Healing-To all WOFers

[whitestar]

Something esle just occured to me...many of the people in the bible suffered from some type of afflication...Moses had a speech problem (not sure if he struttered or what) but this is why Aron spoke for him much of the time. David and many others suffered through terrible times of depression and even anxiety. Oh I wish I could remember more, but I have heard on my Christian radio show about so many of them had either physical or emotional problems.

Even Jesus' disciples were not perfect and had their own problems...whether physical, emotional or sins they could not totally shake.

With Paul the reason I said it did not matter if it was a physical problem was not to discount it but to not get hung up on this one passage when the whole bible shows us alot of people with alot of problems~! I didn't want to get stuck on just that passage.

Paul may have been afflicted by something from satan but the Lord still told him, He would not heal him. I believe healing should not be limited to just physical problems...my son for instance was very very ill supposely from emotional problems...after the Lord helping me find someone who taught me about rebuking evil spirits and alot of prayer on this and study of the scriptures, I started doing this and through Jesus' very powerful name, my son HAS been healed from this.

So yes I do believe in healing...but I also know my son, like I, will someday die a physical death too.

I don't think any of us can be 'totally healed' meaning in everyway so that yes, we do not die...the healings of whatever sort are temporary...the complete healings come after our bodies have died and we go to be with the Lord.

I believe we cannot be totally healed because we are all sinner, have that sin nature in us, unlike Jesus, who was perfect in everyway and through and through.

So regardless of what 'type' of thorn in his side that Paul had, the Lord still denied his healing. And the most important passage there I think is where Paul says, when I am weak He is strong.

I still feel some people are not healed for a very good reason. If we all walked around here in perfect health, what would we learn from that? We find God in our sufferings.

I heard this saying once:

I walked a mile with happiness who chatted all the way, and the end of the road I had learned nothing.

Then I walked a mile with sorrow who said nothing, and at the end of the road I had learned much.

God uses the suffering that comes to us to learn to trust in Him.

"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up;"

I just realized this doesn't say the person will be healed...it only says they will be saved...saved as saved as we are in Jesus? Their soul saved? And the part also about the Lord shall raise him up...the Holy Spirit lifts us up in many ways actually. He lifts us up when we are down or in sorrow, He lifts us up in times of trial. He lifts our spirits up to Him. I don't actually see this as saying anyone is healed. I guess I need to go check this passage out more carefully.

God bless
whitestar

 

[victoryword]

Something esle just occured to me...many of the people in the bible suffered from some type of afflication...Moses had a speech problem (not sure if he struttered or what) but this is why Aron spoke for him much of the time.

Moses did not have a speech problem. Moses suffered from cowardice and unbelief. He was suing excuses not to fulfill the calling on his life. I believe you are reading more into the situation with MOses than Scripture warrants.

David and many others suffered through terrible times of depression and even anxiety. Oh I wish I could remember more, but I have heard on my Christian radio show about so many of them had either physical or emotional problems.

David also knew how to pray and overcome his moments of depression. Scripture also records how he often encouraged himself (see 1 Sam. 30). Again, one can so easily read their theology into the text of any Scripture. Unfortunately such comes at the cost of neglecting other passages that repudiates these claims.

Even Jesus' disciples were not perfect and had their own problems...whether physical, emotional or sins they could not totally shake.

We are not talking about people having problems. All of us do. What we need is for people to prove from Scripture that God fails to answer prayer for physical healing. This has not yet been done and every attempt to do so has been met and refuted.

With Paul the reason I said it did not matter if it was a physical problem was not to discount it but to not get hung up on this one passage when the whole bible shows us alot of people with alot of problems~! I didn't want to get stuck on just that passage.

The Bible is full of people with problems. We do not dispute this. No one is advocating that faith in God leads to living a UTOPIA on earth. We believe that life is full of challenges and faith in God's Word enables us to overcome every one of them (1 John 5:4-5). Nevertheless, the fact that people have problems and the Bible discusses this is by no means a good refutation of the Bible's teaching that one can receive healing through faith and prayer.

