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Healing-To all WOFers

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gailmac

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Lottedah said:
then how come the bible mention sickness as the following.. oppression, curse, captivity, and bondage?
God is none of those things!
Well, God's word says our ways are not His ways, so I don't think we'll ever be able to understand why He creates Good and Evil, Rich and Poor, all at the same time...and can still be considered Holy.

If you start to think about the why this and why thats, it can drive you nuts.

For example, why did God create Satan if he knew that he would fall and try to destroy His creation?

Why do people die without even hearing the gospel?


And, this is the one that I don't understand the most... but my pea brain doesn't think like God....People in hell burning forever and ever, never quenching their thirst....they cry out " GOD, YOU WERE RIGHT, PLEASE SAVE ME GOD" but it is too late....and I hear Christians say "Well, it's because they had a chance" but still, to think of anyone punished forever and then realize they were wrong and begging to get out of hell, doesn't comfort my fleshly mind at all. The only thing that gives me comfort is to trust God that everything is in His hands... He is a Holy God who deserves all praise no matter what!
 
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whitestar

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2 Corinthians 12:7 To keep me from becoming conceited because of
these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn
in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weakness, so Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 This is why,
for Christ’s sake, I delight in weakness, in insults, in
hardships, in presecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.


http://www.studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?book=2co&chapter=012
David Guzik's Commentaries
on the Bible

2. (7) The presence of Paul's thorn in the flesh.

And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.
a. And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations: Paul's vision was so impressive that it would have been easy for him to be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations. He could have gloried in himself, or caused others to glory in him because of this experience.

i. Paul was not immune to the danger of pride. No one is. "The best of God's people have in them a root of pride, or a disposition to be exalted above measure, upon their receipt of favours from God not common to others." (Poole)

b. To prevent being exalted above measure, Paul was given something: a thorn in the flesh was given to me. In this, Paul reveals the real reason for telling of his heavenly vision: not to glorify himself, but to explain his thorn in the flesh.

i. It seems that everyone could see the thorn in the flesh Paul suffered from. It was no secret. His heavenly vision was a secret until now, but everyone saw the thorn. Some among the Corinthian Christians probably thought less of Paul because of his thorn in the flesh, but they knew nothing of the amazing spiritual experience that lay behind it!

ii. "He says, 'There was given to me.' He reckoned his great trial to be a gift. It is well put. He does not say, 'There was inflicted upon me a thorn in the flesh,' but 'There was given to me.'" (Spurgeon)

c. What is a thorn in the flesh? When we think of a thorn, we think of a somewhat minor irritation. But the root word Paul uses for thorn here describes a tent stake, not a thumbtack!

i. In the ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament known as the Septuagint, the word skolops (thorn) shows "something which frustrates and causes trouble in the lives of those afflicted." (Kruse)

d. A thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me: In a strange way, the thorn was both given (ultimately given by God), but it was also a messenger of Satan.

i. Satan probably jumped at God's permission to afflict Paul, and did so with malice towards the apostle. But God had a purpose in it all, and allowed Satan's messenger to successfully keep Paul from being exalted above measure.

ii. To buffet me means that this thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan, "punched" Paul. He felt that he was beaten black and blue by this messenger of Satan.


iii. Paul, punched about by the devil? Who would have thought it? "Perhaps you have looked into the face of a Christian who is always smiling, who never seems to have any worry, is always happy and radiant and, as you have thought about your own circumstances, you have said in your heart, 'I wish I were he! He seems to have no problems. He doesn't have to take what I do.' But perhaps you have lived long enough, as I have, not know that sometimes the most radiant face hides great pressures, and often the man who is being most blessed of God is being most buffeted by the devil." (Redpath)

e. It is interesting to consider what a counselor without a Biblical perspective would have said to Paul. Imagine that Paul tells the counselor about his great infirmity, his troublesome "thorn in the flesh," and how Paul feels weak and powerless to continue on against it. We might imagine that the counselor would say, "Well Paul, what you need a positive mental outlook to meet this problem." Or, he might say "Paul, the power is within you to conquer over this infirmity; you should look deep within the inner man to find the resources for success." Perhaps the counselor would then tell Paul "What you really need a support group of caring individuals." Or he might even seek to challenge Paul by saying "Paul, if you really had faith, you would be delivered from this thorn in the flesh." Some of this advice might be good in different circumstances. But Paul will take his problem to the Wonderful Counselor, and He will have something different to say.

