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Heaven?

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Hidden Manna

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Another example of man changing the meaning of God’s time words is in Amos. God warned Israel the time had come for her to be judged, 8:2-3. In spite of the warnings Israel “put far off the evil day.” In spite of God’s warning that judgment was at hand they insisted “All things continue as they were,” They refused to believe God meant “the end has come.” As a result God said “Woe” to them for putting of His words! 6:3. As we have just seen if God do not keep the when part of the time statements then He has not kept his promise! Jehovah would not tolerate this interpretation of His time statements. He rebukes it Himself in scripture.

Most honest students of the Bible already realize that the New Testament is full of time statements that point to an imminent last days of the Old Covenant. Once Scripture is allowed to speak for itself, one cannot honestly deny the overwhelming amount of Scripture passages which declare that the last day prophecies were to “shortly come to pass.” By listing these numerous verses, we can see that the first century saints believed they were living in the last days of the Old Covenant. Peter specifies. “Who (Christ) verily was fore ordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.” (1 Peter 1:20)

The apostle John made a similar statement: 1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. Here, the same word “eschatos” is used for “last.” However, the Greek word for “time” is slightly different, though very related: it is the Greek word “hora” defined by Strong’s as: 5610. hora, ho’-rah; appar. a prim. word; an “hour” (lit. or fig.):--day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.

John believed they were in the last or farthest season or hour of the Jewish age.

Peter specifies the range of this period, commonly called the “last days,” in his sermon in Acts 2:16-21. He declares that, it was fulfilling the prophecy of (Joel 2:28-32). What is significant about Peter’s statement is that he was claiming that they were in the last days. The writer of Hebrews expressed this identical sentiment as he began his discourse comparing the fading Old Covenant with the Everlasting New Covenant:

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, {2} Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Jesus was manifested, not at the beginning, or start of the last days but “during the last days.” The period between A.D. 30 and 70 is, as the apostle Peter describes it, “these last times” (1 Peter 1:20).

“Hath in these last days” the writer confirms. Without any speculation those in the first century believed they were in the last days. Certainly the writers of the New Testament were very aware of those passages we have studied involving the last days of Judah and Jerusalem. Therefore it is safe and logical to say that the New Testament writers believed that they were in the last days of the Jewish age.

The apostle John made this time statement: 1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. Here, the same word “eschatos” is used for “last.” However, the Greek word for “time” is slightly different, though very related: it is the Greek word “hora” defined by Strong’s as: 5610. hora, ho’-rah; appar. a prim. word; an “hour” (lit. or fig.):--day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.

John believed they were in the last or farthest season or hour of the Jewish age. Paul believed the same:

Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. There are two different Greek words used here translated as “time.” In the first cause Paul says “knowing the time.” The Greek word here is “2540. kairos, kahee-ros’; of uncert. affin.; an occasion, i.e. set or proper time:--X always, opportunity, (convenient, due) season, (due, short, while) time, a while. Comp. G5550.” Strong’s.

In the second clause Paul uses the phrase “high time.” “High time” is the same Greek word used in first John. Both Paul and John firmly believed that they were in the last time or days of the Jewish age. Paul believed they were living in the end of the Jewish age as well: 1 Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the age are come.

Paul was describing the history of the Jews and their rebellion against God in the wilderness. We should not ignore the fact that Paul, in discussing the ancient rebellion which took place in the wilderness says it was written for their admonition, upon whom the ends of the age are come.

New consider the time statements of James as he addressed the unbelieving Jews: James 5:1-4 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth eaten. Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. Clearly James taught that these men were in the last days.

Jude, in describing the same group of unbelieving Jews, also speaks of this period, although with a different phrase: But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. (Jude 1:17-18)

The word “time” is the Greek word chronos, defined by Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance as: 5550. chronos, khron’-os; a space of time. The word “last” is defined as: 2078. eschatos, es’-khat-os; a superl. prob. from G2192 (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time):--ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost. Certainly we can conclude from Jude that they were in the farthest or uttermost space of time of the Jewish age. They were in the last days of the Jewish state.