Paul may have been afflicted by something from satan but the Lord still told him, He would not heal him. I believe healing should not be limited to just physical problems...my son for instance was very very ill supposely from emotional problems...after the Lord helping me find someone who taught me about rebuking evil spirits and alot of prayer on this and study of the scriptures, I started doing this and through Jesus' very powerful name, my son HAS been healed from this.

Praise God. Always overjoyed to hear of a report of God's love and mercy in the demonstration of His divine power to heal.

So yes I do believe in healing...but I also know my son, like I, will someday die a physical death too.

As stated in my earlier posts, none of us teach that we will live in this body forever. The doctrine of divine healing by faith teaches that we receive healing in our bodies until our work on earth is done. When we have finished then we go home - unless Jesus comes back before then.

I don't think any of us can be 'totally healed' meaning in everyway so that yes, we do not die...the healings of whatever sort are temporary...the complete healings come after our bodies have died and we go to be with the Lord.

New bodies and healings are not the same. A new body needs no healing because it is new. Healing is needed now while we are here on earth.

I believe we cannot be totally healed because we are all sinner, have that sin nature in us, unlike Jesus, who was perfect in everyway and through and through.

The Bible does not call the born again Christian a "sinner." We are called saints" and "the righteousness of God" (2 Cor. 5:21). We cannot be both. Furthermore, the question Jesus asked on some occasions is, "wilt thou be mad WHOLE?" Being "whole" implies complete healing. The Bible teaches this possibility.

So regardless of what 'type' of thorn in his side that Paul had, the Lord still denied his healing. And the most important passage there I think is where Paul says, when I am weak He is strong.

If the thorn was not sickness then there was no need for "healing." Besides, I do not read where God denied Paul anything. God told Paul that His grace was sufficient for Paul. It does not sound to me like a denial but a reminder and an impartation of grace.

I still feel some people are not healed for a very good reason. If we all walked around here in perfect health, what would we learn from that? We find God in our sufferings.

I heard this saying once:

I walked a mile with happiness who chatted all the way, and the end of the road I had learned nothing.

Then I walked a mile with sorrow who said nothing, and at the end of the road I had learned much.

God uses the suffering that comes to us to learn to trust in Him.

Your theology of sickness cannot be backed by Scripture. Yes indeed God can teach us things through suffering. If my son burn his hand on a stove then here is an opportunity to teach him about the danger of carelessness (also I can throw in a little instruction about the horrors of going to hell). Yet, this does not mean I wanted my son to burn his hand nor does it not mean that I will not do all that I can to bring healing to his hand and eliminate the pain.

The Bible teaches us that we Christians will suffer persection and trials. These we must endure as good soldiers (though we can pray for deliverenace even in these). However, the Bible never teaches that we are to accept sickness and disease. These we are to fervently pray against and we are to claim God's promises for healing.

"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up;"

I just realized this doesn't say the person will be healed...it only says they will be saved...saved as saved as we are in Jesus? Their soul saved? And the part also about the Lord shall raise him up...the Holy Spirit lifts us up in many ways actually. He lifts us up when we are down or in sorrow, He lifts us up in times of trial. He lifts our spirits up to Him. I don't actually see this as saying anyone is healed. I guess I need to go check this passage out more carefully.

God bless
whitestar

Too bad you don't see it for what it definitely says. I did notice how you conveniently left out verse 16 which specifically states that after the sick confess their faults to one another they can expect healing. The word translated "saved" in the KJV is the same word used in relation to healing in other places:

And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee. (Luke 18:42)

The same word is translated as "healed" in other parts of the KJV. But in case that is not convincing enough, here are some alternate translations of James 5:15:

and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. (NASB)

and the prayer of faith shall heal the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he be one who has committed sins, it shall be forgiven him. (Darby)

and the prayer of faith will heal him who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. (HNV)

This prayer made in faith will heal the sick; the Lord will restore them to health, and the sins they have committed will be forgiven. (Good News) And the prayer that is said with faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will heal that person. And if the person has sinned, the sins will be forgiven. (New Century Version)There are quite a number of other Bible translations that could prove my point but I believe that this will suffice.