3. (8) Paul's prayer regarding the thorn in the flesh.

Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.
a. Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord: Paul did exactly what he told others to do in a time of trouble. Paul believed for himself what he wrote in Philippians 4:6: Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God.

b. I pleaded with the Lord three times: In fact, Paul repeatedly prayed about this thorn in the flesh. We might imagine that when the thorn in the flesh first appeared, Paul thought, "This is no problem. I'll just give it to the Lord in prayer." But nothing happened when he prayed. So he thought, "This is a tough one," and prayed again. When nothing happened after praying the third time, he knew God was trying to tell him something.

i. Some think that Paul is using a Hebrew figure of speech that really means much more than three times. "That does not mean three times. It is the Hebrew figure for ceaselessly, continuously, over and over again." (Morgan)

ii. Some say it is unspiritual and evidence of little faith to pray for something more than once. That would be surprising to Paul, who pleaded with the Lord three times, and to Jesus, who prayed with the same words three times in His agony in the Garden of Gethsemane (Mark 14:39-41).

iii. But there was nothing wrong with Paul's prayer. "God respecteth not the arithmetic of our prayers, how many they are; not the rhetoric of our prayers, how neat they are; nor the geometry of our prayers, how long they are; nor the music of our prayers, how melodious they are; nor the logic of our prayers, how methodical they are; but the divinity of our prayers, how heart-sprung they are. Not gifts, but graces prevail in prayer." (Trapp)

c. Paul's prayer was passionate. He pleaded with the Lord about this matter. We might even wonder if he wasn't surprised when the prayer was not answered the first or second time.

d. That it might depart from me: Paul's initial prayer was to escape the suffering this thorn in the flesh brought him. Paul was no [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. When he suffered, his first instinct was to ask God to take it away.

i. But when his passionate, repeated plea for deliverance was not answered, it must have concerned Paul. It added another dimension to this trial. The trial had a physical dimension, in that it was a thorn in the flesh. It had a mental dimension, in that it was a messenger of Satan. And it had a spiritual dimension, in that it was an unanswered prayer.

e. What exactly was Paul's problem? We simply don't have enough information to say precisely, but that hasn't prevented many commentators and teachers from giving their opinion.

i. Some have seen it mainly as spiritual harassment. Others have thought it was persecution. Many have suggested it was a physical or mental ailment. Some have said this was Paul's struggle with lustful and sinful thoughts.

ii. Among Christians, Tertullian gives the earliest recorded guess at the exact nature of Paul's problem. He thought the thorn in the flesh was an earache or a headache.

iv. Each of these suggestions is possible, but God had a definite purpose in not revealing the exact nature of Paul's thorn. If we knew exactly what Paul's thorn was, then everybody who was afflicted, but not in exactly the same way, might doubt that Paul's experience was relevant for them. God wanted everyone with any kind of thorn in the flesh to be able to put themselves in Paul's shoes. "I generally find that each expositor has selected that particular thorn which had pierced his own bosom." (Spurgeon)

4. (9-10) God's provision to Paul through his thorn in the flesh.

