LDS Heavenly Father

[Daniel Marsh]

I love this argument. The people who use it as proof against God having a body ignore, either intentionally or because they don't understand the difference, that the argument relies on changing the dynamics of the verse halfway through.

This argument takes the stand that God is a Spirit is a literal meaning of the word. As in, God is a being of spirit and apparently only spirit. (Which ignores the possibility that God could be both a person of spirit and a physical entity. After all, doesn't Christianity believe that God is all-powerful and nothing is beyond His ability?)

Then the second half of the argument relies on taking a metaphorical interpretation of the verse. Because we are not being asked to turn into beings of spirit only and then worship God. If that were the case none of us could worship God. We are beings of both spirit and flesh. And in this instance, we are being asked to call on our spiritual nature to worship.

Literal compared to metaphorical = flawed argument.
We can be physical beings asked to worship in a spiritual nature but God can only be a being of spirit = flawed argument.

And friend, where is your bible verse that says "god has a physical body" in those words.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

No you can't. Things can change in one copy besides not all of the copies agree.

Ok, show significant doctrinal changes from Biblical Manuscripts --- not to be confused with translations.

Also, take into account none of the changes JS made in his bible have maunscript textual support.

" No parallel ancient variants exist for the majority of JST readings. This lack of textual support suggests that the JST does not restore actual textual material.
...
These supposed textual corruptions are inconsistent with what we know of scribal tendencies. For instance, the JST is almost entirely comprised of additions to the KJV. Thus, the corrupting scribes would have had to make massive deletions in the earliest copies of Bible manuscripts
...
Therefore, the tendency of the JST to
expand the KJV text by adding material is the opposite of what we should
expect in a textual restoration
...
Joseph Smith's "Inspired" Revisions to the King James Bible
" https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V19N03_87.pdf

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Yes, these 2 scripture get to the very heart of who Jesus is, see how it changes:
Colossians 1:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

Colossians 1:15 Amplified Bible (AMP)
15 He is the exact living image [the essential manifestation] of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible], the firstborn [the preeminent one, the sovereign, and the originator] of all creation.

Colossians 1:15 The Message (MSG)
Christ Holds It All Together
15 We look at this Son and see the God who cannot be seen. We look at this Son and see God’s original purpose in everything created.

Colossians 1:15 New Life Version (NLV)
15 Christ is as God is. God cannot be seen. Christ lived before anything was made.

At least 2 different doctrines.

One more:

Revelation 3:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Revelation 3:14 Amplified Bible (AMP)
Message to Laodicea
14 “To the angel (divine messenger) of the church in Laodicea write:

“These are the words of the Amen, the trusted and faithful and true Witness, the Beginning and Origin of God’s creation:

Revelation 3:14 New Life Version (NLV)
Words to the Church in Laodicea
14 “Write this to the angel of the church in the city of Laodicea: ‘The One Who says, Let it be so, the One Who is faithful, the One Who tells what is true, the One Who made everything in God’s world, says this:

Revelation 3:14 International Children’s Bible (ICB)
To the Church in Laodicea
14 “Write this to the angel of the church in Laodicea:
“The Amen is the One who is the faithful and true witness. He is the ruler of all that God has made. He says this to you.

Again, very different and can see 2 doctrines.

I'm sure if I had time, I could write a 1000 page book on errors and copy mistakes and translation liberty that would affect the gospel in many ways.

Amplified Bible is nearest to my Hebrew NT in those texts. Write that book.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

A Comparison between the KJV and NASB Bibles

Hi, variants has to do with manuscripts not translations.

What major differences do you see in translations?

Please answer that in a new thread.
LDS - What major translation problems do LDS see in the Bible?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Really? I meant actual translations. You must really be desperate.

Am I correct, you would rule out paraphrases when you say translations.

What methods of transalation would you accept?

Would you refuse for example, TEV?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

So my coming to believe in Jesus as my Savior, and having the Holy Spirit come to me and testify that my belief is true, is no good. And so I am not saved.

But your belief in Jesus Christ and your visit by the Holy Spirit to testify to you that your belief is true, is good? And you are saved.

Do you take a lot upon yourself to declare that someone is not saved because they do not believe all things as you do? Maybe even a little haughty, and prideful.

testify that my belief is true --- I had that experience in Christian Science and it is not true.
One can not depend on feelings to determine what is true.

The Bible tells us to pray for wisdom.

James 1:5
Do any of you need wisdom? Ask God for it. He is generous and enjoys giving to everyone. So he will give you wisdom.

James 3:13-18 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
True Wisdom
13 Are there any among you who are really wise and understanding? Then you should show your wisdom by living right. You should do what is good with humility. A wise person does not boast. 14 If you are selfish and have bitter jealousy in your hearts, you have no reason to boast. Your boasting is a lie that hides the truth. 15 That kind of “wisdom” does not come from God. That “wisdom” comes from the world. It is not spiritual. It is from the devil. 16 Where there is jealousy and selfishness, there will be confusion and every kind of evil. 17 But the wisdom that comes from God is like this: First, it is pure. It is also peaceful, gentle, and easy to please. This wisdom is always ready to help people who have trouble and to do good for others. This wisdom is always fair and honest. 18 People who work for peace in a peaceful way get the blessings that come from right living.

 

[Hammster]

Am I correct, you would rule out paraphrases when you say translations.

What methods of transalation would you accept?

Would you refuse for example, TEV?