 

[whitestar]

victoryword, I have to ask why in the world are you being so rude to me and acussing me of things that are simply not true...all I am doing is trying to understand what you are saying and have a nice discussion...trying to understand your viewpoints yet this last post of your was very attacking...


victoryword, "Your theology of sickness cannot be backed by Scripture."

me>I have no idea what this word, "theology" means that you keep using...I AM going by what the bible says...and I will be more then happy to find plenty of scriptures to back up what I am saying. I am not 'making up things' if that is what 'theology means. I only go by what the bible says as a whole, not by only one or two verses if possible.

I never heard of Moses being a coward...he was one of the braveist men I have read about in the bible. He turned down being a pharo, a king and went into slaverly for trying to find the truth. I don't know of many cowards that would do that. Then he survived the desert and after finding contentment there with a wife and family...ended up going back and facing the very people who had abandoned him and turned their backs on him...I don't see how he can be called a coward by anyone..in fact you are the first person I ever heard call him a coward. (just too mention a few of the things he did)


victoryword, "If the thorn was not sickness then there was no need for "healing." Besides, I do not read where God denied Paul anything. God told Paul that His grace was sufficient for Paul. It does not sound to me like a denial but a reminder and an impartation of grace."

My son was not physically ill, yet he was healed too.
So you are saying we cannot be healed if we have emotional, mental or spiritual problems? I thought healing came in any of these fourms? So it seems to me whatever was causing 'pain' for Paul...this infliction, needed to be healed...he ASKED for a healing...and yes God showed His grace but NOT by choosing to heal him. I think you are trying to avoid seeing this.

"David also knew how to pray and overcome his moments of depression. Scripture also records how he often encouraged himself (see 1 Sam. 30). Again, one can so easily read their theology into the text of any Scripture. Unfortunately such comes at the cost of neglecting other passages that repudiates these claims."

Yes David did to this but he also went into a serious depression for 16 months...not for any few days.
David went into the enemies camp and refused to turn to God for 16 months! He was in a very deep depression during this time...he was tired of being chased by the then king and gave up believing God would protect him and yes I will get scriptures to back this up. Sorry but I see you side stepping what I am saying here.

When I said many of the people in the bible had problems I had listed some already, I didn't mean life problems...I meant physical problems, spiritual, emotional and so on and the Lord USED these imperfection to His own advanage.

If I left out scriptures on that one passage about going to the church elders if you are sick it was not on purpose...and I don't appeicate being acussed that I did it on purpose. I won't side step any issue but gladly research it and figure it out...that is why I come here to learn...not to try to be right.

I am sorry you are feeling so defensive on this subject, I am seriously really trying to not attack in anyway, as I said, I am trying to understand your thinking and many of the words you use in your post I have no clue what they mean.

As far as what I said about Moses having a speech problem I did not make this up...I said clearly I heard this on my Christian radio station I listen to ...and I have read it before too. I said quiet a few people in the bible had problems (meaning physical, emotionally, or even mental problems) but I could not remember anything esle other them Moses.

I will see if I can find that information though. I think its great myself that the Lord will even use someone disablity for His purpose.

If you want to discontinue this discussion that is fine. I find it rather odd you have to use a whole bunch of different translations of the bible to find the verses stated the way you want. I use one translation though sometimes check it against the NKJV. If I REALLY want to break a verse down and find its true meaning I go back to the orginally lanague it was written in and see what that word means....which I will probably do with the verses on going to the elders if someone is sick.

I plan on posting my finding of everything I have stated on here whether anyone continues this discussion or not, so people can see for themselves that I am not making anything up. If I am wrong about something I will be the first to admit it...(and I am usually wrong about 50% of the time too! lol) It may take me a few days...hopefully not too long though to find everything I need.