And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
a. And He said to me: God had a response for Paul. The answer was not what Paul was initially hoping for, or expecting. But God still had a response for Paul. We often close our ears to God if He responds in a way we were not hoping for, or expecting.


b. My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness: Instead of removing the thorn from Paul's life, God had given, and would give, His grace to Paul. The grace God gave Paul was sufficient to meet his every need.

i. Paul was desperate in his desire to be relieved of this burden. But there are two ways of taking away a burden. It can be done by removing the load, or it can be done by strengthening the shoulder bearing the load. Instead of taking away the thorn, God would strengthen Paul under it, and God would show His strength through Paul's apparent weakness.

ii. To do this, Paul had to believe that God's grace is sufficient. We really don't believe God's grace is sufficient until we believe we ourselves are insufficient. For many of us, especially in American culture, this is a huge obstacle. We are the people who idolize the "self-made man" and want to rely on ourselves. But we can't receive God's strength until we know our weakness. We can't receive the sufficiency of God's grace until we know our own insufficiency.


iii. "Great tribulation brings out the great strength of God. If you never feel inward conflicts and sinking of soul, you do not know much of the upholding power of God; but if you go down, down, into the depths of soul-anguish till the deep threatens to shut her mouth upon you, and then the Lord rides upon a cherub and does fly, yea, rides upon the wings of the wind and delivers your soul, and catches you away to the third heaven of delight, then you perceive the majesty of divine grace. Oh, there must be the weakness of man, felt, recognised, and mourned over, or else the strength of the Son of God will never be perfected in us." (Spurgeon)

c. How did God's grace make the difference? How did it meet Paul's need at this point?

i. Grace could meet Paul's need because it expresses God's acceptance and pleasure in us. When we receive His grace, we enjoy our status of favor and approval in God's eyes. Grace means that God likes us, that He is favorably disposed towards us; we have His approval and promise of care.


ii. Grace could meet Paul's need because it was available all the time. When we sin or fail, it does not put us outside of the reach of God's grace. Since grace is given freely to us in Jesus, it can't be taken at later because we stumble or fall. When we come to God by faith, through the blood of Jesus, His grace is ever ready to meet and minister to our insufficiencies.

iii. Grace could meet Paul's need because it was the very strength of God. So much of the power of this world is expressed in things that can only bring harm and destruction. But God loves to show His power through His goodness and grace. Sometimes we associate goodness with cowardice or timidity. But when we do, we take a worldly perspective about power and strength, and we deny God's truth about the strength of grace and love. Grace is not weak or wimpy. Instead, it is the power of God to fulfill what we lack.

God bless
whitestar
 
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gailmac

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Lottedah said:
How come jesus said if you can believe all things are possible?
I take it to mean if you believe long enough you will be fixed somewhere. It says in Isiah sicknesses not sin.
psalms -he sent his word and healed them.. I am the Lord who healeth thee.
deu 28-sickness a curse and oppression
job 42 and the lord turned the captivity of job
luke 13&16 jesus calls sickness bondage and says satan is behind it.
WOFs teach that Gods word is his will.
I believe in miracles. Why God heals some and not others I am not sure.
My pastor said they teach in 50% of seminaries when John died they stopped doing miracles.
I think if you believe long enough and are steadfast miracles happen. As for denying their boy insulin that sounds like a cult most WOF have common sense.
I would be interested in studying these verses you gave in detail. Could you please give the bible verse along with what it says?

Again, are they miracles, like moving a mountain miracle, or miracles that any other religion claims also. To me, as I've said many times, an amputated leg would be a huge miracle, moving a mountain would be huge, seeing my paralyzed patient walk again would be a huge miracle...and I have never met someone who can tell me this has happend with proof...so Maybe God has miracles for us to come. The biggest miracle is our salvation and Satan destroyed right? Doesn't anyone agree with me on that?
 
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whitestar

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David Guzik's Commentaries
on the Bible

James 5:14-16

(13-14) How to meet needs arising among Christians.

Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms. Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
a. The suffering need to pray, the cheerful should sing psalms of praise to God, and the sick should call for the elders of the church, asking them to pray for their need.

i. James has the same advice for both the suffering one and the cheerful one: take it all to the Lord. In fact, the two commands could be reversed: sufferers should sing also, and the cheerful should also pray.

ii. James clearly puts the initiative on the person in need: let him call. The hesitancy of people to ask for or to seek prayer from the leadership of the church in such circumstances is a true mystery.

b. Let them pray over him: James also says that the elders of the church, as they pray, should anoint the sick person with oil in the name of the Lord. This anointing with oil has been interpreted as either seeking the best medical attention possible for the afflicted (oil massages were considered medicinal), or as an emblem of the Holy Spirit's presence and power.

i. Anointing the sick with oil is also mentioned in Mark 6:13. Luke 10:24 mentions the application of oil in a medicinal sense.

ii. The Roman Catholic Church mutated this command to anoint the sick into the "sacrament" of Extreme Unction, administered to someone to prepare them for death. Something James intended to heal was made into a preparation for death!

2. (15-16) God's answer to the prayers of His people.

And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

a. And the prayer of faith with save the sick: Many have wondered if James "guarantees" healing here for the sick who are prayed for in faith. Some have interpreted the idea behind save the sick as not specifically being healing, and raise him up as being a reference to ultimate resurrection. The reference to sins being forgiven adding to the idea that James is considering a spiritual work and healing, not necessarily a physical healing.

b. Yet, the context of the statement demands that James does not exclude physical healing as an answer to prayer, though he does seem to mean something broader than only a physical healing. We should pray for others in faith, expecting that God will heal them, then leave the matter in God's hands.

i. Clearly, God does not grant immediate healing for every prayer of faith, and the reasons are hidden in the heart and mind of God. Still, many are not healed simply because there is no prayer of faith offered. The best approach in praying for the sick is to pray with humble confidence that they will be healed, unless God clearly and powerfully makes it clear that this is not His will. Having prayed, we simply leave the matter to God.

ii. Often we do not pray the prayer of faith out of concern for God's reputation if there should be no healing. We should remember that God is big enough to handle His own reputation

I kind of thought this same thing myself...the healing of the sick...the word sick can mean many many things. My son was 'sick', but not physically. There are 'sick' people spiritually. Their are those who are 'sick at heart' over worry or heartache for so many reasons. Since physically sickness was not said, I take it to mean any kind of sickness, but I also don't see this as a 'guarantee' that everyone will be healed from whatever kind of sickenss they have.

The passage is vague, I think, because James means this in a board sense. Anyway I totally agree with this commentry. I realize not everyone will agree with this, and that's fine..that is between you and God, I just hope that someday when your will isn't the same as God's and someone you love is not healed, your faith won't be destroyed by it. That is my biggest concern.

God bless
whitestar
 
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whitestar

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I just read something about Jesus' follower asking about a disabled person (can't remember the details right at the moment) if had sinned to cause this inflicition on this person and Jesus said, no one had sinner. Oh I am racking my brain on where I saw that at...can't even think of the book right now. But yes I agree, not all illnesses are caused by any sins at all.

Maybe tomorrow after I get some sleep I can remember where I read it at.

God bless
whitestar
 
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whitestar

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Ok it looks like I was wrong about Moses having a strutter...I wonder why they said that on the Christain radio show anyway? :( I still don't think he was a coward though, just lacking in confidents in himself and struggling with his faith.

http://www.studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?book=ex&chapter=004

Moses

David Guzik's Commentaries
on the Bible

Exodus 4 - Moses' Commission from God

4. (10) Moses makes an excuse: "I can't speak well."

a. After these remarkably persuasive signs, Moses persists with objections to God's call - he reveals that he is not confident with his ability to speak. Slow of speech is literally "heavy of mouth."

b. It seems that Moses' excuse was not justified; clearly, forty years before this, Moses was not slow of speech and slow of tongue; Acts 7:22 says Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and deeds.

i. In those years of silence - preaching only to the sheep - Moses no doubt had to deal with much discouragement and a sense of failure and condemnation; accumulated over forty years, it isn't hard to see why he now believes he cannot do what he clearly could do before.

ii. Instead of Moses "regressing" in speaking ability during those years in the desert, it is far more reasonable to believe that he has simply lost confidence in himself - something that can be good, but not if it makes him lose confidence in what God can do in him.

