Heaven, Hell, and ...?

[Bethwhite]

Beth,

I'm not the one who decides who should go where. I wouldn't want that job. But I just trust that God is wise enough to figure that out. To say there are only two options limits God pretty severly.

God is the One who said there are only two options.

 

[Dwylcs]

Yes, I have often thought this.

Heaven and hell are two extremes, polar opposites. But they are not the ONLY options. I've met plenty of people who really don't fit in either of those categories. I believe God is wise enough to find appropriate options that there can be justice for everyone.

This might help:
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1 Peter 3:18-20


…

 

[Bethwhite]

This might help:
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1 Peter 3:18-20


…

Angels from that time are in prison too, awaiting judgment:

Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

People:

Isa 61:1 ¶ The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;

Psa 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, [for] the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell [among them].

 

[Dwylcs]

Angels from that time are in prison too, awaiting judgment:

Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

People:

Isa 61:1 ¶ The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;

Psa 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, [for] the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell [among them].

That's good! ……… just think, if those who had a greater start than we did are still mercifully preached to then it bodes a lot better for people than we think.

Let's be honest though, nobody knows what was preached by Jesus, nor for that matter the end of all things. We can't take the judgment out of God's hand.

What we can do though is look to the mercy of God's nature, and the wisdom of not revealing all - to prevent his mercy being trampled on. (We only see in part)

One other helpful matter is to notice scriptures which are often overlooked.

"…he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." Phil 3:21
"…he is not willing that any should perish…" 2 Peter 3:9



[Whole verses:
Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.]


…

 

[Bethwhite]

That's good! ……… just think, if those who had a greater start than we did are still mercifully preached to then it bodes a lot better for people than we think.

Let's be honest though, nobody knows what was preached by Jesus, nor for that matter the end of all things. We can't take the judgment out of God's hand.

What we can do though is look to the mercy of God's nature, and the wisdom of not revealing all - to prevent his mercy being trampled on. (We only see in part)

One other helpful matter is to notice scriptures which are often overlooked.

"…he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." Phil 3:21
"…he is not willing that any should perish…" 2 Peter 3:9



[Whole verses:
Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.]


…

Yes, we shall see!

 

[juvenissun]

God is the One who said there are only two options.

Please, Beth, quote me the Bible verses on that. Thank you very much.

 

[Carmella Prochaska]

Heaven & hell do not exist in "space". They are both spaceless, timeless & matterless realms. I'm not certain of the separation of these two. But according to the Scriptures, the New Jerusalem will be on Earth. A sort of new creation that is not subject to decay and death. Hell is a lake of fire, and a lake doesn't take up much space. The evil are burned here along with Satan.

 

[juvenissun]

I cannot believe this thread. LOL! It is the same old lie the serpent told Eve. Hath God said...?" You shall not surely die??? Think about who's spirit is prompting these questions.

Don't laugh so early. Open your mind and THINK!

Here is a question to help you: Is the New Jerusalem (Rev 21) the so-called Heaven? Yes, or No.

An option is: The New Jerusalem is only a part of the Heaven.

 

[juvenissun]

Heaven & hell do not exist in "space". They are both spaceless, timeless & matterless realms. I'm not certain of the separation of these two. But according to the Scriptures, the New Jerusalem will be on Earth. A sort of new creation that is not subject to decay and death. Hell is a lake of fire, and a lake doesn't take up much space. The evil are burned here along with Satan.

... on the NEW earth.

No no. Except God, nothing else is spaceless or timeless. Do not blindly use these two words. Remind you that the so-called "forever" shows a nature of TIME. If you have time, then you have space.

 

[Bethwhite]

Please, Beth, quote me the Bible verses on that. Thank you very much.

Heaven & hell do not exist in "space". They are both spaceless, timeless & matterless realms. I'm not certain of the separation of these two. But according to the Scriptures, the New Jerusalem will be on Earth. A sort of new creation that is not subject to decay and death. Hell is a lake of fire, and a lake doesn't take up much space. The evil are burned here along with Satan.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[juvenissun]

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Thank you and very good.


