Healing methods?

[RaymondG]

It's a good question, because receiving from God is limited by our ability to properly handle his gifts more than whether he wants to grant us our desires or not. Even in response to just tithing, it is the Lord's nature to pour out so much blessing we won't be able to handle it (Malachai 3:10). But in the end, if we ask for something that would be bad for us, the answer (hopefully) will be no.

“Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? (Luke 11:11-12, 1984 NIV)

Some passages have already been posted in this thread, but here's some more.

Sometimes the Lord's answer is "yes," but we won't receive what we asked for (per Ephesians 6:10-18).

When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them ?” But Jesus turned and rebuked them, (Luke 9:54-55, 1984 NIV)

Note the word "if" in the following passages. It is not within our power to grant ourselves faith just because we want it. God grants faith according to his will.

This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him. (1 John 5:14-15, 1984 NIV)

Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. (Matthew 21:21, 1984 NIV)

Regarding asking God for wisdom:
But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does. (James 1:6-8, 1984 NIV)

However, if you do not obey the LORD your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you: (Deuteronomy 28:15, 1984 NIV)

I can understand how you feel these verses mean you will sometimes get no's and waits when you pray. Does this mean, that because I get everything I ask for, and sometimes the things arent good for me, let teaches me what not to ask for.....it is the devil answering my prayers?

What would you say to the people who entered the Log challenge with Elijah? Nothing happened when they made the request to their god....but the God of Hezekiah, answered and sent the fire. Would it be possible to say that their god just said no...or their request wasnt in their will? What if God didnt answer Hezekiah? Would we say that it was ok....the answer was just no?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I can understand how you feel these verses mean you will sometimes get no's and waits when you pray. Does this mean, that because I get everything I ask for, and sometimes the things arent good for me, let teaches me what not to ask for.....it is the devil answering my prayers?

What would you say to the people who entered the Log challenge with Hezekiah? Nothing happened when they made the request to their god....but the God of Hezekiah, answered and sent the fire. Would it be possible to say that their god just said no...or their request wasnt in their will? What if God didnt answer Hezekiah? Would we say that it was ok....the answer was just no?

Are you sure it was Hezekiah? Or was it Elijah on Mt Carmel?

 

[Greg J.]

I can understand how you feel these verses mean you will sometimes get no's and waits when you pray. Does this mean, that because I get everything I ask for, and sometimes the things arent good for me, let teaches me what not to ask for.....it is the devil answering my prayers?

What would you say to the people who entered the Log challenge with Hezekiah? Nothing happened when they made the request to their god....but the God of Hezekiah, answered and sent the fire. Would it be possible to say that their god just said no...or their request wasnt in their will? What if God didnt answer Hezekiah? Would we say that it was ok....the answer was just no?

It sounds like you are referring to Elijah (1 Kings 18:19-39) rather than Hezekiah. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make or what you are trying to understand. We are God's little children; he is not our servant. The disposition of followers of Christ is that God's will be done in everything. Therefore we seek to understand his will so we can pray his will (which can be a part of his will being done on earth) or so we can carry out his will ourselves if he desires. We do not frivolously ask for things for ourselves, but we ask for things that we seriously need or want, the kinds of things that are longstanding deep desires and have possibly been put into us by God in the first place, which he would therefore, of course, answer at some point.

The way to understand many interactions with the Lord is that (1) he decides to do something, (2) he gives the desire to someone for it [or creates them with it], (3) the person prays for it [and/or other deeds are completed], then (4) the person receives what he asked for. God answers those prayers all the time, but the desire for it and the faith to believe he will answer originates with God.

 

[Strong in Him]

Ok, So I go to a church last night that a friend is ministering, the message and following conversation were on healing.

I probably shouldn't throw this out and I don't want to cause a debate here, But this is important and if I am misunderstanding scripture then I certainly want to be set straight. but here is their perspective Vs mine. They are a Charismatic group I now know.

Theirs
God has already given us everything we need for healing, We pray for people and if they are not healed, Then someone is lacking faith. God heals every time and we should never ask for God's will, Because He has already answered, and His will is always yes.

I certainly don't agree with this view.
1) Jesus taught us to pray "thy will be done"
2) James criticised those who said "we will ......" he said, "you should say, 'if it is the Lord's will'." James 4:15
3) Jesus asked God to take the cup of suffering away from him. God did not do so; it was his will that Jesus should suffer.
4) Paul was not healed from his thorn in the flesh
5) Hebrews 11 gives many examples of people who received promises from God, yet did not live to see those promises fulfilled.

If it was God's will that sick Christians should always be healed and in full health, then no Christian would be ill/disabled. If a sick Christian longs to be healed, says they want to be healed and it is always God's will to heal; they will be. If we want God's will, and he wants his will; it happens, and there would be no problem.

