Health at Every Size

[Mling]

I discovered the concept of Health at Every Size a couple of months ago, and am so glad that I did. I had started thinking similarly, before that, but it really helped to have my vague intuitions put into words, with confirmation that yes, this is a thing, and many people live happily and healthily this way.

The basic ideas of HAES are

1. Weight and health are two completely different things, just like hair color and health. Neither of them have any bearing on the other. There are perfectly healthy fat people and very unhealthy thin people.

2. You have the right to prioritize your physical and mental health any way you like, set your own goals, and pursue those goals however you determine is best.

3. Any goals you have, anything you'd like to do, you can began working toward and (and possibly achieve) in the body you have now.

When I was younger, I would regularly think, "I'd like to do X, but I don't know if I can at my weight. I should lose some weight so I can." Then I'd lose 5-10 pounds, plateau, try harder, fail to break out of the plateau, think I couldn't make it and give up.

Now I can just...do what I want. I took up martial arts--weighing about 200 lbs, started lifting weights, just started plyometrics, eat a lot better than I used to (but still have treats when I want--it's just that I want them less now that I've given myself permission to have them) have lowered my fasting blood sugar (and resting heart rate and blood pressure), improved my strength and endurance.... and still weigh about 200 lbs.

But I'm healthier and happier with who I am, and that's awesome.

If you're interested in reading more, I really love this woman's blog

 

[lucasluis]

Fitness is very important for all. healthy body is looking fantastic. These are same tips for fitness. do yoga and morning walk. Do not eat oily Foods, Do Swimming daily, Drink lots of water, Do not eat oily Foods, Eat Frequently and Eat Slowly.

 

[DaisyDay]

Fitness is very important for all. healthy body is looking fantastic. These are same tips for fitness. do yoga and morning walk. Do not eat oily Foods, Do Swimming daily, Drink lots of water, Do not eat oily Foods, Eat Frequently and Eat Slowly.

Man, did you ever miss the point - you can look fantastic and be unhealthy and you can be overweight yet healthy.

 

[Lem29]

That is a pretty interesting, and inspirational site, thanks. And congrats on the 50 push ups that you mentioned in the other thread -- keep up the good work! Here is another Christian fitness site worth checking out. Best of luck to you!

Lem

 

[Verticordious]

Yes, is possible to be a healthy weight and still be unhealthy in other ways, but weight is probably the single most contributing factor to health there is. If not, it's close. The idea that the two are completely unrelated is absurd.

 

[Mling]

Yes, is possible to be a healthy weight and still be unhealthy in other ways, but weight is probably the single most contributing factor to health there is. If not, it's close. The idea that the two are completely unrelated is absurd.

The two are correlated, but there is no evidence that simply being large actually causes health problems.

At the same time, there is a lot of evidence that being active and eating decently will mitigate a lot of the problems that are usually correlated with weight, even if it doesn't make you lose weight.

The problem is that fat people are constantly given the message that their number one goal ought to be losing weight. The best response people often have to that is that they do healthy things (like move more and eat a good diet) for the goal of losing weight...but then when they don't, they think it isn't working and give up.

Less good scenario is that they do unhealthy things to lose weight, like restrict themselves from eating entire food groups, or develop eating disorders.

Meanwhile, being the target of stigma causes a lot of the same problems that are usually correlated with being fat (high blood pressure, heart problems, depression, etc), and fat people are often denied health care for two main reasons: one is that some insurance companies simply won't insure people above a certain weight, or charge higher premiums for people above certain weights. The other is that often, if a fat person walks into a doctor's office with a problem that affects people of all sizes, they'll often be diagnosed as "fat" and told to lose weight, when a thin person would have received tests and been treated for their actual ailment. That results in fat people having more medical problems going undiagnosed and untreated than thin people.

So, we end up with fat people who are constantly encouraged to do unhealthy things, discouraged from doing healthy things (it's harder to run if people are mooing at you from cars) and receiving worse health care than the general population.

It's completely true that, in America, being fat and having health problems are correlated, but there's no evidence that one causes the other.

Most likely, our culture makes fat people unhealthy, and the best way for fat people to become healthy is to stop buying in to our culture's lies that you must be thin, and to focus on developing healthy habits.

 

[Verticordious]

The two are correlated, but there is no evidence that simply being large actually causes health problems.

Umm... yes there is. Fat cells release hormones that, in sufficient amounts, cause insulin resistance which contributes to diabetes, cancer, heart disease, high blood pressure, and hunger. Obesity is not just an effect of poor health, but also a cause.

Fat Cell Hormone Promotes Type 2 Diabetes : NIDDK
New evidence that fat cells are not just dormant storage depots for calories

 

[Mling]

Umm... yes there is. Fat cells release hormones that, in sufficient amounts, cause insulin resistance which contributes to diabetes, cancer, heart disease, high blood pressure, and hunger. Obesity is not just an effect of poor health, but also a cause.