1. Does it mean that some people who's names ARE written on the Book of Life will still be judged according to their works.

2. Why bothered with "the books" which seem recorded everything a person has ever done in his life. Would just "the book of life" be enough for the judgement?

Hope you would explain more than just "God decides everything" to me.

 

[Bethwhite]

Thank you and very good.


1. Does it mean that some people who's names ARE written on the Book of Life will still be judged according to their works.

2. Why bothered with "the books" which seem recorded everything a person has ever done in his life. Would just "the book of life" be enough for the judgement?

Hope you would explain more than just "God decides everything" to me.

The only people that avoid this GWT judgment is the church. Everyone else who has ever lived (good or bad) faces this judgment.

Rev 20: Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Daniel 12:...But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.


Daniel 12:13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

 

[juvenissun]

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The way I read it is like this:

First, the person would be checked if his name is written on the Book of Life. If not, then he goes to the Lake of Fire. Clear and simple.

Second, if his name IS on the Book of Life, then he WILL NOT go to the Lake of Fire. However he would still be "judged" according to what he did in his life, which is all recorded in those "books". (how would this matter with his eternal life?)

Now, the problem is: For those whose names are found on the Book of Life, are they all going to the Heaven? Or, do they simply escape the Lake of Fire, but not necessary go to the Heaven? (depends on his deeds)

I would say that these verses still do not explain my question clearly. The judgment goes like: You go to the Lake of Fire, or you don't go to the Lake of Fire. It does not clearly say where would you go even you are not going to the Lake of Fire. The emphasis of these verses is on the second death, but not on the nature of eternal life.

 

[Bethwhite]

The way I read it is like this:

First, the person would be checked if his name is written on the Book of Life. If not, then he goes to the Lake of Fire. Clear and simple.

Second, if his name IS on the Book of Life, then he WILL NOT go to the Lake of Fire. However he would still be "judged" according to what he did in his life, which is all recorded in those "books". (how would this matter with his eternal life?)

Now, the problem is: For those whose names are found on the Book of Life, are they all going to the Heaven? Or, do they simply escape the Lake of Fire, but not necessary go to the Heaven? (depends on his deeds)

The deeds are recorded in books in heaven and your name is in the book of Life. These people are judged by their deeds. If a person's name is in the book of Life, they continue in God's Kingdom. If not, they are thrown into the lake of fire. God's Kingdom, after this judgment, is like Eden was - heaven on earth.

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[ViaCrucis]

This question enhanced in my mind recently. So, I am seeking your opinion on it.

In Christian doctrine, we have a space called Heaven, and another space called Hell (the Lake of Fire).
If we count the current space, the earth and our universe, as a temporary one,
do we have the third, or more space beyond the Heaven and the Hell.

The meaning of this question is: Whether people would have a third place to go except the Heaven and the Hell?

Calling "Heaven" and "Hell" space, I think, is a misconception. Likewise, the earth and the universe isn't temporary, it was created to last. And it will be renewed in the Age to Come, God created the heavens and the earth to be His temple, His dwelling place, and He will make that happen.

"Heaven" is, to put it simply, euphemistic for "God" as in the phrase "kingdom of Heaven" which is simply Matthew's way of saying "kingdom of God". When we look up into the heavens, we look to the farthest reaches of the human imagination, and we say, "God is far beyond even this, farther than what I can see or imagine", thus Heaven is used to speak of God's transcendent beyond-ness. To be "in Heaven" is simply to be "with God".

Hell, on the other hand, is a bit more complex.

The Scriptures speak of She'ol, the realm of the dead, the common grave; and it is translated as Hades in the Greek of the New Testament. Under the common Jewish conception of the time there were the two "destinations" of the dead in waiting for the resurrection of the dead: the first being Gan-Eden or Paradise, the realm of the righteous dead where the ancient Patriarchs, the Prophets, and the rest of the righteous dwelt; and the second Ge-Hinnom, Gehenna, the realm of the wicked dead.

