healing and forgiveness

[Strong in Him]

just as God is not willing that any should perish, so all are saved. right?

No, we can choose whether or not to accept that Jesus died for us and is the only way to the Father and the giver of eternal life. We can choose whether or not to invite him into our hearts as our Lord and submit our will to his. God will accept our choices.

I can choose to eat healthily; others can choose not to smoke, drink, do drugs or can choose to exercise regularly. But I did not choose to be ill; in fact I doubt that anyone does. I've heard of people who always took care of themselves, kept fit and yet died suddenly of a heart attack. They did not choose for their lives to end suddenly like that, they just did. Babies don't chose to be born with disabilies or to die. Illness is not usually something we have much control over.

Why do you think Christians who are unwell or disabled ask God, who is our healer and Father, to heal us?

Because we think we might as well give it a go?
Because going to a healing service might turn out to be more productive than watching what's on tv that night?
Because we don't believe that God will answer our prayers, and this will give us a good excuse to stop believing in him?
Because walking to the front of the church in front of everyone will make us look spiritual, and if we do get healed we might even get into the paper?

Or because we believe that God, our Creator, loving heavenly Father and healer who is concerned about every area of our lives and has asked that those who ask in his name will receive, wants us to be healed and whole?

Many Christians do, and have, prayed in faith, asking God to heal them. Not every Christian is, or has been, physically healed. God is not incapable of healing; it's not too hard for him and he is able to heal instantly if he wishes - with or without prayer from us. If he doesn't, he has a reason for it.

In my experience, some Christians are unable to accept this and point the finger asking "what have you done? Why are you blocking it?"

 

[Strong in Him]

The topic is our own inherent healing abilities and emotions such as unforgiveness interfering with healing.

So why did you choose to post this in the General Theology section of the forum then (theology = study of God), if all you wanted to say was; "isn't it wonderful how our bodies have inherent healing systems, and by the way, if you are ill and your body doesn't heal itself, there is a 95% chance that it's because you haven't forgiven someone"?

Just curious.

I still disagree with that statistic; and I still think it's true to say that while sin may be a factor in someone's condition, (refusing to forgive = holding a grudge = a sin); it's by no means certain that if they are forgiven and themselves forgive, then that chronic condition will heal.

 

[sunlover1]

The topic is our own inherent healing abilities and emotions such as unforgiveness interfering with healing.

Our bodies are wonderfully made and the healing abilities are
incredible. As someone who's given birth 8 times, I find it
amazing when I look at how the body changes so drastically,
and then goes right back to like new condition.

So this thread is NOT about praying for healing?

 

[Catherineanne]

So this thread is NOT about praying for healing?

I wish it were.

This thread is a variant of blaming the victims for the crime.

 

[katherine2001]

I wish it were.

This thread is a variant of blaming the victims for the crime.

You are exactly right about this. I have seen so many people damaged by this teaching, as well as the teaching that if you have enough faith, God has to do whatever you ask Him to do, including physically healing you. If God doesn't physically heal you, then you must have enough faith. People like Joni Erickson Tada evidently don't have enough faith. But God is not a cosmic magic genie who must give us whatever we wish for. True faith is when you love and follow God even when He doesn't answer your prayers the way you ask Him to do. True faith is when you are willing to love and follow God even when He doesn't physically heal you. It is always God's will to heal our souls, but it is not always His will to heal us physically. By the way, it is very possible to have a healed body and still have a very sick soul. I wonder if Joni Erickson Tada would be the beautiful Christian she is if God had healed her body soon after she was left a quadriplegic after a diving accident at the age of 17. Would Fanny Crosby have written the beautiful hymns she wrote if God had healed her blindness. I have known many Christians who had chronic illnesses who have taught me so much about faith, love, and compassion. Real faith is when you are willing for God's will to be done whatever that will is, even if His will is not what you would like it to be.

