Head of GOARCH says that non-Orthodox spouses may receive communion

[rakovsky]

we are also talking about Orthodoxy's official calendar, which wouldn't have a schismatic on it.

ROCOR has King Harold II of England on its calendar. One theory in ROCOR is that Harold II was an Orthodox king because he ruled about the time of the Schism and the Pope supported William the Conqueror and the French against him and against the current bishop in England.

ROCOR's theory is that King Harold II was a pre-schism saint... but when I showed my sympathy for this idea to other EOs, they tended to denigrate the idea. For one, you could suppose that Harold II's Church in England probably accepted the Filioque and alot of other features by which the RC Church distinguished itself from the EOs. When Harold II's court went into exile in Ukraine in the decades after the Norman Conquest and the Great Schism, their English cities in Ukraine deliberately took bishops from Hungary, probably because it was under the Latin Rite which they were brought up in.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Certainly the EO POV is that an RC has something lacking, but the implication is not necessarily having a valid baptism.

Fr. Matt, I like how you quickly write back answering questions that people bring up.
If you take the view that RC commuion is invalid and that one should never take it, you are in good company with Prof. Osipov. And even Abp. Elpidophoros is now openly saying that the EO position is no regular communion for hetorodox spouses. I am not sure whether he told L100 that the spouses may commune, but I don't feel that I care enough to find out for sure. If he did, he has now backtracked and abandoned that position.

Regarding the validity of heterodox sacraments, and particularly baptism, I read an MP theological article on a Russian website analyzing the theories expressed by Orthodox theologians. It had a range of views and in this regard reminded me of a similar EO theologian's article discussing the RC teaching on the Immaculate (sinless) Conception of Mary and EO views on that teaching. Namely, EO theologians don't emphasize Mary's "Immaculate Conception", but the EO article explained different views and reasons.

For instance, one idea is that EOs don't accept the RC idea of original sin being passed down biologically, and hence all births are "immaculate" from sin in the way that Mary's would be. ie. the RC belief is that God miraculously made Mary herself born without sin as an exception to the RC belief that all people are born genetically guilty of Adam's Original Sin. the RCs believe that this occurred so that Jesus Himself would be free from sin in His birth, coming from Her flesh. And so while we EOs do accept Mary's Immaculate Conception, the issue is moot for us, because everyone has an immaculate conception.
Another idea was that Mary always in her life remained personally free from the stain of sin. This idea is taught by the RCs and by some EOs. We sing that she is "most pure", etc.
Yet there has also been patristic speculation that Mary at some point sinned or may have sinned, like when Jesus' family called for Him to come home because he was preaching publicly and Jesus commented that whoever does the will of His Father is His Brother, Mother, and Sister. And the article may have speculated that even if Mary sinned, the issue is moot in terms of Jesus' own sanctity and sinlessness, since the EOs don't believe that sin is passed down biologically.
The EO article expressed other viewpoints as well, and the conclusion was that different views in Orthodoxy can be found on the topic.

The same phenomenon, a range of views appeared in the Russian article on baptism in heterodox churches. The question that the article was trying to answer was: Why is it that heterodox Trinitarians don't require rebaptism to convert to Orthodoxy? One view in the article expressed by theologians was that Catholic baptism as a sacrament is valid, and that this is the reason why rebaptism isn't required. The source of the belief that they don't need rebaptism is the very age old EO and patristic teaching and practice that they don't. Unfortunately, the early Tradition did not pass down an explanation of why they don't need baptism.
The Russian article considered that another EO view is that they don't need rebaptism because of "Ekonomia". But the same article, IIRC, criticized this idea and endorsed or seem to endorse the idea that they didn't need rebaptism because their initial sacrament was valid.
One idea is that the situation is like the story when Jesus heard that someone who was not part of the apostles' group was healing (or baptising also?) in His name. Jesus said that it was Okay because the person wasn't against them. I guess you could argue back that someone in the RC Church is implicitly against the apostles because the EO church and the RC one have different teachings on some issues.
Maybe one of the article's ideas was that you can't treat RC baptism as fulfilling the sacrament by "ekonomia" - either it is valid or not, and if it's not valid, then you can't use ekonomia to say that we can use it as a component of the person's sacramental life.
I would have to go through the article again, but my own view is that if people aren't requiring rebaptism, then the implication is that their first baptism was valid. Chrismation is a separate sacrament. If the first baptism was invalid due to incompletion, then something would have to be done to that baptismal rite itself to make it valid or complete or just do a valid one instead.

the problem is that the Body of Christ is an Divine-organic entity, so if you are outside of her, your lack affects everything.

and many opinions doesn't mean much. just because an EO person says something, that doesn't automatically make it an option.

 

[ArmyMatt]

ROCOR has King Harold II of England on its calendar. One theory in ROCOR is that Harold II was an Orthodox king because he ruled about the time of the Schism and the Pope supported William the Conqueror and the French against him and against the current bishop in England.