Fat Cell Hormone Promotes Type 2 Diabetes : NIDDK
New evidence that fat cells are not just dormant storage depots for calories

And there is evidence that increasing muscle mass counters that affect; and building muscle is actually possible for almost anybody, unlike long-term weight loss, which usually not only fails, but fails by leading to greater weight gain in the long term.

Which puts us back where we started: a strong, fat person is just as likely to be healthy as a thin person.

The number I've seen around is that 95% of people who lose significant weight have gained it back, and usually more, five years later. This is apparently based on a study performed in 1959, but has never been debunked, and later, similar studies have shown similar results. So, even if being fat does cause worse health, recommending long-term weight loss is only a margin of error more helpful than recommending that paraplegics grow wings.

So if, hypothetically, there were a definite causal relationship between increased fat and poor health, it would belong in the same category as age, birthplace and genetics: stuff you've got to work around, because there's nothing you can do about it.

I've never heard a doctor diagnose somebody as "old" and tell them that their osteoporosis would be a lot better if they'd just get themself 10 years younger, even though, technically, it is true.

Disclaimer: Everything said above about the possibility of increased weight leading to poorer health is meant to be a hypothetical discussion. I have not backpedaled from my original assertion that there is no evidence of such a relationship.

 

[Verticordious]

Yes, increasing your muscle mass will decrease your bodyfat percentage, but there's no way anyone can put on enough muscle to bring down their percentage into acceptable levels if they are currently obese.

According to the last Bodpod test I had I am ~140lbs lean at 5' 9", I weigh 165, and I can bench press 300 lbs and deadlift 450 lbs. The lady in the blog is 5'4", and at that height a woman is probably not even 100 lbs lean unless she has been weightlifting. 184/284 = 64.8% bodyfat.

Even at that high of a body fat percentage she would need to gain 4.45 lbs of muscle to get to 63.8% bodyfat, which if she never weightlifted before might come in a couple months, but after that it would take many months, perhaps an entire year, to put on another ~4.45 lbs of muscle. Alternately, she could fast and lose the 2.84 lbs in a week or so, and repeat numerous times. If she were 30% body fat, she could gain 4.92 lbs of muscle or lose 1.43 lbs of fat to lower her bodyfat percent by 1 point.

Also, that study you linked regarding people who lose weight putting it back on does not address causation, it is only an observation. Losing weight is difficult, but the laws of thermodynamics prove it is possible for everyone. Fast for several days and you will lose fat quickly. You simply need to enough to muster up enough self control to not return to your old habits of overeating.

 

[Mling]

Yes, increasing your muscle mass will decrease your bodyfat percentage, but there's no way anyone can put on enough muscle to bring down their percentage into acceptable levels if they are currently obese.

According to the last Bodpod test I had I am ~140lbs lean at 5' 9", I weigh 165, and I can bench press 300 lbs and deadlift 450 lbs. The lady in the blog is 5'4", and at that height a woman is probably not even 100 lbs lean unless she has been weightlifting. 184/284 = 64.8% bodyfat.

Even at that high of a body fat percentage she would need to gain 4.45 lbs of muscle to get to 63.8% bodyfat, which if she never weightlifted before might come in a couple months, but after that it would take many months, perhaps an entire year, to put on another ~4.45 lbs of muscle. Alternately, she could fast and lose the 2.84 lbs in a week or so, and repeat numerous times. If she were 30% body fat, she could gain 4.92 lbs of muscle or lose 1.43 lbs of fat to lower her bodyfat percent by 1 point.

She can leg press 1100 lbs, and has perfect blood sugar/heart rate/blood pressure readings, for what that's worth.

Also, that study you linked regarding people who lose weight putting it back on does not address causation, it is only an observation. Losing weight is difficult, but the laws of thermodynamics prove it is possible for everyone. Fast for several days and you will lose fat quickly. You simply need to enough to muster up enough self control to not return to your old habits of overeating.

Sure, for a week. Then it will come back and bring all its friends. Our bodies evolved in an environment where survival meant making the most of every calorie. If you fast for a few days, you'll lose weight quickly, and your body will adapt to this phase where, clearly, there isn't enough food and it's starving. To avoid starving, your metabolism will slow, and as soon as you start eating again, your body won't burn the calories you ingest--you'll likely gain more weight than you lost.

As an example, I know somebody who went through an anorexic period for a couple of months. She's been eating normally for about 6 months now, but her metabolism is still so slow that, no matter what she eats, she only has bowel movements once every three or four days (a new development since the anorexic period).

So, you can starve yourself for a few days, and then devour everything because your cells desperately need nutrition, but now all you've accomplished is creating a body that will store more calories as fat than before.