 

[Strong in Him]

You are exactly right about this. I have seen so many people damaged by this teaching, as well as the teaching that if you have enough faith, God has to do whatever you ask Him to do, including physically healing you. If God doesn't physically heal you, then you must have enough faith. People like Joni Erickson Tada evidently don't have enough faith. But God is not a cosmic magic genie who must give us whatever we wish for. True faith is when you love and follow God even when He doesn't answer your prayers the way you ask Him to do. True faith is when you are willing to love and follow God even when He doesn't physically heal you. It is always God's will to heal our souls, but it is not always His will to heal us physically. By the way, it is very possible to have a healed body and still have a very sick soul. I wonder if Joni Erickson Tada would be the beautiful Christian she is if God had healed her body soon after she was left a quadriplegic after a diving accident at the age of 17. Would Fanny Crosby have written the beautiful hymns she wrote if God had healed her blindness. I have known many Christians who had chronic illnesses who have taught me so much about faith, love, and compassion. Real faith is when you are willing for God's will to be done whatever that will is, even if His will is not what you would like it to be.

Well said. Joni Eareckson Tada is an amazing woman. I love her books.

 

[Catherineanne]

You are exactly right about this. I have seen so many people damaged by this teaching, as well as the teaching that if you have enough faith, God has to do whatever you ask Him to do, including physically healing you. If God doesn't physically heal you, then you must have enough faith. People like Joni Erickson Tada evidently don't have enough faith. But God is not a cosmic magic genie who must give us whatever we wish for. True faith is when you love and follow God even when He doesn't answer your prayers the way you ask Him to do. True faith is when you are willing to love and follow God even when He doesn't physically heal you. It is always God's will to heal our souls, but it is not always His will to heal us physically. By the way, it is very possible to have a healed body and still have a very sick soul. I wonder if Joni Erickson Tada would be the beautiful Christian she is if God had healed her body soon after she was left a quadriplegic after a diving accident at the age of 17. Would Fanny Crosby have written the beautiful hymns she wrote if God had healed her blindness. I have known many Christians who had chronic illnesses who have taught me so much about faith, love, and compassion. Real faith is when you are willing for God's will to be done whatever that will is, even if His will is not what you would like it to be.

 

[Merlin]

So why did you choose to post this in the General Theology section of the forum then (theology = study of God),

God created us.

if all you wanted to say was; "isn't it wonderful how our bodies have inherent healing systems, and by the way, if you are ill and your body doesn't heal itself, there is a 95% chance that it's because you haven't forgiven someone"?

that was never said.

I still disagree with that statistic; and I still think it's true to say that while sin may be a factor in someone's condition, (refusing to forgive = holding a grudge = a sin); it's by no means certain that if they are forgiven and themselves forgive, then that chronic condition will heal.

That's not quite what was said either.

 

[Merlin]

Our bodies are wonderfully made and the healing abilities are
incredible. As someone who's given birth 8 times, I find it
amazing when I look at how the body changes so drastically,
and then goes right back to like new condition.

did it require divine intervention?

So this thread is NOT about praying for healing?

nope about our being so wonderfully made.

 

[Merlin]

No, we can choose whether or not to accept that Jesus died for us and is the only way to the Father and the giver of eternal life. We can choose whether or not to invite him into our hearts as our Lord and submit our will to his. God will accept our choices.

I can choose to eat healthily; others can choose not to smoke, drink, do drugs or can choose to exercise regularly.

or even forgive.

But I did not choose to be ill; in fact I doubt that anyone does.

you'd be surprised.

I've heard of people who always took care of themselves, kept fit and yet died suddenly of a heart attack. They did not choose for their lives to end suddenly like that,

you don't know that. it's just your belief system

they just did. Babies don't chose to be born with disabilies or to die.

you don't know that either.

Illness is not usually something we have much control over.

but we can!

 

[Strong in Him]

God created us.

Indeed he did, but you didn't say that in your first post, nor, I don't think, have you ever really said it.

that was never said.

Not those words, but that has been the gist of your posts. (I've underlined the main bits.)

This may not go over well
anyway, healing often requires forgiveness (by the sick person)
which people have trouble doing.

it's not specifically scriptural.
it's personal experience working with cancer, diabetes, etc.
it effects our natural abilities to heal.

about 95% of chronic illness, whether cancer, diabetes, ALS, MD, Fibromyalgia, and on and on

That's not quite what was said either.

It was strongly implied. If unforgiveness affects the body's natural ability to heal, and about 95% of chronic illnesses such as cancer are caused by uforgiveness (your words, not mine); then forgiveness has to be given before any healing can take place. They were almost your first words; healing often requires forgiveness by the sick person. That suggests that when a person who is physically ill forgives, their physical healing will take place, or at least begin.