I don't like being told I am making things up...I dont. I am not a liar. Sometimes I DO misunderstand things for sure, and sometimes I am flat wrong, but I don't just make up things. I CAN back up everything I said and I will...including a complete study on the verses you posted. If I find myself wrong about something I will post that and show the evidence too of why I was wrong about whatever statement I said.

God bless
whitestar

 

[Lottedah]

God allows us to be afflicted sometimes to teach, show his glory or save us from our selves. Also in times it can be generational curses and other times it really can be just plain old sickness that can be rebuked but isnt a demon. You dont have to go to elders you can pray and anoint one another.

Yes I believe healing is for earth but there are people who are told its only their faith problem keeping them from healing. Well its not true. Sometimes its a lack of faith for the person praying for the person, sometimes its nots Gods season for it, sometimes the person has unforgiveness, sometimes its a generational curse or an unbroken curse that came on in a moment of sin for the person. It can be a number of things curtailing the healing. Also sometimes God might be allowing it to teach or having someone go through it so they have a testimony.
Think about that ok?
For all you know she could be a brand new believer and you could have just casued her to fall. I wouldnt want to be in that position millstones hurt!

 

[gailmac]

I truly think not everone is meant to be healed. If that was they way it should be the drs would be out of business by now...lol. I don't think a person should ever ever be told they didn't have enough faith either. All that doesn't is undetermine their faith anyway.

I think sometimes we are not healed because God uses the illness or whatever it is as a teaching lesson for that person or the people around them.

For instance many severely handicapped babies live now that used to die at birth because our medical tech has increased so much. While some may think these children would have been better off dying at birth, they actually have great lessons to teach those who care for them.

I have worked with severely physically disabled adults and they all have gifts to give this world, even if they don't realize it.

So I think if someone is not healed, they then need to look to God to lead them in how they can use their illness or disablity to teach others something that could not teach them if they were well.

God bless
whitestar

Wow, great point about the handicapped babies now living that used to die Amen....look to God!! You can never go wrong by letting God be in control and asking Him for wisdom and guidance!!

 

[gailmac]

The situation you describe could not happen any more than someone could call upon the name of the Lord and not be saved. Jesus did not lie. If you have faith, you will always be healed. No exceptions. No special cases.
If a person does not receive healing, it is always because (for whatever reason) they are not/cannot believe. The real question therefore is this: what is hindering their faith?

Hmmm always is a strong word that I don't think is backed up using the sum of God's word and taking the chapters/versus into context. The bible also says you can move a mountain always...so when was the last time you moved one??

And, many of you complicate the matter..ie, "well, if they don't take care of themselves they won't get healed"....or....."well, someone else can pray for them so they can get healed"....or....."well, maybe it's a curse in the family". This is beginning to be so confusing. on what you all believe. Now, I see you say they will always be healed.

If this is the case, why does cardiac disease develop over the years...so that eventually people die from it.

If you wipe out every disease always, we'd never have any deaths. What are your WoF teachers dying of? Hagin had cardiovascular disease. And was hit with full blown on heart blockage. Where is the ALWAYS in this case???

Paul Crouch also has many cardiac problems....Where is his ALWAYS???

Why did Paul of the Bible have an eye ailment and couldn't cure himself ALWAYS...was it a lack of faith?? A curse from the family??

Fred Price was struck with Cancer and then began Chemo..where is the ALWAYS there???


Larry and Lucky Parker paid a high price for their dedication to the Faith teachers. In their book We Let Our Son Die, they tell how, in accordance with the teachings of the Word of Faith Movement, they withheld insulin from their diabetic son. He lapsed into a coma and died.
A recent news report revealed the following: "A Benny Hinn crusade … became a tragedy for four people -- including a baby and a young child -- who died while awaiting a miracle healing from Hinn. All had been hospitalized but had left the hospital to attend the crusade" (Religious News Service, May 8, 2000). Unfortunately these are not the only examples.

So, since ALWAYS, doesn't mean ALWAYS, please re-examine what you are teaching and believing.