The impression of the Apostles is the nearness of ‘the end’ is worthy of notice that there is a marked gradation in the language of the different epistles. Going from know that in the last days perilous times will come To the last times and the last times became the last days, and the last days become the last hour [escath wra esti]. The period of expectation and delay was now over and the decisive moment was at hand. “And that, knowing the time.. The night is far spent, the day is at hand. (“Romans 13:11-12)

There are many other passages that could be used to support the fact that the first-century believers and particularly the apostles believed unanimously that they were in the end of the Jewish age or the last days of the Jewish age. The fact is that anytime Scripture uses the phase “last days” it means, a period from 30-70 AD. This was the period during which the Apostles were preaching and writing, the “last days” of Old Covenant Israel before it was forever destroyed in the destruction of the Temple (and the Old Covenant sacrificial system) not the end of the world or physical universe.
 
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elman

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Hidden Manna said:
I'm glad you can see it elman


The Revelation of Jesus Christ


I believe that the revelation of Jesus Christ and His Kingdom that came was all about the destruction of the temple and system of keeping the law. What is also very much of His revealing and coming in glory as the Father did is this. The Father came and revealed Himself through Jesus Christ, now Jesus comes to us as the Father came to Jesus, Jesus now lives in and through us and reveals Himself to others in the world. Not only that but so true believers can still enjoy the fellowship of Jesus who is a life-giving Spirit that lives within them.

If the old temple was never destroyed putting an end to the system of types and shadows, Jesus would have been a false prophet and everyone in the Church would be just playing a role as hypocrites.

I believe that the revealing of Jesus Christ and complete salvation was all based on bringing the old system to an end, just like any nation when at war after winning would go and tear down the defeated enemies temple to show that their God or god was greater.

This is why we live in a new heaven and earth because a new covenant was made at the cross and then came into full effect in AD 70 when the revealing of Jesus Christ took place because the old types and shadows were completely gone forever.
I don't disagree with any of this. I think the old law was also based on love for your neighbor but many missed that as the central theam. That has always been the message from God and the way to spiritual life.
 
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He put me back together

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I think the Scriptures are pretty clear, at least on pictures, be they literal or figurative, that they wish to paint.

The Kingdom, in the end, is not seen in heaven.

Ever.

It is seen descending from heaven, but is never ultimately in heaven.

In the end, there is a new heaven, a new earth, and no sea. To ancient men, this means everything is made new, because to them, there was nothing else. The stars, planets, moons, asteroids, meteors, comets, and other objects that modern man looks to as seperate entities were all part of heaven to these people. There were 3 things in their geography: Earth, the sky (which we call heaven), and the sea. So, when God gives them a prophecy of 2 of these made anew and one abolished, everything has changed. In this picture, those who take part in the first ressurection have communion with Yahweh on the new earth, not in heaven. What the new earth entails, however, is always up for debate.
 
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oskar

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He put me back together said:
The Kingdom, in the end, is not seen in heaven. Ever. It is seen descending from heaven, but is never ultimately in heaven.

(...)

... those who take part in the first ressurection have communion with Yahweh on the new earth, not in heaven.

I would like to add an important remark: Jesus was taken to heaven to His Father and before he was taken he told his disciples that he was going to prepare places in heaven for them. And they will be together with Him in heaven where He is. (John 17:24)

The question is: Who will be in heaven and who will be on earth after resurrection? :)
 
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He put me back together

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Where is heaven in John 17:24? ;)

Are you perhaps referring to this Scripture as well?

John 14 said:
2 "In My Father's house are many staying places. And if not, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I shall come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, you might be too.
4 "And where I go you know, and the way you know."
5 T'oma said to Him, "Master, we do not know where You are going, and how are we able to know the way?"
6 Yeshua said to him, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
 
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He put me back together

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oskar said:
I mentioned 17:24 because of "I wish that where I am they also may be with me". Where is Jesus now?
Where were the apostles, when Jesus had ascended?
Where will the apostles be after the ressurection?

I see only 2 ways to interpret this:

When Jesus ascended to heaven, He went to prepare a place.
When Jesus suffered the punishment for our sins, he was preparing the place.

In either case, of course, many of us are familiar with the great ressemblance that John 14 has to a Jewish groom building a dwelling place for his wife--but in the former, the bride herself, and that which is prepared, descends to the "new earth" (again, whatever it is that the new earth refers to in truth) Neither the bride, nor her dwelling place are seen, be it literal or figurative, on the earth.

In the latter, the preparation was not made in heaven in the first place--rather, the place that is prepared is communion with God.

