Heaven

[truthshift]

So, you're a christian. There you are. Saved, doing the right thing, and basically ready to go whenever.

You get to heaven, so does much of your family. However, many many many of your friends, acquaintances, and even some of your family did not make it to heaven.

It's ok though, they got what was coming to them.

You're safe in heaven; spending every moment of consciousness glorifying the god that allowed you to be there.

You get to spend eternity there, with the full knowledge that so many people, many whom you have loved are being tortured and in constant agony for all eternity... and there is nothing you can do about it.

Sounds like a great place.

 

[Washington]

So, you're a christian. There you are. Saved, doing the right thing, and basically ready to go whenever.

You get to heaven, so does much of your family. However, many many many of your friends, acquaintances, and even some of your family did not make it to heaven.

It's ok though, they got what was coming to them.

You're safe in heaven; spending every moment of consciousness glorifying the god that allowed you to be there.

You get to spend eternity there, with the full knowledge that so many people, many whom you have loved are being tortured and in constant agony for all eternity... and there is nothing you can do about it.

Sounds like a great place.

I once heard of heavenly existence described as being on an eternal high; (not that the speaker had any idea, of course) a place where thoughts of the ugly and suffering never have a chance to enter the mind, and if they do, one simply doesn't have the will to care. In effect, the eternal bliss makes the suffering of others inconsequential. Pretty much how a lot of people exist today amid all the suffering in the world. "Please! Let's change the subject. Hey! look at that babe over there."

 

[truthshift]

I once heard of heavenly existence described as being on an eternal high; (not that the speaker had any idea, of course) a place where thoughts of the ugly and suffering never have a chance to enter the mind, and if they do, one simply doesn't have the will to care. In effect, the eternal bliss makes the suffering of others inconsequential. Pretty much how a lot of people exist today amid all the suffering in the world. "Please! Let's change the subject. Hey! look at that babe over there."

Which makes one ask: would a christian be ok with being unable to remember or care about loved ones whom are suffering after entering heaven. Does that not make them an uncaring person now?

 

[Washington]

Which makes one ask: would a christian be ok with being unable to remember or care about loved ones whom are suffering after entering heaven. Does that not make them an uncaring person now?

I think they'd claim they would care, but be secretly glad that's the way heaven works. Does it make them an uncaring person now? Of course, but they'd never admit it, particularly to themselves. I think a lot of Christianity involves compartmentalizing various facets of belief and closing doors on the more disagreeable ones. If I were to go Christian it would certainly involve a lot of closed doors. Many, many doors.

 

[BlackSabb]

So, you're a christian. There you are. Saved, doing the right thing, and basically ready to go whenever.

You get to heaven, so does much of your family. However, many many many of your friends, acquaintances, and even some of your family did not make it to heaven.

It's ok though, they got what was coming to them.

You're safe in heaven; spending every moment of consciousness glorifying the god that allowed you to be there.

You get to spend eternity there, with the full knowledge that so many people, many whom you have loved are being tortured and in constant agony for all eternity... and there is nothing you can do about it.

Sounds like a great place.

I've thought about this too. It's a good question-a difficult one too.

I'm not sure if in Heaven we will have "brothers", "sisters", "husbands", "wives" etc. I think there will be just one great big body of people, all perfectly and equally interelated to one another. Everyone will be "friends", nobody will be a bloodline of someone else. Even Jesus said that there will be no marriage in Heaven.

The Bible also says that the memories of former things will be wiped away. You won't miss a friend or family member because those memories will be gone, and everyone else will be a perfect spiritual family in eternity.

I'm not a theologian, but that's my understanding of it.

 

[cantata]

The Bible also says that the memories of former things will be wiped away. You won't miss a friend or family member because those memories will be gone, and everyone else will be a perfect spiritual family in eternity.

It's ironic, then, that we spend all our earthly existence struggling to be good, but then as soon as we get to heaven we don't have to bother being good any more because we don't even have to empathise with anyone, let alone help them.

 

[Verv]

I do not like speculating on the nature of heaven or of hell; I take what is given there and some things are for us to know and others are not for us to know.

The most ironic part of all of this is that we have atheists choosing the images and ideas they have of heaven and hell on very hard line interpretations; they are doing the best to paint a picture of injustice and suffering and impossibility.

It is kind of dishonest.

 

[BlackSabb]

It's ironic, then, that we spend all our earthly existence struggling to be good, but then as soon as we get to heaven we don't have to bother being good any more because we don't even have to empathise with anyone, let alone help them.

Where did you get all that from my post? You have taken my words waaaay out of context.

But now that you've brought it up, why would you need to "help" anyone in Heaven?

Because someone's going through a hard time? Hard day at work? Not feeling well?