 

[gailmac]

I totally agree with WhiteStar.
I do not agree with didaskalos in this... I do belive all believers will be healed.... but, I believe you are saying that if we have fiath we will be healed here on Earth... this I don't agree with... some will be healed of things on this earth, but some won't be healed until they go to heaven. Also... healing is not always physical... healing can be for emotinal things or spiritual things as well.... how much greater is spiritual healing.

Well said. We are promised sufferings and we are promised healings...but since they don't always happen here....Praise be to Jesus, we won't be cryin' or in pain in Heaven

 

[gailmac]

My answer is simply:

Ro 3:4 let God be true, but every man a liar.

The problem never lies with God but with man. We don't know why some are healed and some aren't.

If you don't know why some are healed and some aren't...God tells us Why...

1. Exodus 4:11, "And the Lord said to him, "Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?
2. Deut. 32:39, "See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded, and it is I who heal; And there is no one who can deliver from My hand."
3. Sam. 2:6-7, “The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up. 7The Lord makes poor and rich; He brings low, He also exalts.
4. Ecc. 7:13-17, "Consider the work of God, For who is able to straighten what He has bent? 14In the day of prosperity be happy, But in the day of adversity consider— God has made the one as well as the other So that man may not discover anything that will be after him."
5. Isaiah 45:5-7, “I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; 6That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, 7The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these."
6. Lam. 3:37-38, "Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? 38Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and ill go forth?"
7. Amos 3:6-7, "If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?"

How much clearer can this be??? The other versus about we are healed by His stripes doesn't mean physically healed, rather spiritually...otherwise we'd all be moving mountains and the only way this all makes true sense and is right all the time, is to let God be God and relax in His guidance for your life. And, if He so chooses to heal you...Praise him. If not, you won't be concerned about it in Heaven. Be thankful for your salvation...that should be good enough that you are saved from the pit of hell don't you think

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Mod hat on*
It needs to settle down in here.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

If you don't know why some are healed and some aren't...God tells us Why...

1. Exodus 4:11, "And the Lord said to him, "Who has made man&#8217;s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?" <LI style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Deut. 32:39, "See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded, and it is I who heal; And there is no one who can deliver from My hand." <LI style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">1 Sam. 2:6-7, &#8220;The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up. 7The Lord makes poor and rich; He brings low, He also exalts." <LI style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Ecc. 7:13-17, "Consider the work of God, For who is able to straighten what He has bent? 14In the day of prosperity be happy, But in the day of adversity consider&#8212; God has made the one as well as the other So that man may not discover anything that will be after him." <LI style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Isaiah 45:5-7, &#8220;I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; 6That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, 7The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these." <LI style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Lam. 3:37-38, "Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? 38Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and ill go forth?"
2. Amos 3:6-7, "If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?"

How much clearer can this be??? The other versus about we are healed by His stripes doesn't mean physically healed, rather spiritually...otherwise we'd all be moving mountains and the only way this all makes true sense and is right all the time, is to let God be God and relax in His guidance for your life. And, if He so chooses to heal you...Praise him. If not, you won't be concerned about it in Heaven. Be thankful for your salvation...that should be good enough that you are saved from the pit of hell don't you think

Good enough. You mean if God offers more say "no thanks, I've got enough?"

 

[gailmac]

When are people going to stop attempting to make Paul's thorn in the flesh a sickness? Even some Calvinists and cessationists dispute this erroneous belief. Tony Warren, who is both, has written an excellent article refuting the belief that Paul's thorn was a sickness. I do not agree with Warren's conclusions (because I am neither a Calvinist nor a cessationist) but I certainly agree with his premise. Read his essay:

http://members.aol.com/twarren20/thorn.html

I reference Warren's essay rather than, say, F. F. Bosworth (who also did an excellent job repudiating the "thorn in the flesh as sickness" theory) because no one can accuse Warren of interpreting Scripture from a bias perspective.

However, Warren is not the only one. Martin Luther, the great reformer of some centuries past, also disputed the belief that Paul walked around with some "eye disease" as some try to promote. Luther taught that these should be seen as the trials Paul endured (see Luther's commentary on Galatians).