Gan-Eden or Paradise appropriates the language of the Garden of Eden, to speak of the delights and comfort and joy for the righteous.

Ge-Hinnom or Gehenna appropriates the language of the Valley of Hinnom located on the outskirts of the Old City used as a burning refuse dump, to speak of the anguish and discomfort and sorrow for the wicked.

These were the two halves or sides of She'ol/Hades.

The English word "Hell" comes from the old Germanic Hel, which in Germanic/Norse mythology was the term for the underworld. In much the same way that Hades in Greek mythology was ruled by the god of the underworld (Hades), the Germanic Hel was ruled by the goddess of the underworld (Hel). Thus Hell, originally, was simply a way of translating She'ol and Hades, or the Latin Inferos (meaning "the nether regions" or "the underworld").

Hell later became attached not simply to She'ol/Hades, but more specifically to Gehenna and later the Lake of Fire.

The New Testament also borrows from Greek mythology in the writings of St. Peter, who speaks of Tartarus, which would roughly correspond to the Gehenna of Jewish thought. Its opposite in Greek mythology is Elysium or the Elysian Fields, which while never referenced in the New Testament, is found in extra-biblical Christian writing in much the same way that Tartarus is appropriated in the New Testament.

Which all means that we should probably be conscientious when we use the term "Hell", as there's a lot of baggage that comes with the word that can be somewhat confusing. Do we mean the realm of the dead broadly? Gehenna specifically? Do we mean the ultimate state of the wicked (symbolically described as a lake of fire and brimstone in the Apocalypse)?

We tend to use, in modern parlance, "Heaven" and "Hell" in some confusing ways, both to describe the intermediate state of the dead as well as the ultimate state of the righteous and the wicked following the resurrection. I think in doing so we convolute much of the subtlety, complexity, and diverse use of language which Scripture uses to try and communicate such concepts for us.

If by "Heaven" we simply mean that ultimately we are with God, dwelling us in Him and He in us in the new creation, in the Age to Come, then I'm fine with that notion.

And if by "Hell" we simply mean that state, that ultimate sort of existence of those whose lives of selfishness have wrought them ruin and self-destruction, then I'm fine with that as well.

Though in both cases I wouldn't speak of these as "spaces" distinct from the universe, as though these are separate microcosms or "dimensions" or pockets of space, or spacial coordinates in the universe either, as I think that is fundamentally faulty.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Calling "Heaven" and "Hell" space, I think, is a misconception. Likewise, the earth and the universe isn't temporary, it was created to last. And it will be renewed in the Age to Come, God created the heavens and the earth to be His temple, His dwelling place, and He will make that happen.

"Heaven" is, to put it simply, euphemistic for "God" as in the phrase "kingdom of Heaven" which is simply Matthew's way of saying "kingdom of God". When we look up into the heavens, we look to the farthest reaches of the human imagination, and we say, "God is far beyond even this, farther than what I can see or imagine", thus Heaven is used to speak of God's transcendent beyond-ness. To be "in Heaven" is simply to be "with God".

Hell, on the other hand, is a bit more complex.

The Scriptures speak of She'ol, the realm of the dead, the common grave; and it is translated as Hades in the Greek of the New Testament. Under the common Jewish conception of the time there were the two "destinations" of the dead in waiting for the resurrection of the dead: the first being Gan-Eden or Paradise, the realm of the righteous dead where the ancient Patriarchs, the Prophets, and the rest of the righteous dwelt; and the second Ge-Hinnom, Gehenna, the realm of the wicked dead.

Gan-Eden or Paradise appropriates the language of the Garden of Eden, to speak of the delights and comfort and joy for the righteous.

Ge-Hinnom or Gehenna appropriates the language of the Valley of Hinnom located on the outskirts of the Old City used as a burning refuse dump, to speak of the anguish and discomfort and sorrow for the wicked.

These were the two halves or sides of She'ol/Hades.