5. (11-12) God's response to Moses' excuse.

a. The fact that Moses believed himself to be not eloquent is completely beside the point; Moses had the God who created the most eloquent mouths on his side.

b. In verse 11, God makes a dramatic statement regarding His sovereignty, and He does it in the context of an invitation to trust God and to work with Him.

i. There is not the slightest sense of fatalism in this declaration of God's sovereignty; it is never "God is so mighty we can't do anything," but it is always "God is so mighty, He can work through us if we make ourselves available."

c. Some have thought it cruel that God would say He makes the mute, the deaf, . . . the blind. B`ut the point here is not to analyze the origins of evil, but to show that God is so mighty, that He can even call the mute, the deaf, and the blind to do His work - Moses' perceived inadequacies don't matter at all.

i. If Moses was a poor speaker, was this news to God? Does God have trouble keeping track of who is deaf, who is blind, and who is mute? Does Moses really think God has made a mistake here?

ii. If Moses was a poor speaker, it didn't matter - the mighty God said I will be with your mouth and teach you what you shall say. By extension, God can be the sufficiency for a person, no matter what real or imagined inadequacies they have.

6. (13-17) Moses' unwillingness, and God's reply.

a. Finally, Moses is done with excuses and declares the fact of his heart: he would much rather that God send someone else. His problem isn't really a lack of ability, it is a lack of willingness.

b. God was not angry when Moses asked Who am I (Exodus 3:11). He was not angry when Moses asked "Who should I say sent me?" (Exodus 3:13). He was not angry when Moses disbelieved God's Word and said suppose they will not believe me or listen to my voice (Exodus 4:1). He was not even angry when Moses falsely claimed that he was not and had never been eloquent (Exodus 4:10). But God was angry when Moses was just plain unwilling.

i. There may be a hundred understandable reasons why Moses was unwilling, some of them making a lot of sense (perhaps he wanted to serve, but was unwilling because of past rejection). But the bottom line is that Moses was unwilling, not unable.

c. We should see the addition of Aaron to the leadership team as God's discipline towards Moses, not His approval or "giving in" to Moses. Aaron was more of a problem to Moses than a help!

i. Aaron did turn out to be a source of problems for Moses; Aaron instigated the worship of the golden calf, fashioning the calf himself and building the altar himself (Exodus 32:1-6), his sons blasphemed God with impure offerings (Leviticus 10:1-7), and he openly led a mutiny against Moses (Numbers 12:1-8).

(moral of this story...DO what God tells you to do without any excuses! lol)

God bless
whitestar
 
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whitestar

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You read FAST gailmac!!! lol. I am still looking stuff up...more tomorrow! (well maybe, hopefully...) my 'thorn in the flesh' is a bad back and neck and I am in alot of pain right now. When my neck goes out I really hate that because besides headaches I get dizzy too. So I guess a visit to the chiroprator in the morning will be in order.

My son may have been healed...but not me...not yet anyway...;) I still will praise God always though for blessing my little child in this way...:D

I can rebuke evil spirts bothering him ONLY through Jesus' powerful Name, but cannot heal my bird's broken leg..even when calling on Jesus' Name...(but I am not complaining) I was told why I wasn't given the gift of healing (physically anyway)...at least for not now.

God bless
 
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gailmac

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whitestar said:
You read FAST gailmac!!! lol. I am still looking stuff up...more tomorrow! (well maybe, hopefully...) my 'thorn in the flesh' is a bad back and neck and I am in alot of pain right now. When my neck goes out I really hate that because besides headaches I get dizzy too. So I guess a visit to the chiroprator in the morning will be in order.