I don’t have a problem with dynamic equivalencies like the NIV and NLT. The Message was no different than the JST.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Whose to say, who has the wrong Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

Deuteronomy 13 Common English Bible (CEB)
False prophets and false gods

13 Now if a prophet or a dream interpreter appears among you and performs a sign or wonder for you, 2 and the sign or wonder that was spoken actually occurs; if he says: “Come on! We should follow other gods”—ones you haven’t experienced—“and we should worship them,” 3 you must not listen to that prophet’s or dream interpreter’s words, because the Lord your God is testing you to see if you love the Lord your God with all your mind and all your being. 4 You must follow the Lord your God alone! Revere him! Follow his commandments! Obey his voice! Worship him! Cling to him—no other!

Deuteronomy 18:20-22 Common English Bible (CEB)
20 However, any prophet who arrogantly speaks a word in my name that I haven’t commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods—that prophet must die.

21 Now, you might be wondering, How will we know which word God hasn’t spoken? 22 Here’s the answer: The prophet who speaks in the Lord’s name and the thing doesn’t happen or come about—that’s the word the Lord hasn’t spoken. That prophet spoke arrogantly. Don’t be afraid of him.

The test of following another god or a false god in modern times is basically testing what someone is teaching about God. The Omni doctrines may rule out a god who once was a man.

Supreme Being

All Just

Eternal Being

All Loving

All Perfect

All Merciful
Beneficent Being- All good

All Kind
All Powerful- Omnipotent

All Charitable
All Knowing- Omniscient

All Forgiving
All Good

All Understanding
All Present- Omnipresent


Attributes of God in Christianity - Wikipedia
A Theological Test | CARM.org
The Five Tests of False Doctrine - Tim Challies

 

[Ran77]

And friend, where is your bible verse that says "god has a physical body" in those words.

1. We are not friends.

2. I would never insult God by writing His name in lower case. Even if I felt that the other person was wrong in their beliefs about Him. I just plain have too much respect for Him.

3. My response was to a flawed interpretation of the verse that was previously posted. That is what I am discussing. You are, of course, free to debate any point you like, but you will have to find someone else if you are not addressing the verse in question.

 

[Religiot]

What evidence is there that Heavenly Father was once a man?

None.

 

[Peter1000]

I have no problem with the KJV. My argument was that we don’t need the original autographs to ensure that we have an accurate translation.

There again, you are wrong. The first copy of the original is not 100% correct because of unintentional errors, and intentional add ons or take aways.

Do we even have first copies? Do we rely on second copies? We don't know the answer to that, so how could you possibly say it is perfect and we absolutely know what the original says.

We have a pretty good idea, but the hundreds of translations of the bible into English has shown us that it is pretty easy to get passionate about an ideology and change a translation to reflect our modern feelings.

So the word 'ensure' is inapproriate in this context.

 

[Peter1000]

It is very relevant---this supposed one True Chruch.

It all depends if a false prophet is leading you astray or not.--and in convincing you Jesus is A God, which He is not.

But you cannot seem to get it into your head that is why I left.

If you left because you believe more in the Trinity than in a direct contact with God and Jesus and an eyewitness of their true nature, then I cannot help you just using the bible, because from the bible you can construct many natures of God and Jesus, which there are in the bible.

But again, this we both know: The bible unequivically says that Jesus is our Savior and the Holy Spirit baptizes us to testify of this truth. As we do what Jesus told us to do, we will meet him in heaven and he will make things plain to us, for we will see him as he really is.

 

[Peter1000]

But, we have over 5,000 manuscripts of the Bible.

But again, we don't have one original.

 

[Peter1000]

None.

Do you not believe that man was made in the image and likeness of God?

Do you not believe that Jesus could do nothing except what he saw his Father do?
IOW, what he did, his Father did.
IOW if Jesus is a man, his Father is a man also. (a perfect resurrected, exalted man, lightyears difference between Him and us, but still a man)

 

[Peter1000]

No one on earth has the gold plates.

That is right, the Lord does not want the scholars to argue over the interpretation of what JS did. It saves the BOM from what the bible has gone through.

The BOM says what God wants it to say and then the plates were taken back. No nonsense with critical examination and squables with translation accuracy. A perfect plan.

 

[Hammster]

There again, you are wrong. The first copy of the original is not 100% correct because of unintentional errors, and intentional add ons or take aways.

Do we even have first copies? Do we rely on second copies? We don't know the answer to that, so how could you possibly say it is perfect and we absolutely know what the original says.

We have a pretty good idea, but the hundreds of translations of the bible into English has shown us that it is pretty easy to get passionate about an ideology and change a translation to reflect our modern feelings.

So the word 'ensure' is inapproriate in this context.

It is. We have so many manuscripts available that we can determine what the authors intended to communicate, and we can even determine those intentional add-ons. I understand that because of your theology you can never admit it. But it doesn’t change the truth.

 

[Peter1000]

It is. We have so many manuscripts available that we can determine what the authors intended to communicate, and we can even determine those intentional add-ons. I understand that because of your theology you can never admit it. But it doesn’t change the truth.

Without the originals, your doctors and scholars can guess all they want and may never come to the truth. They may come close, is that good enough?

 

[Peter1000]

It is. We have so many manuscripts available that we can determine what the authors intended to communicate, and we can even determine those intentional add-ons. I understand that because of your theology you can never admit it. But it doesn’t change the truth.

One word can change the entire meaning of a doctrine.

For instance, the KJV says that God is a spirit. The NASB says that God is spirit.

Tell me what the difference is in these 2 scriptures both of which are John 4:24? Then tell me how a take-away changes the doctrine?

 

[drstevej]

They may come close, is that good enough?

Beats a rock in a hat.

 

[Peter1000]

Beats a rock in a hat.

If through a rock in the hat you get to the original, then I take a rock in the hat.