 

[cantata]

I do not like speculating on the nature of heaven or of hell; I take what is given there and some things are for us to know and others are not for us to know.

The most ironic part of all of this is that we have atheists choosing the images and ideas they have of heaven and hell on very hard line interpretations; they are doing the best to paint a picture of injustice and suffering and impossibility.

It is kind of dishonest.

Well, not really - given that most of us are just responding to the images we have been presented with, or else we're just trying to draw seemingly innocuous notions to their logical conclusions.

I find it disturbing that some people really do take those hard lines, because I can't imagine why they'd want to worship a god who is so unjust. I have no quarrel with people who believe in a genuinely loving god, so why would I bother talking to them about their afterlife concepts?

 

[cantata]

Where did you get all that from my post? You have taken my words waaaay out of context. Where did I say that you don't have to help anyone?

But now that you've brought it up, why would you need to "help" anyone in Heaven?

Because someone's going through a hard time? Hard day at work? Not feeling well?

That's exactly my point, though, BlackSabb.

The impression I get is that you and I are supposed to strive for moral perfection. Yet as soon as we get to heaven, we don't need moral perfection any more.

Yet of course there are lots of people who need help outside of heaven - the people still on earth, and the people in Hell, if you believe in it. I find it weird that all the most morally upstanding people are being wasted in heaven, where they can't help people or even remember that there are people to be helped. Do you see my point?

 

[BlackSabb]

That's exactly my point, though, BlackSabb.

The impression I get is that you and I are supposed to strive for moral perfection.

Not quite correct. You don't strive for "moral perfection" because no Christian can ever be morally perfect. That is the whole reason for the sacrifice of Jesus. He was the perfect sacrifice so that anyone who accepted him would be forgiven. If you could be morally perfect, there would be no need for Jesus.

What you do strive for is to be Christlike, which yes, does involve morals.

Yet as soon as we get to heaven, we don't need moral perfection any more.

Well firstly, I never actually said that. But now that you've brought it up, once in Heaven, you will be perfect. There will be no more adversary or sin to tempt us.

Yet of course there are lots of people who need help outside of heaven - the people still on earth, and the people in Hell, if you believe in it.

Well, the traditional Christian belief is that once in Hell, there is no escape. It is for eternity. So there is no point in "helping" them.

I find it weird that all the most morally upstanding people are being wasted in heaven, where they can't help people or even remember that there are people to be helped. Do you see my point?

Yes and no. If you don't understand that in Heaven there will be perfection, then yes, I understand you. But like I said before, if Heaven is perfect and there is no more death, suffering, temptation, decay etc, then nobody needs any "help".

 

[cantata]

Not quite correct. You don't strive for "moral perfection" because no Christian can ever be morally perfect. That is the whole reason for the sacrifice of Jesus. He was the perfect sacrifice so that anyone who accepted him would be forgiven. If you could be morally perfect, there would be no need for Jesus.

What you do strive for is to be Christlike, which yes, does involve morals.

I was under the impression that you are meant to strive for moral perfection, even though you won't be able to achieve it.

We're supposed to try to be good in some sense of the word, anyway, which is my point at the moment.

Well firstly, I never actually said that. But now that you've brought it up, once in Heaven, you will be perfect. There will be no more adversary or sin to tempt us.

I know you didn't say it. I said it.

Yes, in heaven, one will be perfect, but what is the use of a morally perfect person who has no opportunity to help people? We do good not simply by abstaining from evil acts but by doing good acts. There will be no opportunity for good acts in heaven if there is no suffering. So I think that calling the people in heaven "perfect" is rather misleading.

Well, the traditional Christian belief is that once in Hell, there is no escape. It is for eternity. So there is no point in "helping" them.

I expect you don't need me to tell you that I consider a god who would permit such evil to be utterly unworthy of worship.

If the people in heaven were really morally perfect, I'd expect them to try to bust those sinners outta hell.

Yes and no. If you don't understand that in Heaven there will be perfection, then yes, I understand you. But like I said before, if Heaven is perfect and there is no more death, suffering, temptation, decay etc, then nobody needs any "help".

People on earth need help. People in hell need help.

How can it be morally righteous to just forget about the suffering of others (even if you can't do anything about it)? How can it be morally righteous to strive to get to a place where you will forget about the suffering of others, including friends, family members, and other loved ones?

 

[BlackSabb]

I was under the impression that you are meant to strive for moral perfection, even though you won't be able to achieve it.

We're supposed to try to be good in some sense of the word, anyway, which is my point at the moment.

Yes, you are to strive to be morally "perfect". But by "perfection", I simply am implying to seek and strive and pray and be the most Christlike as a person can be. Regardless, you will never be regarded as perfect by God. His perfection is Jesus.

But I understand what you're saying.

