Xanadu13 said:
Well in my opinion as stated in isaiah (future) and in revelation the new heaven and earth will come after the wrath of God at the end of the tribulation. And no im not referring to heaven being "pie in the sky" as it is my understanding that as the spiritul realm is invisible to us so is heaven in our current bodies.
And on the idea that the Kingdom is here, i do not see the things promised to the Jews fulfilled yet.
How can Isaiah have meant something from the future when he was talking about the heavens being planted by the children of Israel coming out of Egypt and God establishing the law?
The wrath of God was what happened to the jews in the first century and because of their rejecting Jesus. The temple and city being destroyed was a sign of Christ coming and set up His Kingdom in the spiritual realm.
Three and a half years before Jerusalem was destroyed the Romans were at war against Israel then the end of the then know world came to an end.
Quote: it is my understanding that as the spiritul realm is invisible to us so is heaven in our current bodies.
The bodies you are refering to is not bodies but body. The body of Moses which was in type the body of Christ of the old covenant saints, they were resurrected into the body of Christ when the old covenant system was destroyed in AD 70. Check this tread out with only two postings about What was the Bodily Resurrection:
http://www.christianforums.com/t1709510-what-is-the-bodily-resurrection.html
Quote: i do not see the things promised to the Jews fulfilled yet.
Most of the promises that you mean were fulfilled before Christ even came the first time right after the children of Israel came out of Babylon and then the temple was re-built and then destroyed Jesus like Jesus said it would be in Luke 21:20-24.
Read this artical.I found at New Jerusalem Ministries Forum
http://newjerusalemministriesboards.com/index.php?
Drop in sometime we would be glad to share with you. But raed this first.
Israel Reborn or Judged
I never thought of the Jews in our day fulfilling any Bible prophecy because they are not the biblical Jews or Israel that is in the Bible.
1948 Israel?
The reestablishment of the state of Israel in 1948 is considered to be the most important sign that the second coming is near. One of the great problems with this dispensational view is that there is no rebirth of Israel or rebuilt temple mentioned anywhere in the New Testament. Nor is the supposed re-gathering of the Jews to their homeland. This is puzzling, because if the rebirth of Israel is the super sign, you would think it would be very prominent in prophetic passages such as Matt. 24 and Revelation. It simply is not.
There is only one passage that dispensationalists point to that they say speaks of the rebirth of Israel and that is in Matt. 24.
Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.
The thought is that the fig tree represents a re-born Israel. However, other passages in the New Testament cast doubt upon this interpretation. In Matthew 24s parallel passage in Luke 21 Jesus says to look at the fig tree and all the trees. When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near (Luke 21:29-30). Are we talking about the rebirth of many nations here? It is far more logical to assume that Jesus was merely using the fig tree(s) as an object lesson.
Moreover, other passages that could associate Israel with a fig tree always speak of judgment and never of any sort of rebirth.
Now in the morning, as He returned to the city, He was hungry. And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, Let no fruit grow on you ever again. Immediately the fig tree withered away.
And when the disciples saw it, they marveled, saying, How did the fig tree wither away so soon?
So Jesus answered and said to them, Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, Be removed and be cast into the sea, it will be done. Matthew 21:18-21
Most scholars believe this particular fig tree did represent Old Covenant Israel. It was about to pass away and never bear fruit again. Jesus was not just mad because he wanted some figs and could not get any. Moreover, never again means never again.
Furthermore, when Jesus said that if they had faith and did not doubt, they would not only do what was done to the fig tree, but they could also say to this mountain Be removed and be cast into the sea, and it would be done. Was Jesus given them permission to tear up actual mountains and cast them into the sea? No, He was talking about something spiritual.
For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. (For they could not endure what was commanded: And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow. And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.)
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Hebrews 12:18-24
If they had faith, they would see the Old Covenant which was represented by Mount Sinai torn up and cast away. And indeed it was.
Let us consider another parable with a fig tree.
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. And He began telling this parable: A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground? And he answered and said to him, Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down. (Luke 9:3-9)
Obviously, the fig tree is not a nation about to be reborn, but one that was about to be judged, and indeed it was. It is interesting that Jesus probably told this parable in the third year of His ministry.
Next we must look at the covenantal implications of the rebirth of Israel. Gods promise to give the Jews the land of Israel as their inheritance was an Old Covenant promise. This begs the question is the Old Covenant still in effect? If we say it passed away with the coming of the New Covenant, then so did the promise of the land.
However, if we say that it is still in effect for the Jews, we still run into problems. In the scriptures the promise that the Jews would hold the land of Israel was conditional. Deuteronomy 28 tells us If you are not careful to do all the words of this law
you shall be plucked off the land that you are entering to take possession of it, And the LORD will scatter you among all the peoples, from one end of the earth to the other.
If the people who now live in Israel are not keeping the Law of Moses (and they cant be. The Mosaic Law ceased to be observed in AD. 70, and it has never been observed in full since.), how can we say that God has given them the land back?
Even if you say that Gods covenant with Abraham to give the Jews the physical land of Israel is still in effect, look what the Bible says are Gods conditions for remembering His promise.
But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me, and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember; I will remember the land, Leviticus 26:40-42.
Did the Jews meet this condition before the 1948 re-gathering? No! This dispensational view essentially makes God a liar!