The English word "Hell" comes from the old Germanic Hel, which in Germanic/Norse mythology was the term for the underworld. In much the same way that Hades in Greek mythology was ruled by the god of the underworld (Hades), the Germanic Hel was ruled by the goddess of the underworld (Hel). Thus Hell, originally, was simply a way of translating She'ol and Hades, or the Latin Inferos (meaning "the nether regions" or "the underworld").

Hell later became attached not simply to She'ol/Hades, but more specifically to Gehenna and later the Lake of Fire.

The New Testament also borrows from Greek mythology in the writings of St. Peter, who speaks of Tartarus, which would roughly correspond to the Gehenna of Jewish thought. Its opposite in Greek mythology is Elysium or the Elysian Fields, which while never referenced in the New Testament, is found in extra-biblical Christian writing in much the same way that Tartarus is appropriated in the New Testament.

Which all means that we should probably be conscientious when we use the term "Hell", as there's a lot of baggage that comes with the word that can be somewhat confusing. Do we mean the realm of the dead broadly? Gehenna specifically? Do we mean the ultimate state of the wicked (symbolically described as a lake of fire and brimstone in the Apocalypse)?

We tend to use, in modern parlance, "Heaven" and "Hell" in some confusing ways, both to describe the intermediate state of the dead as well as the ultimate state of the righteous and the wicked following the resurrection. I think in doing so we convolute much of the subtlety, complexity, and diverse use of language which Scripture uses to try and communicate such concepts for us.

If by "Heaven" we simply mean that ultimately we are with God, dwelling us in Him and He in us in the new creation, in the Age to Come, then I'm fine with that notion.

And if by "Hell" we simply mean that state, that ultimate sort of existence of those whose lives of selfishness have wrought them ruin and self-destruction, then I'm fine with that as well.

Though in both cases I wouldn't speak of these as "spaces" distinct from the universe, as though these are separate microcosms or "dimensions" or pockets of space, or spacial coordinates in the universe either, as I think that is fundamentally faulty.

-CryptoLutheran

Well said.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

This question enhanced in my mind recently. So, I am seeking your opinion on it.

In Christian doctrine, we have a space called Heaven, and another space called Hell (the Lake of Fire).
If we count the current space, the earth and our universe, as a temporary one,
do we have the third, or more space beyond the Heaven and the Hell.

The meaning of this question is: Whether people would have a third place to go except the Heaven and the Hell?

Beth said it.

No, there is not an alternative and everyone has the Light light them from the time they come into the world, so as to seek, and find, or to deny, or ignore, or to blaspheme when they have sought and found -like Judas did.

But the doctrine of Sheol below earth and the Lake of Fire are first, totally recorded as foundational doctrines by Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam -which writing is "Canon" in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

In the Lake of Fire below, there are differing degrees of eternal punishment which are rewards for evil done in the body and which are based on the works of evil one did with full willful understanding against the Light that lights every man that comes into the world.

Christ is that Light, says John, and Christ is the Judge of all the secrets of every heart, and He will make them all manifest in the day of Judgment. No one will be cast into the Lake of Fire for our first father/Adam's sin, which is covered once, for all, but all will be judged for their own sins committed in their own bodies which they did against the Light/Christ -the Conscience given to every man that comes into the world and which they did not repent of, by conviction given to them by the Light that lights every man that comes into the world.

One does not need to know the Name of Jesus to sin against the Light, but when one seeks that Light, they find, and that Light leads them on. to know Christ.


No baby who died before coming to the age of understanding good and evil and doing either with will is accountable for any sins, but they did not get to live and earn eternal rewards for heaven, but indeed, they are saved by the Atonement -that includes, even, adults who are mental babies who are full grown and not accountable.

Just as there are differing degrees of rewards in the Lake of Fire, there are also differing degrees of rewards in eternal Life, and each man is judged for their own works of righteousness after they are saved, but no one can be acceptable for any righteous thing they have done if they are not saved, for God teaches us an unclean vessel, defiled and ruined, cannot bear the Glory, and must be remade to be able to bear the Glory.
No Adam person is clean and able to bear the Glory to present any acceptable offering to the Glory above, and will not even see His face forever -no matter how "earthly good" they may be in man's eyes.