A girl from this congregation is even quitting her job because of this view, She works in a juvenile, Youth "help type facility" She is quitting because she disagrees with them giving the kids medicine, when they "just need to be healed" and everyone at church agreed with her.
They believe in taking no medicine and that we as priest and kings of God are representative of God and have authority over every situation by speaking it what we want.

Yes, I'm sure they do. And if that was how it was meant to happen then it would ALWAYS happen.

I used to have debates/arguments on these forums with those who held this view - Word of Faith.
I had M.E for 18 years. I said that I had prayed for healing many times, and others had prayed for me. I said that people who held the above view had prayed for me and even rebuked the illness. I was not healed, but I testified that God was teaching me much while I had the illness and that I was relying on him more, as I had little strength. I believed that, in time, I would be made whole - which includes physical wholeness - and if that was only after death, that was ok with me.
I was told, point blank, by Word of Faith-ers, that I was not healed because I didn't have faith/that I didn't have enough faith/that I had not asked in the "right" way or that there was some hidden sin that I was not aware of that was preventing God from healing. All the time, the emphasis was put on me - "DO more, PRAY harder, BELIEVE, CONFESS". I was told God could not heal unless these things happened.

Guess what? He healed me anyway! In his time, his way, without any action or effort on my part - so that HE got all the glory.

Jennifer Rees-Larcombe says in her book that she went through the same. In fact, she was even one of those who believed that you had to confess healing and "wellness", and rebuke, dismiss or ignore symptoms.
That attitude didn't prevent her from getting M.E, encephalitis and being bed bound and in a wheelchair for years. Christians told her to pray harder/stop trying to rush God; have more faith/trust him and rest in his love;DO more to help herself and show God how much she wanted healing/relax, trust the Lord and stop trying to rush him.
Eventually, like me, she found that when she stopped focusing on healing, sought the Lord and his love and trusted him, that's when she was healed - and when she wasn't expecting it.

Joni Eareckson-Tada went through all of the above and remains in a wheelchair. Yet, she has founded 2 organisations to help disabled people, written many books, and many have found the Lord/been comforted, challenged etc as a result.
David Watson died of cancer, yet his testimony of God's goodness in suffering helped many, and people found that Lord through him.

God can use both good health, and suffering, for his purposes, to make his people what he wants them to be and bring others to him. His will will not be thwarted because we haven't prayed in the right way.

God's will is the authority. isn't it?
Do I believe in healing YES with all my heart. I believe God is very active in our lives and that He does much healing, But only as He sees fit, When it glorifies Him and is His will.
I also believe that God uses Dr's and nurses and Medicine and herbs and roots and many other things to send forms of healing. I believe in spontaneous healing as well, Such as laying on of hands and anointing with oil. I do this at our church.
Also though, God places a willingness into some peoples minds to go to school and earn their PHD in certain specialty areas and then He uses that individual to perform certain corrective surgeries and such.

 

[RaymondG]

Are you sure it was Hezekiah? Or was it Elijah on Mt Carmel?

Correct. It was Elijah. Now you have no more excuse to say something is in the Word that isnt....you have proven you know how to search these statements out.

 

[Greg J.]

Side note: IMO Jesus' and the Father's desire and will were in perfect unity in the Garden of Gethsemane as was always the case (Hebrews 1:3, Hebrews 5:7). It is not an example of God answering "no;" it is an example of God answering "yes."

He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.” (Matthew 26:42, 1984 NIV)

Jesus' prayed that if another option was not possible his choice was to die. Separate desires and decisions. While the English "will" is ambiguous, it often refers to God's decisions, not his desires. It was neither Jesus' nor the Father's happy desire that Jesus die, but it was the Father's choice and decision. Examine the Father's character for further evidence of what God desires, rather than presuming to know his heart on the basis of what he said or did.

God took the lives of wicked people in both the OT and NT, but he also said,

Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?’ (Ezekiel 33:11, 1984 NIV)

 

[RaymondG]

It sounds like you are referring to Elijah (1 Kings 18:19-39) rather than Hezekiah. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make or what you are trying to understand. We are God's little children; he is not our servant. The disposition of followers of Christ is that God's will be done in everything. Therefore we seek to understand his will so we can pray his will (which can be a part of his will being done on earth) or so we can carry out his will ourselves if he desires. We do not frivolously ask for things for ourselves, but we ask for things that we seriously need or want, the kinds of things that are longstanding deep desires and have possibly been put into us by God in the first place, which he would therefore, of course, answer at some point.