Without Warren, Luther or anyone else, the context of 2 Corinthians chapters 11 and 12 tells you exactly what Paul's thorn was. It was a messenger from Satan sent to buffet him. This did not say anything here about sickness. People who do not believe that God consistently answers the prayer of faith to heal the sick (which He unequivocally promised to do in James 5:14-16) want so bad for that thorn to be a sickness but they have no real Scriptural basis. This is simply another case of theology by prooftext.

Furthermore, receiving new bodies is NOT divine healing. New bodies will not need healing. Healing is necessary for these old bodies that are still in a world full of sickness and disease. I know that Ken Blue (Authority to Heal) and other Vineyarders promote this view. Some of what they have to teach on healing is insightful and should be received by those of us in the WoF. However, this teaching that the receiving of our new body is the ultimate healing cannot be defended in light of James 5:14-16 which specifically deals with healing in the here and now.

And his chapter on "faith formula" stunk big time.

Okay, forget about Paul, what about Job and your well known faith healers, Hagin, Crouch and Price who are considered WoF?

 

[gailmac]

We could never know why every person who has trusted God for healing has not received.

Here is an answer..once again. God made it so clear..it is all about Him.

1. Exodus 4:11, "And the Lord said to him, "Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?"
2. 
   Deut. 32:39, "See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded, and it is I who heal; And there is no one who can deliver from My hand."

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

They are only human too gailmac. . . .they are working through these same issues.

Nowhere is it being said that one will never die a physical death. Nowhere. It is only being said that according to scripture that sickness and disease can be overcome the same as sin. Are you disagreeing that sin can be overcome?

 

[Follower of Christ too]

I would like to ask you exactly where in that passage do we find that it was not God's will to heal Trophimus? Does it even teach that Trophimus sought God for healing? Does it say that Trophimus remained sick throughout the rest of his life? Does it say that Trophimus died with this sickness?

Sickness can come upon any believer. While I believe that one can walk in divine health, the issue we are primarily discussing here is "healing by faith and prayer." The need for "healing" assumes that there is a sickness to be healed. Therefore, it does NOT assume that a person will never be sick. That is why we need healing.

Does the Bible contradict itself? If 2nd Timothy 4:20 is the proof that God does not heal in answer to prayer then it is certainly a contradiction of James 5:14-16. Since I do not believe that one passage of Scripture contradicts another, and that James 5:14-16 cannot be reinterpretted without someone taking literary liscense with the Bible, I have to be silent where the BIble is silent.

Since the Bible gives no explanation for Trophimus remaining sick in Miletus, neither should we attempt to use it to make it fit into a theology of sickness and healing, whether this theology is opposed to healing by faith or is sympathetic towards it.

Paul was present as well as Luke. So, I am saying when they left Trophimus he was still sick. All I am saying is, the man was sick. IMO this does not contradict James 5:14-16. IMO, Pauls vision was somewhat impaired.This would explain why he said he wrote in large letters...The Bible wasn't quiet where Trophimus was concerned. It said Paul left him sick. Luke was a doctor.

 

[Godisincontrol]

Victoryword "We are not talking about people having problems. All of us do. What we need is for people to prove from Scripture that God fails to answer prayer for physical healing. This has not yet been done and every attempt to do so has been met and refuted."


Godincontrol- It would be much easier to hear from those who believe in this to say God doesn't heal everytime for His own reasons. As, the Bible does tell us to go in faith and let our requests be known, but the same bible tells us that God is in control of our health, wealth, life and death.

Gailmac has asked for some proof of moving mountains and there aren't any who have, so it does make me think God's word might not mean what many think.

We can all twist scripture to back up what we want to believe. But, it boils down to this IMO- Who has more control God or Satan, or your will. If you were to drive down the street and ready to get hit because "satan" wanted you to, could God cause your car to be saved from being hit even though you forgot to pray? I believe so. God can and will intervene when He wants.

 

[Godisincontrol]

They are only human too gailmac. . . .they are working through these same issues.