You have said that this is not Scriptural and give no scientific evidence. You only have the "evidence" of your own experience - which I don't discount, but it is not proof that 95% of evryone who has cancer etc has failed, or refused, to forgive someone.

 

[Thekla]

the greatest illness, the greatest distortion, is death.

Our Saviour voluntarily experienced the "greatest illness"; it is through His voluntary sacrifice that all healing from this illness/parasite (death) is granted. And Christ did forgive from the cross; His words are recorded.

We cannot 'heal ourselves'; there is only one Who heals which is the same as the only one Who can truly forgive.

 

[Strong in Him]

or even forgive.

Of course, but that's no guarantee of physical healing and there may not even be a connection.

you'd be surprised.

Maybe. I can understand that some people might choose to remain ill, if they think they'll get sympathy/attention/benefits/out of work or enjoy being waited on or wrapped in cotton wool. And some people "throw a sickie" to get a day off work just because they're tired or have a hangover. But I'd be very surprised if anyone deliberately ate dodgy food to get food poisoning, or whatever.

you don't know that. it's just your belief system

And it seems to be your belief system that our minds control absolutely everything that happens in, and to, our bodies. While I do agree that the two are connected, there's no doubt about that, the implication from your, and some other, posts on here seems to be that if we decide to be well; we will. And if we decide, and choose, to clear our minds of all negative emoptions, then physical healing WILL happen. That's too simplistic. It may happen for some people, but it doesn't for others. No one can make their limbs grow, or a dead heart restart itself just by positive thinking.

God does heal, and in many ways. And it is true that he may want to heal someone of their hurts/damaged emotions/bad experiences or whatever before healing their bodies. It may even be true for some that when these have been healed, then physical healing will take place soon afterwards. That is still different from saying that we heal ourselves, largely by positive thinking, or choosing to be well. That may not be exactly how you intended it, but that's how it's come across.

And young babies don't know anything about sin or unforgiveness, so how can their death be because of them?

 

[sk8Joyful]

So why did you choose to post this in the General Theology section of the forum then (theology = study of God)

Hi
What a most appropriate! place, here in "theology" to study about how Wonderfully GOD made us, and the abilities He blessed us with, such as healing...
also,
may I thank you for sticking with this thread, in a mostly positive way. And while the thinking continues circular, it's understandable - because as a, sadly, 'new-concept' to some Christians, it can empower your mind, and enable you to enlarge your perspective, of how else you can live your life... to the Praise, honor & glory of GOD <-- this is what He created us for, right?

GOD wants us to enjoy all the blessings of which we are capable, including evidently healing.

(Many don't heal -
once imprinted with warped, twisted interpretations, telling them healing is bad, or evil by Bible-translators, & preachers.
also
9/10 of Sick-care dollars are in "disease-management", (not healing),
and "Give us more $$$, so we can find a cure". Just imagine how much $money$ could be saved if instead, EMT's/docs/nurses/etc. were "trained" to empower... 24/7, people in their healing...
also
More people, than many are willing to admit, have 2ndary-gain issues, not to heal.
For instance, last year here in CF, a young man wrote in the physical-health section: I don't wanna serve in the Armed-forces, surely I can get some chronic disease that disqualifies me. -
And many, like $Disability checks$ for similar reasons: Why go to work, when one can sit at their computer, & collect rep-points. - Some people actually exist that way.
There's a zillion excuses why someone may not heal.
However,

Merlin's thread is about: Healing as a wonderful ability... that often involves forgiveness, as another ability GOD created us with.

Enjoy! a nice day

 

[Melethiel]

you don't know that either.

Did the man born blind choose to be born that way?
Who did he have to forgive in order to be healed?

 

[katherine2001]

What about a baby who dies within hours of its birth? What did it need to forgive in order to be healed?

 

[Strong in Him]

Hi
What a most appropriate! place, here in "theology" to study about how Wonderfully GOD made us, and the abilities He blessed us with, such as healing...