It's possible I'm wrong, though. If you have evidence of anything healthy that leads to long-term weight-loss, I'd love to see it.

 

[Verticordious]

She can leg press 1100 lbs, and has perfect blood sugar/heart rate/blood pressure readings, for what that's worth.

Most leg press machines are at an angle, on a track, and have no standard range of motion, so there's no way to know how much force she is actual lifting with. Deadlifts, on the other hand, are comparable as long as you are using Olympic standard plates and lifting on level ground, which is pretty much always the case. Then, if you're able to stand fully erect you've completed the lift, otherwise you failed.

Sure, for a week. Then it will come back and bring all its friends. Our bodies evolved in an environment where survival meant making the most of every calorie. If you fast for a few days, you'll lose weight quickly, and your body will adapt to this phase where, clearly, there isn't enough food and it's starving. To avoid starving, your metabolism will slow, and as soon as you start eating again, your body won't burn the calories you ingest--you'll likely gain more weight than you lost.

Starvation mode is a myth. Your metabolism is a result of the operation of your internal organs, which does not change in any significant amount, and whatever physical activity you engage in. If you fasted for a long time you may gain as much as 10 lbs your first week eating again, but this is due to the fact that you now have food making its way through your digestive track and any carbs you eat will go toward refilling muscle and liver glycogen. It's not fat and it has nothing to do with a slow metabolism.

As an example, I know somebody who went through an anorexic period for a couple of months. She's been eating normally for about 6 months now, but her metabolism is still so slow that, no matter what she eats, she only has bowel movements once every three or four days (a new development since the anorexic period).

So, you can starve yourself for a few days, and then devour everything because your cells desperately need nutrition, but now all you've accomplished is creating a body that will store more calories as fat than before.

It's possible I'm wrong, though. If you have evidence of anything healthy that leads to long-term weight-loss, I'd love to see it.

I don't know what happened to your friend, but I lost ~75 lbs in 5 months, October '11 - Feb '12, by only eating 3-4 meals a week, mostly steak and potatoes. I also gained strength on all my lifts 365 -> 390 deadlift and 275 -> 285. Granted, that's not very much progress for 5 months, but considering I was in "starvation mode" and lost 75 lbs that's pretty impressive.

A recent military study proves my experience to be the rule, not the exception. Starvation Mode – Why You Probably Never Need to Worry About It | Fitness Black Book. There is also an audio commentary by Brad Pilon, who spends a lot of time studying fasting and weight loss.

 

[Mling]

Most leg press machines are at an angle, on a track, and have no standard range of motion, so there's no way to know how much force she is actual lifting with. Deadlifts, on the other hand, are comparable as long as you are using Olympic standard plates and lifting on level ground, which is pretty much always the case. Then, if you're able to stand fully erect you've completed the lift, otherwise you failed.

Starvation mode is a myth. Your metabolism is a result of the operation of your internal organs, which does not change in any significant amount, and whatever physical activity you engage in. If you fasted for a long time you may gain as much as 10 lbs your first week eating again, but this is due to the fact that you now have food making its way through your digestive track and any carbs you eat will go toward refilling muscle and liver glycogen. It's not fat and it has nothing to do with a slow metabolism.

I don't know what happened to your friend, but I lost ~75 lbs in 5 months, October '11 - Feb '12, by only eating 3-4 meals a week, mostly steak and potatoes. I also gained strength on all my lifts 365 -> 390 deadlift and 275 -> 285. Granted, that's not very much progress for 5 months, but considering I was in "starvation mode" and lost 75 lbs that's pretty impressive.

A recent military study proves my experience to be the rule, not the exception. Starvation Mode – Why You Probably Never Need to Worry About It | Fitness Black Book. There is also an audio commentary by Brad Pilon, who spends a lot of time studying fasting and weight loss.

There are no links to the actual study on that, and it's talking about something completely different than I was, anyway, with the except that "metabolism slows" might not be the perfect language to use.

Based only on that commentary, seeing nothing of the actual study, it sounds like they took people who had very little body fat and good muscle tone, and put them through the wringer to see when they started losing muscle and developing hormonal problems.

That's a completely different situation than what happens in the 5+ years after a fat person has lost a significant percentage of their body weight.

The research I was talking about suggests that when that happens, the person nearly always ends up gaining back more weight than they lost.

Unless you want to argue that, throughout the last half century, 90-95% of people who've tried to lose weight just didn't want it enough, it's likely that whatever caused them to lose weight in the first place wasn't sustained because it was unsustainable.

 

[Verticordious]

There are no links to the actual study on that, and it's talking about something completely different than I was, anyway, with the except that "metabolism slows" might not be the perfect language to use.