All babies and mental babies will receive the regeneration of their body made in the image of Christ's New Man body, for the blood of the Atonement ransoms them back to God.


Also, heaven is not outside time and the creation. It is part of it, for in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and the heavens were powers that were stretched out between the divided waters of earth's creation, on day 2.
Above the heavens are half the waters of creation, and between the waters are three heavens.

Adam was placed in the Garden of Eden, which is in the third heaven, where the Tree of Life is, as the Scripture states.

The redemption of the Adam race by the Kinsman' Redeemer by the Atonement and adoption and regeneration makes us fit to be raised up again, to God's Garden, and earth below will be totally restored to that which it was made to be in the beginning.
God is not outside time, but the whole creation is separated form the Glory since the fall, when Adam was cast down to earth below fron Mount Eden, in heaven above.

Sheol below earth is only the temporary holding place for the dead who will be judged, but only the unrepentant go there since the Atonement.

The Lake of Fire, however, is outer darkness, and is the kingdom of darkness made for the Satans, where they will torment the fallen angels, the demons, and the unrepentant Adam souls, forever.


As to the word "Hell" it is from the Hebrew "Sheol", and is the hollow of earth.

As to the word "Hades", it is coined from the Hebrew word Qadesh [holy in an unclean way/temple prostitutes] at the time of the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah Genesis 14: In the Greek Septuagint it is already changed to Kades, and the H stuck. Q/H/K/hard C are all gutterals and since Bab-El, interchange language to language, and the "sh" is shortened to just "s".
Moses, writing of Abraham's pursuing the kings who raided Sodom and Gomorrah, gave the places Abraham chased them as the coined names they had come to have already -long before Greeks were anything but lowly shepherds [they invented nothing, and adopted all the cultures histories which they captured, later]

Gen 14:7 And they returned, and came to Enmishpat[well spring of judgment], which [is] Kadesh[קדש Qadesh ], and smote all the country of the Amalekites, and also the Amorites, that dwelt in Hazezontamar.


קדש Qadesh -coined to describe a sodomite, from "holy" in an unclean way.

The English version of the Septuagint text, Sir Lancelot C. L. Brenton
Gen 14:7 And having turned back they came to the well of judgment; this is Cades, and they cut in pieces all the princes of Amalec, and the Amorites dwelling in Asasonthamar.

Septuagint N.E.T translation:
Gen 14:7
And after they had turned back they came to the spring of judgment (this is Kades)...

So the coined word from Hebrew, coined at the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, is now written "Hades", but that is its history -as Jude also states:

Jude1:6,7
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

 

[Hockey_Fan]

why?

As I have lived more, witnessed more I see fewer things in black and white. Not all Christians or religious people are righteous and not all non-Christians are evil.

I suspect there are more than two destinies. I have often wondered about persons of other religions. Perhaps there are a parallel destinies, such as a Christian heaven and a Muslim heaven. I'm speculating here because, obviously, these are matters of faith that cannot be imperically proven.

God sees a person's heart and I do not. I am at peace leaving judgment to God, believing he will be completely just and fair and merciful.

 

[Bethwhite]

As I have lived more, witnessed more I see fewer things in black and white. Not all Christians or religious people are righteous and not all non-Christians are evil.

I suspect there are more than two destinies. I have often wondered about persons of other religions. Perhaps there are a parallel destinies, such as a Christian heaven and a Muslim heaven. I'm speculating here because, obviously, these are matters of faith that cannot be imperically proven.

God sees a person's heart and I do not. I am at peace leaving judgment to God, believing he will be completely just and fair and merciful.

Ask God for the Holy Spirit.

You haven't found/received the Kingdom yet.

Matt 13:44 “The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.
45 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. 46 When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it.

 

[Hockey_Fan]

Huh?