My son may have been healed...but not me...not yet anyway...;) I still will praise God always though for blessing my little child in this way...:D

I can rebuke evil spirts bothering him ONLY through Jesus' powerful Name, but cannot heal my bird's broken leg..even when calling on Jesus' Name...(but I am not complaining) I was told why I wasn't given the gift of healing (physically anyway)...at least for not now.

God bless
Headaches with dizziness and back pain?- Have you ever been checked for Anemia? I just saw my Chiropractor today....awwh tonight I need the ice, but tomorrow should be feeling great! ;)

LOL about reading your posts so fast. I had read that one long (will read again and again to study it more) but I learned a lot....:wave: going to bed now:wave:
 
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chris320

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gailmac said:
Headaches with dizziness and back pain?- Have you ever been checked for Anemia? I just saw my Chiropractor today
After I found out that divine healing was available, I applied that to my back pain, headaches, and dizziness and have not been back to the chiropractor in 8 years.
Prior to hearing the WOF, I went to a chiropractor for 6 years.Most all of the questions you and whitestar have would be answered if you would read "Christ the Healer" by FF Bosworth. I simply do not have the time to sit down and type out a response to every question posed with this forum.

-Chris320
 
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chris320

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whitestar said:
e. What exactly was Paul's problem? We simply don't have enough information to say precisely, but that hasn't prevented many commentators and teachers from giving their opinion.

i. Some have seen it mainly as spiritual harassment. Others have thought it was persecution. Many have suggested it was a physical or mental ailment. Some have said this was Paul's struggle with lustful and sinful thoughts.
It is by this comment alone that you cannot prove that Paul's thorn was sickness. The Bible tells us exactly what it was-"a messenger of Satan to buffett". Therefore, it was not sickness. Note the following quotes, which support the idea of physical and spiritual harrassment:

Numbers 33:55 "But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell."

Judges 2:3 "Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you. "


-Chris320
 
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Lottedah

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I had a miracle happen tongiht. I was researching warfare on Jezebel and found this site.

http://www.etpv.org/2002/python.html

I rebuked the spirits listed of python, divination, jezebel and I cant remember them all and I got the healing of my back I wanted. For the last three yrs I have had major back pain I couldnt even sit slouching it would kill. I couldnt breathe deeply from my diaphragm or the constriction would hurt so badly I thought I had broken ribs. My doctor saw none, well after I rebuked those spirits both are normal and I am slouching for the first time in three yrs and I am breathing deeply and practicing breath support for my vocal exercises. I have been unable to sing long for three yrs due to the pain. praise GOD
:bow: :bow: :clap: :prayer:
 
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ABDIarise

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whitestar said:
I truly think not everone is meant to be healed. If that was they way it should be the drs would be out of business by now...lol. I don't think a person should ever ever be told they didn't have enough faith either. :( All that doesn't is undetermine their faith anyway.

I think sometimes we are not healed because God uses the illness or whatever it is as a teaching lesson for that person or the people around them.

For instance many severely handicapped babies live now that used to die at birth because our medical tech has increased so much. While some may think these children would have been better off dying at birth, they actually have great lessons to teach those who care for them.

I have worked with severely physically disabled adults and they all have gifts to give this world, even if they don't realize it. :D

So I think if someone is not healed, they then need to look to God to lead them in how they can use their illness or disablity to teach others something that could not teach them if they were well.

God bless
whitestar

You know, I wonder about this, too. Why did Jesus tell those that weren't healed it was because they did not have enough faith? So many things hard to understand, aren't they?
 
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Andrew

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I am still looking stuff up...more tomorrow! (well maybe, hopefully...) my 'thorn in the flesh' is a bad back and neck and I am in alot of pain right now. When my neck goes out I really hate that because besides headaches I get dizzy too.

And as long as you believe that trash -- that Paul's thorn is some sickness God gave and refused to remove -- it would be very hard for God to heal you, as much as he wants to.

Why wont you just let the Bible interpret the Bible -- ie let the Holy Spirit define for you what He Himself meant when he wrote "thorn".
 
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