Based only on that commentary, seeing nothing of the actual study, it sounds like they took people who had very little body fat and good muscle tone, and put them through the wringer to see when they started losing muscle and developing hormonal problems.

That's a completely different situation than what happens in the 5+ years after a fat person has lost a significant percentage of their body weight.

The research I was talking about suggests that when that happens, the person nearly always ends up gaining back more weight than they lost.

Unless you want to argue that, throughout the last half century, 90-95% of people who've tried to lose weight just didn't want it enough, it's likely that whatever caused them to lose weight in the first place wasn't sustained because it was unsustainable.

Yes, the study I referenced was addressing catabolism/"starvation mode". As far as weight gain does, I've never seen any evidence that would contradict the idea that a person can reach and maintain a low bodyfat percentage if they eat the proper amount of calories. Unless you can demonstrate that the body is damaged in some way so that internal organs use less calories, then the issue is simply willpower.Dieting and your Metabolism - YouTubePeople who lose large amounts of weight, 100 lbs, 200 lbs, or more, are obviously going to burn few calories in a day due to expending less energy when moving. Someone may have to eat maybe 200-400 less calories a day to maintain their weight after losing several hundred pound. If you don't adjust your eating happens to compensate, then yes you will regain weight. If you then get depressed about it and seek comfort from food, then yes, you'll gain even more. However, the evidence suggest that energy expenditure from internal organs does not change in any significant amount. Sorry I don't have any links for the studies Brad references. In the past I've tried to find them, but I've already lost the weight and have been keeping it off, so I haven't been motivated to find them.

In my personal experience, avoiding sugars, especially bread and other grains, is very helpful. They are very addictive and make me more likely to overeat. I get almost all of my carbs from potatoes. My favorite thing to do is just put ~7 lbs of ground beef, some onions, peppers, and Frank's Red Hot Extra Hot in a crock pot and let it cook for several hours. It's delicious, yet when I'm full I don't need much will power to stop. Not sure how much evidence to support the idea that sugar is actually more addicting than other foods, but avoiding it certainly works for me.

 

[Mling]

Yes, the study I referenced was addressing catabolism/"starvation mode". As far as weight gain does, I've never seen any evidence that would contradict the idea that a person can reach and maintain a low bodyfat percentage if they eat the proper amount of calories.

Unless you can demonstrate that the body is damaged in some way so that internal organs use less calories, then the issue is simply willpower.

Dieting works by creating a calorie deficit, yes? Or, put more bluntly, it works by giving your body less fuel than it needs to run properly.

If you did this with oxygen--told people to run up and down the stairs without breathing-- then nobody would be surprised when they fail. Eventually you will fail in doing that, because your body needs oxygen and will overpower your willpower.

So why is it just a matter of will power when we're talking about calories? The response is delayed, but it is' the same response--your body creating physical and emotional sensations that create a desperate need to give it what it needs.

In my personal experience, avoiding sugars, especially bread and other grains, is very helpful. They are very addictive and make me more likely to overeat. I get almost all of my carbs from potatoes. My favorite thing to do is just put ~7 lbs of ground beef, some onions, peppers, and Frank's Red Hot Extra Hot in a crock pot and let it cook for several hours. It's delicious, yet when I'm full I don't need much will power to stop. Not sure how much evidence to support the idea that sugar is actually more addicting than other foods, but avoiding it certainly works for me.[/quote]

I'm glad you found something that works for you.

Developing healthy habits and thinking of your body as something worth taking care of would work for a lot more people than dieting does.

Really, dieting barely works for anybody, and the sort of shame that our culture flings at fat people works for nobody. Nobody takes good care of something they hate, and that includes their own body. A person who hates their own body is not going to treat it well.

HAES offers a way to break out of the cycle of "I hate myself! I have to be thinner-->developing unhealthy eating and exercising habits-->giving up because you're miserable-->I hate myself!"

It offers the mindset of "I am worth loving as I am-->I would like to take care of myself better-->How can I be healthier?-->Developing lifelong healthy habits."

And ya know...it might not result in weight loss at all. But it will lead to people being healthier if they so choose, and--at least as importantly-- people respecting the bodies and choices of others.

 

[Nienna_Lady_of_Tears]

And it is also possible for both men AND WOMEN to be large without being overweight.

I am 5'4", almost 200 pounds, and have 19% body fat according to hydrostatic weighing. How is this possible? I have a very large bone structure, particularly in my ribs (40 inches and that's seeing my bones!) This means my lean body mass is 157 pounds, which is a whopping 30-50 or so pounds more than the average woman of my height. But at 19% body fat, the doctors agree I shouldn't really try to lose any.

And no, starvation mode is NOT a myth. My family refused to see that I was large, and just went by the numbers, eventually cutting me down to around 700-800 calories a day in order to see me lose weight. I actually GAINED weight, up to about 220.