Yes is was Elijah of 1 Kings. The point is.....If you cant trust that God would give you everything you ask for, you cant get into a situation like this....proving your God is real and hears, while the god of another religion is not real. For you, both gods, may just be saying "no." No answer and the fulfillment of your request are both answers. You can then go back to the other group and say, dont worry that your god didnt send the fire.....he still answered but his answer was "no".....or "wait." A dangerous proposition.......makes it easier to understand how the religious could serve the devil when they believed they were serving the Father. If you cant even test the words of the Lord....assuming no answer are answers....how can you know in who you believe?

You seem to be big on the Will of the lord. But are you really? It is His will that none perish. It is HIs will the all come to repentance? Do you believe that all will be saved because this is in His will? If not, then you must believe that man can affect His Will....therefore adding yet another reason for prayers to not be answerd....another reason to give the false prophets for their gods not sending the fire.......

The way to understand many interactions with the Lord is that (1) he decides to do something, (2) he gives the desire to someone for it [or creates them with it], (3) the person prays for it [and/or other deeds are completed], then (4) the person receives what he asked for. God answers those prayers all the time, but the desire for it and the faith to believe he will answer originates with God.

I too believe that it is possible that all your desires are put there by the Lord....and that it is the job of the serpent to judge them as good or bad.

So if you have a desire to ask God for a big house.....maybe He put it there.....so why not ask for it? Why start to doubt and ask if it is His will, or if you really need it etc..?

Delight thyself in the Lord and He will give you the desired of your heart. This is His will....is it not?

 

[Greg J.]

It is His will that none perish. It is HIs will the all come to repentance? Do you believe that all will be saved because this is in His will?

It is his desire that all come to repentance. His decision is that not all will.

If you want to continue this discussion, I suggest posting something more specific in one of the Theology forums.

 

[RaymondG]

It is his desire that all come to repentance. His decision is that not all will.

If you want to continue this discussion, I suggest posting something more specific in one of the Theology forums.

That is no need to go into Theology:
"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him"

Can I trust these words? Or do you feel that God would yes "no" or "wait" if I ask this of Him in this case as well? Would I have to make sure it is His will for me to know this information? Or can I trust these words as written?

I can? How about these words:
"Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full."

 

[Emli]

That is no need to go into Theology:
"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him"

That verse is about asking for wisdom, not about healing.

We then USE the wisdom He gives us to discern His will in the Spirit, so we will know if He wants to heal us or not.

 

[RaymondG]

That verse is about asking for wisdom, not about healing.

We then USE the wisdom He gives us to discern His will in the Spirit, so we will know if He wants to heal us or not.

Ok, so the rule is that if the bible states specifically what to ask for, God will always say YEs, but if it makes an open statement, like "whatsoever" or "all things" He may say no?

 

[Greg J.]

You are looking for concrete boundaries for what is always Truth, such that you can always know what God will do in a certain scenario, but there is no such thing. No matter how we understand Scripture, God does as he pleases according to his nature. In this respect, he is like a person rather than a machine. He even seems to go out of his way to make sure we do not start to think what he will do is predictable—for our benefit—because we would be deceived if we believed that.

 

[RaymondG]

@Emli @Greg J. Im curious, Have you tried asking God for something that you believed was in His will, and for thing that werent...and experienced Him saying Yes and No for the two cases? Asking for something for yourself, that doesnt affect others.....If you know how to pray, you know the additional factors involved in asking for things for others...... So Im only concerned about things for yourselves that dont affect others.

 

[Emli]

Ok, so the rule is that if the bible states specifically what to ask for, God will always say YEs, but if it makes an open statement, like "whatsoever" or "all things" He may say no?

It isn't a set of rules. It's a relationship between us and God, and us learning to live by and pray by His will and not our own, by Him increasing our wisdom and our discernment, and learn His truth and the true faith that He wants us to have.

What I'm saying is that you cannot pull one verse out of context, and then not even read the entire verse. You have to read the WHOLE BIBLE and then pray according to His will, to the best of your understanding as you pray, and God's Spirit will intercede for you as you do. We have to pray according to His will, because our goal as His children while we are still on Earth is to do His will and see His will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. His Kingdom come, His will be done!

If Jesus said that we have to pray according to the will of the Father, we have to set our minds on praying the will of the Father, and not try to make Him do our will.

 

[RaymondG]

You are looking for concrete boundaries for what is always Truth, such that you can always know what God will do in a certain scenario, but there is no such thing. No matter how we understand Scripture, God does as he pleases according to his nature. In this respect, he is like a person rather than a machine. He even seems to go out of his way to make sure we do not start to think what he will do is predictable—for our benefit—because we would be deceived if we believed that.

I have found the laws of God to be concrete and the results of following them Predictable. He is the same yesterday today and forever. I Am the Lord, I change not.

My only problem is that I took Him at His word and Tried Him when He said to try Him. I've found His words to be true and now im sometimes laughed at for declaring it... But if I can encourage just one other to try Him...it would all be worth it.....