Yes, but that was not immediately clear. If the OP had said something like; (these are my words)

"It says in Psalm 139 that we are fearfully and wonderfully made, and indeed God has given us amazing bodies that are capable of healing themselves after a wound or white blood cells which fight off infections before we are aware that we have them. But there is more of a link between our emotional and our physical health than people realise. Did you know, for example, that refusing to forgive someone may cause, or prolong a physical illness? What are your thoughts on this?"

Then I think there may have been far less misunderstanding and upset caused. But the OP merely said that healing often requires forgiveness by the sick person, and later made the specific claim that 95% of chronic illness is caused by unforgiveness. This claim has not been backed up either by scientific or Scriptural evidence, and is bound to cause some upset/angst among those of us who have a chronic illness and see it as being a rather simplistic "solution". It does imply that if we are chronically ill then it is very likely that it's because we have not forgiven someone, and the way it was said does come across as rather judgemental. It may be a factor for some people, then again, it may not.

And while the thinking continues circular, it's understandable - because as a, sadly, 'new-concept' to some Christians, it can empower your mind, and enable you to enlarge your perspective, of how else you can live your life... to the Praise, honor & glory of GOD <-- this is what He created us for, right?

But the implication has been that if you remain disabled or chronically ill, then you cannot praise God or live your life for him. That is nonsense, of course you can.

GOD wants us to enjoy all the blessings of which we are capable, including evidently healing.

This suggests to me that WE are capable of healing ourselves and owe it to ourselves to do so because this is what God wants. Which says that healing is something we do ourselves, not necessarily anything to do with God (although it was good of him to make our bodies this way in the first place). As I said before, this is almost humanistic thinking - a quick nod to God who made us, but after that, it's up to us; it all depends on us, even the glory of God, which will only be seen when we are healed. I know you haven't used those exact words, but that's the impression I've been getting from reading some of your posts. And that's nonsense too. Firstly because God heals. He may well do it through our own body's healing systems or defences; viruses often clear up on their own, not all cuts need stitches, bones can mend themselves and so on. He may heal by working through doctors, e.g chemotherapy may get rid of a cancer that would not go away otherwise if left alone. Or he may step in to heal immediately and miraculously. I don't know why he sometimes chooses one method and not another, why one person may be healed instantly from caner while another has to go through debilitating therapy. He has his reasons, and it could be that we learn more about his faithfulness and love by trusting him in the hard times than if we were to have the illness immediately removed. He is God, he loves us and he knows what he is doing. But however he chooses to do it, it is he who has healed. Pride that we may have somehow brought about our own healing all by ourselves, is wrong.

(Many don't heal -
once imprinted with warped, twisted interpretations, telling them healing is bad,

Healing is good, but it is possible to be a Christian, and praise, serve and glorify God even if you have not been physically healed. Physical healing is not everything; you could die, aged 150, with a perfect body, and still not have a relationship with God. When your body is dead, your relationship with him will be all you have.

Some people have great physical health, but their emotional/spiritual lives may be a mess. They may be held back in their walk with God because of some past hurt, or because they don't trust God as a Father, or they don't believe in the holy Spirit, or they have been hurt by bad doctrine and so on. Good physical health is not an indication that everything is right with you in other ways. Some non Christians are very fit and well; they are still sinners.

9/10 of Sick-care dollars are in "disease-management", (not healing),
and "Give us more $$$, so we can find a cure". Just imagine how much $money$ could be saved if instead, EMT's/docs/nurses/etc. were "trained" to empower... 24/7, people in their healing...

So why don't you do it then if it's that easy? Again, you're almost implying that we can train the mind or body to overcome anything. Healing is from US, all praise to the great human being. It's not that easy. I'm sure a Positive Mental atitude is important, and no doubt you could come up with cases of people who have been healed, and attribute their healing to that and nothing else. But equally there are people who badly want to live and are being poitive and doing all the right things, who still die.
Doctors are not the bad guys, medicine is not worthless. Years ago, people died from smallpox, TB, cholera (still are in Zimbabwe) and other things besides. Today some of these diseases have been wiped out by the introduction of a simple vaccine - produced after research. You may never have had mealses or mumps; but the chances are it's because you were vaccinated against them as a child. In this country, cases of measles have risen because some parents didn't want their children to have the jab.