Any which way you look at it, the bride of Christ, literally or figuratively, does not ultimately dwell in the sky. This is the case, whether one believes that the dead in Christ ascend to heaven to be with him, and will descend at the end to retrieve a glorified body, if one believes that all the dead are in a "sleeping state" at which some will be raised to honor, some to dishonor, or if one believes that the Kingdom has already come. Backwards, forwards, or upside down, we live on the Earth.

The unknown portion is what exactly the New Earth pertains to. What is definite, however, is that the New Earth is not necessarily a planet, or some place on a planet--the word "Earth" has never (literally) refered to a planet in any corner or snippet from any place in the Scriptures, by any stretch of the imagination--and until quite recently, the word "Earth" hasn't done so, even in the English language.
 
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oskar

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He put me back together said:
What is definite, however, is that the New Earth is not necessarily a planet, or some place on a planet...

I agree that the New Earth does not necessarily mean a planet. Just as the new heaven (or heaven as such) does not mean the clouds around the planet Earth. Just as the sea (which will disappear with the old earth and the old heaven) does not mean waves and water.

The new earth are the resurrected people (non-Christians) who will live in physical bodies while the new heaven includes the resurrected Christians transformed to spiritual bodies. The new heaven will govern (or rather serve, the new earth in rightousness. The resurrected Christians in heaven will be the kings and priest of the new mankind on earth. The "descending" of the kingdom, Jerusalem, temple etc. from heaven to earth means that it is re-established and governed from above.

What is interesting is that the old earth and the old heaven will have to be removed. Why? And who are those represented by the old heaven, old earth and by the sea (which will not be any more)?
 
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unbound

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oskar said:
I agree that the New Earth does not necessarily mean a planet. Just as the new heaven (or heaven as such) does not mean the clouds around the planet Earth. Just as the sea (which will disappear with the old earth and the old heaven) does not mean waves and water.

The new earth are the resurrected people (non-Christians) who will live in physical bodies while the new heaven includes the resurrected Christians transformed to spiritual bodies. The new heaven will govern (or rather serve, the new earth in rightousness. The resurrected Christians in heaven will be the kings and priest of the new mankind on earth. The "descending" of the kingdom, Jerusalem, temple etc. from heaven to earth means that it is re-established and governed from above.

What is interesting is that the old earth and the old heaven will have to be removed. Why? And who are those represented by the old heaven, old earth and by the sea (which will not be any more)?

The old earth and old heaven is turned into the lake of fire in Revelation. It is the firmament which is before the throne, held apart by the four spirits.

The Lake of fire is for satan to be destroyed in.

2 Peter 3:7
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 
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He put me back together

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oskar said:
I agree that the New Earth does not necessarily mean a planet. Just as the new heaven (or heaven as such) does not mean the clouds around the planet Earth. Just as the sea (which will disappear with the old earth and the old heaven) does not mean waves and water.

The new earth are the resurrected people (non-Christians) who will live in physical bodies while the new heaven includes the resurrected Christians transformed to spiritual bodies. The new heaven will govern (or rather serve, the new earth in rightousness. The resurrected Christians in heaven will be the kings and priest of the new mankind on earth. The "descending" of the kingdom, Jerusalem, temple etc. from heaven to earth means that it is re-established and governed from above.

What is interesting is that the old earth and the old heaven will have to be removed. Why? And who are those represented by the old heaven, old earth and by the sea (which will not be any more)?
Well, I was speaking about literal terms. While it is true that the heavens and the sea may be figurative demonstrations of something else, it is definite that, in a literal sense, heaven is the sky, and the sea is water.

But you already know that :)

The mistake I made was saying without explanation that earth wasn't part of a planet, because dry ground certainly is--the ancients just didn't know that it was, that's all. It's all about seeing what the language says to those who actually spoke it, and then interpreting what that language says in our modern way of things. That's just to get the literal part--it's the other half of the work of the translators. The Holy Spirit is the One who will teach us all things. So, when we see the Earth and the heavens renewed, it is imperative to understand that this doesn't particularly translate to "The planet in which we live is renewed," even in a literal sense, because they didn't see things as parts of a planet! To the ancient man, this is a demonstration of the universe being reformed. And again, what that actually means is a mystery, or at least a debate.

With all that in light...I can't see how you could possibly come to that conclusion :D :) Where do you get this meaning for the new heaven?
 
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