Yes, in heaven, one will be perfect, but what is the use of a morally perfect person who has no opportunity to help people? We do good not simply by abstaining from evil acts but by doing good acts. There will be no opportunity for good acts in heaven if there is no suffering. So I think that calling the people in heaven "perfect" is rather misleading.

Well, who said there will be no opportunites to do anything in Heaven? Most Christians believe that there will be work to do in Heaven. So, by help, that could imply assisting one another.

I'm just going by my idea of "help", with the suggestion that someone is hurting, suffering, in pain etc. No, in Heaven, no one will need that sort of "help". But yes, in Heaven, there will be work to do, responsibilites, various tasks etc. So we can still "help" one another in that respect.

And besides cantata. Which world do you prefer to live in? A world in which there is suffering, poverty, crime, hate etc but you get the satisfaction of helping someone? Or a world free of all that and so there is no more need to help anyone?

I know which one I prefer.

I expect you don't need me to tell you that I consider a god who would permit such evil to be utterly unworthy of worship.

Well, and I'm sure you've heard this before, "permitting evil" is all a part of free will. We weren't created to be robots who mindlessly obeyed God. Humanity has a free choice. It's not God's fault if people reject him and go their own way, bringing evil into the world. This is all the spectrum of free will.

However, evil will not reign forever.

If the people in heaven were really morally perfect, I'd expect them to try to bust those sinners outta hell.

Well cantata. Become a Christian, go to Heaven and give it your best shot.

People on earth need help. People in hell need help.

How can it be morally righteous to just forget about the suffering of others (even if you can't do anything about it)? How can it be morally righteous to strive to get to a place where you will forget about the suffering of others, including friends, family members, and other loved ones?

Like I said, if God wipes away memory of all former things, you won't know about anyone in Hell. And earth is no more, so there is no one to help there either. As I say, this is going by the traditonal concept of Hell. Not all Christians believe in the traditional concept of Hell.

 

[cantata]

Yes, you are to strive to be morally "perfect". But by "perfection", I simply am implying to seek and strive and pray and be the most Christlike as a person can be. Regardless, you will never be regarded as perfect by God. His perfection is Jesus.

But I understand what you're saying.

Thanks.

Well, who said there will be no opportunites to do anything in Heaven? Most Christians believe that there will be work to do in Heaven. So, by help, that could imply assisting one another.

I'm just going by my idea of "help", with the suggestion that someone is hurting, suffering, in pain etc. No, in Heaven, no one will need that sort of "help". But yes, in Heaven, there will be work to do, responsibilites, various tasks etc. So we can still "help" one another in that respect.

Will the tasks be arduous?

I understand "doing good" to mean taking a degree of suffering upon oneself for the sake of another person. If there is no suffering in heaven, I don't think people can be good there.

It's an interesting question, anyway.

And besides cantata. Which world do you prefer to live in? A world in which there is suffering, poverty, crime, hate etc but you get the satisfaction of helping someone? Or a world free of all that and so there is no more need to help anyone?

I know which one I prefer.

I'm not talking about where I prefer, though, but about the meaningfulness of calling people "perfect" who never have the opportunity to do good.

Of course I would rather that there was no suffering at all, anywhere. But in such a place, I do not think there is room for ethics.

Well, and I'm sure you've heard this before, "permitting evil" is all a part of free will. We weren't created to be robots who mindlessly obeyed God. Humanity has a free choice. It's not God's fault if people reject him and go their own way, bringing evil into the world. This is all the spectrum of free will.

However, evil will not reign forever.

Will it reign forever in Hell?

Is the existence of Hell really necessary in order for human beings to be free?

Well cantata. Become a Christian, go to Heaven and give it your best shot.

I think God might notice if I was faking it to undermine him

Like I said, if God wipes away memory of all former things, you won't know about anyone in Hell. And earth is no more, so there is no one to help there either. As I say, this is going by the traditonal concept of Hell. Not all Christians believe in the traditional concept of Hell.

Yes, but my point is that it strikes me as distinctly unrighteous to desire to go somewhere where your memory of the suffering of others will be removed.

 

[CreedIsChrist]

So, you're a christian. There you are. Saved, doing the right thing, and basically ready to go whenever.

You get to heaven, so does much of your family. However, many many many of your friends, acquaintances, and even some of your family did not make it to heaven.

It's ok though, they got what was coming to them.

You're safe in heaven; spending every moment of consciousness glorifying the god that allowed you to be there.

You get to spend eternity there, with the full knowledge that so many people, many whom you have loved are being tortured and in constant agony for all eternity... and there is nothing you can do about it.

Sounds like a great place.

and here we have another person who is prideful enough to think he understands the things of God and his plan, and who thinks his mind even has the capacity to understand an eternal omnipresent God, let alone his justice and mercy.