More people, than many are willing to admit, have 2ndary-gain issues, not to heal.
For instance, last year here in CF, a young man wrote in the physical-health section: I don't wanna serve in the Armed-forces, surely I can get some chronic disease that disqualifies me. -
And many, like $Disability checks$ for similar reasons: Why go to work, when one can sit at their computer, & collect rep-points. - Some people actually exist that way.

Yes, there ARE people who want to remain ill, or who prefer to get paid for not doing any work, or who claim benefits, and are then found to have faked or exaggerated, their symptoms so they can get those benefits (and some then work as well.) The latter are lazy, dishonest and sometimes make it harder for the rest of us to be taken seriously.

This is still no reason for suggesting that all unhealed people remain so by their own choice, could be healed if they put their minds to it (positive thinking, or whatever) and need to learn to forgive to make that healing happen.

 

[Strong in Him]

What about a baby who dies within hours of its birth? What did it need to forgive in order to be healed?

Exactly - or one that is stillborn? Such children do not even know what forgiveness is, far less have the chance to with-hold it.

 

[sk8Joyful]

Did the man born blind choose to be born that way?
Who did he have to forgive in order to be healed?

Most people know we are each different, in our choices. This includes choices we make before birth,
while still developing & growing in utero. During these critical about 9-months in our developments,
we are there also more limited, for at least 3 reasons:
For instance, it was discovered that each of mom's strong beliefs,
emotions, & thought-processes... directly influence each baby, via hormones etc.

1. Each preborn is physically tethered, attached to mom via the umbilical cord; so unless baby is really driven-away, how can you expect a preborn to respond to harmful sensations such as Anger, anxiety, depression, disgust, disappointment, fear, jealousy, rage, sadness, & other overpowering negative emotions; like what are those strange things?? I don't like how they make me feel, so I'm leaving now. Good bye!" - No, most learn to endure, come what may; later often suffering (seemingly-unexplainable) consequences.
&
2. Also once we're born, we have more choices: we can cry, & hopefully someone caring, loving, & kind will come to our aid , support , nourishing & nurture Later on, possibilities exist that we could walk/run & tell another person our vital... needs. - Such & others are numerous choices, that obviously no preborn has. Tragically, whatever (including dysfunctional/sick) in utero environment they find themselves in, preborns are more/less 'stuck'.
&
3. Also, notice most small children aim to please their parents, whether survival instinct, or out of love.
So as a preborn is continuously, repetitively, & persistently hit/impacted with overpoweringly destructive emotions, he/she might encounter more trouble determining "Is this dad's? abuse towards mom, or is this mom's? crazy beliefs or thoughts, or is this all my fault?" - Mortally experience-wise severely limited, a pre-born sometimes chooses to die (stillborn), or develop-abnormally, in mind-processes similar to how children & adults also develop abnormal conditions, dis~eases, etc.

Having substantiated such knowledge, from day in & out helping people heal, is why Merlin said:

"But I did not choose to be ill; in fact I doubt that anyone does."
​

you'd be surprised.

I've heard of people who always took care of themselves, kept fit and yet died suddenly of a heart attack.
They did not choose for their lives to end suddenly like that, they just did.
​

you don't know that. it's just your belief system

Babies don't chose to be born with disabilies or to die.
​

you don't know that either."


As I keep saying, most of what makes a pre-born, child, or adult function,
will never be seen with mechanical-instruments no matter how powerful,
because we make these decisions at the level of our subconscious mind/soul team.

The Good news is, that when such a person wants help, wants (like GOD wants for us) to functionally enjoy life more... then often such people have, & can be helped, via the same mind/soul team that developed specific challenges to begin with.

(disclaimer: more complicated are drugs, or med.-malpractice actions, or trauma caused malformations, or death like abortions.
*from-the-dead-resurrection* belongs in GOD's department.
When everything is done in someone's favor , certainly CPR (as a first-aid measure) succeeds;
provided the particular soul/mind hasn't decided 'I'm leaving; Good bye')

 

[Catherineanne]

I am no longer going to tolerate posts which include lies about our faith and our God, or about healing, because they are a disgrace to our faith, and bring it into disrepute.

No more feeding of any trolls; from this point, each one will be reported, then disregarded.

Unless, of course, the writer is fortunate enough already to be on my ignore list.