Nowhere is it being said that one will never die a physical death. Nowhere. It is only being said that according to scripture that sickness and disease can be overcome the same as sin. Are you disagreeing that sin can be overcome?

When some people on here say that We should "Always" be healed, that bothers me IMO. People may go their whole life without one healing. Does that mean they are anyless of a Christian? I would hope not. What about the person born paralyzed. what if they heard these teachings and kept doubting God, so they go find some other religion. So, why can't word of faith people just try to use scriptures that back up God wanting to heal, but on His terms...what could be the harm?

 

[Lottedah]

then how come the bible mention sickness as the following.. oppression, curse, captivity, and bondage?
God is none of those things!

 

[Godisincontrol]

Good enough. You mean if God offers more say "no thanks, I've got enough?"

If God offers more, He will allow your heart to be opened up to it so you say "Thank you Lord"!

 

[Lottedah]

How come jesus said if you can believe all things are possible?
I take it to mean if you believe long enough you will be fixed somewhere. It says in Isiah sicknesses not sin.
psalms -he sent his word and healed them.. I am the Lord who healeth thee.
deu 28-sickness a curse and oppression
job 42 and the lord turned the captivity of job
luke 13&16 jesus calls sickness bondage and says satan is behind it.
WOFs teach that Gods word is his will.
I believe in miracles. Why God heals some and not others I am not sure.
My pastor said they teach in 50% of seminaries when John died they stopped doing miracles.
I think if you believe long enough and are steadfast miracles happen. As for denying their boy insulin that sounds like a cult most WOF have common sense.

 

[whitestar]

then how come the bible mention sickness as the following.. oppression, curse, captivity, and bondage?
God is none of those things!

This may be true but since God is in total control, this means He does allow these things to happen to us. He allowed satan to mess with Job...very very badly I might say. Job suffered in every way a man could suffer, including physical illness, emotional upset and grief in losing all his children...he lost everything. Yes, in the end it was restored because he did not curse God and die like even his wife suggested, but he still suffered.

Just in reading the bible we see God fearing people suffer through all kinds of things, starvation, illness, heartbreak, loss of homes and families, being put into slavery, being beaten, put in prison, killed and so on. Samson was blinded and not healed from that. David went through terrible torment with the king trying to constantly kill him, Josphet was beaten by his own brothers and sold as a slave, so many many things happened to them....just like to US! Yes there were healings and families and homes restored and lives saved even but not in every case.

Even in 2 Tim when Paul says he left Trophimus sick it shows he could not always heal, if it was not God's will. Paul mentions his own infirmaties also...beside the verses about his thorn in the flesh too. None of the people in the bible were superhumans....they all suffered through something and not always healed. It isn't up to people to decide if someone should be healed...we have NO power! IF we have any gifts from the Holy Spirit...it is still up TO God whether those gifts are going to work...not up to us.

I found some very interesting reading on what is being talked about on this thread...

http://www.studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?book=2ti&chapter=004

David Guzik's Commentaries
on the Bible

A. The final testimony: The truth matters.

5. (19-21) Paul's closing greetings to his friends in contact with Timothy, and from Roman Christians.

Greet Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus. Erastus stayed in Corinth, but Trophimus I have left in Miletus sick. Do your utmost to come before winter. Eubulus greets you, as well as Pudens, Linus, Claudia, and all the brethren.
a. In his parting words, Paul's heart is for the people he knows - he is thinking about others, not himself. Paul knew the nature of Jesus, and was an other-centered person, just like Jesus.

b. Trophimus I have left in Miletus sick: Paul was a man used by God to perform remarkable miracles of healing (such as in Acts 14:8-10 and 19:11-20), yet he left Trophimus sick. This shows that even the apostle Paul did not have some kind of "miracle anointing" at his own disposal. He could only give a gift of healing if God it was God's will and timing.

2. Good men may be laid aside when they seem to be most needed. 3. Good men would have the Lord's work go on whatever becomes of them.

God bless
whitestar