 

[cantata]

and here we have another person who is prideful enough to think he understands the things of God and his plan, and who thinks his mind even has the capacity to understand an eternal omnipresent God, let alone his justice and mercy.

Are these questions not important to you, then?

 

[stan1980]

I do not like speculating on the nature of heaven or of hell.

Yes, same here, when people talk about heaven and hell I get the distinct impression they are making it up as they go along, whilst simultaneously making themselves sound completely and utterly absurd, as seen in this thread *winks@BlackSabb*

I don't think, however, there is anything wrong with atheists pointing out that these common interpretations do sound absurd.

Credit to you though, jmverville, for avoiding giving your own interpretation and more or less saying we can't know, I think I think I'd do exactly the same in your shoes.

 

[truthshift]

I do not like speculating on the nature of heaven or of hell; I take what is given there and some things are for us to know and others are not for us to know.

The most ironic part of all of this is that we have atheists choosing the images and ideas they have of heaven and hell on very hard line interpretations; they are doing the best to paint a picture of injustice and suffering and impossibility.

It is kind of dishonest.

It's hardly dishonest. I assume that you're an intelligent person and you must face yourself with this question. What we understand of heaven comes from the same place that you get your understanding of heaven.

It's merely speculation as to what it is like based on what we know. You honestly have to ask yourself if you're ok with having all knowledge of friends and family wiped from memory, which would mean you don't really care about them now. Or if you're ok with them suffering for eternity while you are in heaven for eternity with no ability to do anything, which could potentially make you a sadist.

There is no twist on what heaven is. I never described what heaven would be like in regards of sensory information or went into detail about what kind of activities would take place there. I went from what I read in the bible. The same bible that everyone reads.

Regardless of what it's like; the reality of those two understandings of heaven/hell is still there.

They will be in hell for eternity.
You will be in heaven for eternity.
It will not change, ever.
Do you not care for them now?
or will heaven be a sad place?

 

[AmericanChristian91]

I fear that i will lose my individuality and free will in heaven. If God told me to do something in heaven would i do it with no questions asked? I probably would.

Also since i would know people who are not going heaven i would feel sad, but i thought there was no sadness in heaven?

Why is there no sadness in heaven? What if i like being sad?

So if we cant get sad anymore then i believe there are 2 scenarios of what will happen to us so we wont get sad about people we knew.

1. Our memories about them will be erased, also any memories that have sadness in them will cease to exist.

I hate this option because memories is one of the things that makes me unique and one of the things that makes me me.

2. God will make it so that we do not get sad even though we remember the sad memories in our past.

I dont like this option since i believe sadness shows compassion and is one of the things that makes us human. By not being able to be sad i would start to be losing my humanity which i dont want to lose and which one of the things i care about.

Also i know our bodies will rot on earth but would we get bodies that look like our old bodies? One of the amazing thing about the human body is that every person's body is unique and looks different which helps create our Identity. But what if all the new bodies are all the same? Also will all people be equal in heaven? We know that some people are stronger, faster, smarter, then certain people. And many of these thing are worked on in life so that they can be improved. It is one of the things that makes people unique from each other. Also will there be Privacy in heaven? I dont think so since what would we have to hide? After all it seems your mind would be open to all and you wont even be able to think privetaly.

Also about hobbies. Hobbies here on Earth is one of the things that makes humans unique from each other. Im sure we lose our Hobbies in heaven to.

So the person who i was on Earth will cease to exist when i get to heaven. That person would be dead, lost in the sands of time

Whats the use of living when you have become a drone and have no free will? Your just apart of the big blob.

 

[Beanieboy]

So, you're a christian. There you are. Saved, doing the right thing, and basically ready to go whenever.

You get to heaven, so does much of your family. However, many many many of your friends, acquaintances, and even some of your family did not make it to heaven.

It's ok though, they got what was coming to them.

You're safe in heaven; spending every moment of consciousness glorifying the god that allowed you to be there.

You get to spend eternity there, with the full knowledge that so many people, many whom you have loved are being tortured and in constant agony for all eternity... and there is nothing you can do about it.

Sounds like a great place.

For people that have hatred for others, who can only enjoy something if others can't, yes, this is their version of heaven.

I don't think that heaven is like that at all. People have strange ideas of heaven.

One time in my class, I asked people to describe heaven. They said that you are never cold, never sick, never hungry, never alone, never sad. I said, "so, it's kind of like a sunny day every day, right?" They said, "exactly." I said, "have you ever watched a movie where there is no conflict? No problem to overcome, no enemy, no good vs bad? Things just are?" They said, "Yeah." What did you think of it?" They said, "It was really boring. Ohhhhhhhh whoa....."

But, I think we become one with God, and become love - all of us.