 

[Emli]

@Emli @Greg J. Im curious, Have you tried asking God for something that you believed was in His will, and for thing that werent...and experienced Him saying Yes and No for the two cases? Asking for something for yourself, that doesnt affect others.....If you know how to pray, you know the additional factors involved in asking for things for others...... So Im only concerned about things for yourselves that dont affect others.

Yes, and yes. I have asked according to what I thought was His will, and have gotten both yes's and no's, and I have prayed not according to His will, and have gotten a firm NO, and sometimes a very silent no, which later turned into a as I understood what I had asked for. I have also prayed what I thought was not His will, and gotten a firm YES, because apparently, I was wrong and it was really His will. Yay! I have prayed some weird prayers in my life, and I have had some arguments with God, which has led to Him changing His responses after I have done what He has required of me. But guess what? He always wins! It's never my will be done unless my will aligns with His.

We have to let go of our own understanding and just surrender to Him and let Him show us who He is. We are told to pray in the Spirit, and that means that we follow His leading.

 

[RaymondG]

It isn't a set of rules. It's a relationship between us and God, and us learning to live by and pray by His will and not our own, by Him increasing our wisdom and our discernment, and learn His truth and the true faith that He wants us to have.

What I'm saying is that you cannot pull one verse out of context, and then not even read the entire verse. You have to read the WHOLE BIBLE and then pray according to His will, to the best of your understanding as you pray, and God's Spirit will intercede for you as you do. We have to pray according to His will, because our goal as His children while we are still on Earth is to do His will and see His will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. His Kingdom come, His will be done!

If Jesus said that we have to pray according to the will of the Father, we have to set our minds on praying the will of the Father, and not try to make Him do our will.

I find nothing wrong with what you believe, and encourage you to continue to do so, if you believe it right.

 

[Emli]

I find nothing wrong with what you believe, and encourage you to continue to do so, if you believe it right.

Don't take this the wrong way, I don't mean this as an attack at all:

I don't care what you think, because all I seek is God's will. So unless you are too, your opinion doesn't matter to me, and it shouldn't matter to anyone else either. Because we are told to seek the will of God, and not the approval of men. What you should be asking is does God approve of my beliefs?

 

[RaymondG]

Yes, and yes. I have asked according to what I thought was His will, and have gotten both yes's and no's, and I have prayed not according to His will, and have gotten a firm NO, and sometimes a very silent no, which later turned into a as I understood what I had asked for. I have also prayed what I thought was not His will, and gotten a firm YES, because apparently, I was wrong and it was really His will. Yay! I have prayed some weird prayers in my life, and I have had some arguments with God, which has led to Him changing His responses after I have done what He has required of me. But guess what? He always wins! It's never my will be done unless my will aligns with His.

We have to let go of our own understanding and just surrender to Him and let Him show us who He is. We are told to pray in the Spirit, and that means that we follow His leading.

I've prayed these prayers as well....I've gotten yes and no's, argued about the no's, didnt understand why basic prayers werent answered etc. Then I was led to ask "Teach me how to Pray" Once I understood, I received everything I asked for.....And understood how I always did in the past as well. What I thought was a no, was in fact a Yes to exactly what I asked for using the method I used.

I've tested....Asked for random things...and got them.....Some came in unexpected and undesired ways....but they always came quickly. My trying taught me to ask mainly for what I needed and that I have everything already.....like the brother of the Prodigal. So now I can move on to more spiritual things, now that I understood the natural.

I've found the Father to be more of a Patient Father...not one to argue with. If i ask Him for my inheritance to waste, He gives it without question and waits patiently for me to come to my senses. When I do, He receives me again.

Maybe my words should be laughed at, Maybe I serve the Devil and you serve God. But maybe not. Good thing is, My words can be tested. I dont know how you would test a situation that has "nos" "waits" "if His wills" and exceptions. But I believe I'll run on and see what the end will be...

 

[RaymondG]

Don't take this the wrong way, I don't mean this as an attack at all:

I don't care what you think, because all I seek is God's will. So unless you are too, your opinion doesn't matter to me, and it shouldn't matter to anyone else either. Because we are told to seek the will of God, and not the approval of men. What you should be asking is does God approve of my beliefs?

The one you could attack or offend has died, and Christ cannot be offended. No need to worry about your words affecting me as they are just words....nothing more....MY heart and mind is guarded.

Our beliefs affect ourselves....and our prayers......As you must first believe that HE is, and that he is a rewarder to them that seek HIm. Therefore, your beliefs matter to you and you alone...not me...unless I choose to believe what you say myself.

Like I said, I find no fault in what you believe. Be it unto you as you believe.