ROCOR's theory is that King Harold II was a pre-schism saint... but when I showed my sympathy for this idea to other EOs, they tended to denigrate the idea. For one, you could suppose that Harold II's Church in England probably accepted the Filioque and alot of other features by which the RC Church distinguished itself from the EOs. When Harold II's court went into exile in Ukraine in the decades after the Norman Conquest and the Great Schism, their English cities in Ukraine deliberately took bishops from Hungary, probably because it was under the Latin Rite which they were brought up in.

I have yet to meet a ROCOR person who celebrates King Harold.

but be that as it may, that's still different since he didn't die long after Rome's break with Orthodoxy. St Isaac did live after the split with the ACE so the Church would have a clear heterodox on the calendar if he was Nestorian. that's another reason I don't think he is.

 

[E.C.]

I visited an OCA parish in Birmingham, AL and the priest, and deacon were very particular about whether or not I was Orthodox if I were to be receiving the Holy Eucharist. I'm glad they were doing it properly, and it didn't seem wrong, or out of place to me.

On a side note the presiding priest was outstanding, and I've really enjoyed his homilies.

I visited that church once. When I left my Navy school in Mississippi I couldn't get a car blessing from the priest in Jackson, MS first; so, I had contacted the priest in Birmingham asking if I could stop by. He blessed the car and we had lunch afterwards. I don't remember his name, but at the time their new church was under construction. Nice people.

 

[Dorothea]

Unsurprisingly, OrthoChristian's report has proven to be completely true: Abp. Elpidophoros publicly reiterates his stance on open Communion for non-Orthodox spouses

Of course, he shared his personal opinion, which Father Tom Hopko used to do to separate his speaking for the Church and dogmatically on issues. Having said that, a bishop speaking as he does in that video, will confuse the laypeople in the Greek Orthodox Church in America, especially those who don't understand the difference. It's not a good thing, but as long as he isn't demanding or going about putting this into action, he isn't acting against the Church's teachings, if that makes sense.

Imo, generally speaking, the Greek Orthodox Church has been weakening over the years, and especially lately. Just what I've seen, and I'm a member of GOC here in Colorado. Perhaps my presbytera had been right when we were discussing the last days and how the GOC Patriachate would be one to fall away. This seems, unfortunately, more likely with what we've seen, as I've said, as of late.

 

[Basil the Great]

If a spouse gets married in the Orthodox Church, but never becomes a member, is he/she eligible for a Church funeral upon death?

 

[ArmyMatt]

If a spouse gets married in the Orthodox Church, but never becomes a member, is he/she eligible for a Church funeral upon death?

no.

 

[Basil the Great]

I thought so. Thanks.

 

[ArmyMatt]

no problem. what you can do is a trisagion for those who die outside of the Orthodox faith.

 

[E.C.]

Of course, he shared his personal opinion, which Father Tom Hopko used to do to separate his speaking for the Church and dogmatically on issues. Having said that, a bishop speaking as he does in that video, will confuse the laypeople in the Greek Orthodox Church in America, especially those who don't understand the difference. It's not a good thing, but as long as he isn't demanding or going about putting this into action, he isn't acting against the Church's teachings, if that makes sense.

Imo, generally speaking, the Greek Orthodox Church has been weakening over the years, and especially lately. Just what I've seen, and I'm a member of GOC here in Colorado. Perhaps my presbytera had been right when we were discussing the last days and how the GOC Patriachate would be one to fall away. This seems, unfortunately, more likely with what we've seen, as I've said, as of late.

The GOARCH has been falling for a long time. Just look at how they operate. They adopted pews and organs instead of English. Too many treat non-Greeks like the barbarians that Greeks think non-Greeks are. They, like Italians in the Catholic Church, think that just because they have Constantinople it means they own the Church. They, according to an ex-GOARCH priest now retired OCA military chaplain, don't encourage the spiritual life at all and instead push their kids to become doctors, lawyers, or bankers. They think it's more important to know Greek dancing than basic Orthodoxy. They think that marrying anyone non-Greek is equal to leaving the Church.
They also don't encourage missionary work. Archbishop John (Rennetau) of the Archdiocese of Russian Orthodox churches in Western Europe was under the EP and last year reunited with Moscow. He had said that when he met the EP, he had been told, "You are not there for missionary work. You are only there to minister to the Greeks in the diaspora".

The writing has been on the wall for decades.

 

[All4Christ]

If a spouse gets married in the Orthodox Church, but never becomes a member, is he/she eligible for a Church funeral upon death?

If the spouse becomes a catechumen, he/she is eligible for Church funeral though.

 

[Vasileios]

Sorry to bring a point from a couple pages back but I am very curious (and skeptic I confess) about the big disagreement between saint Paisios and the clairvoyant elder. Is there more information about this, who was the elder and what the issue was? I would very much appreciate it. Thank you!

 

[rusmeister]

The GOARCH has been falling for a long time. Just look at how they operate. They adopted pews and organs instead of English. Too many treat non-Greeks like the barbarians that Greeks think non-Greeks are. They, like Italians in the Catholic Church, think that just because they have Constantinople it means they own the Church. They, according to an ex-GOARCH priest now retired OCA military chaplain, don't encourage the spiritual life at all and instead push their kids to become doctors, lawyers, or bankers. They think it's more important to know Greek dancing than basic Orthodoxy. They think that marrying anyone non-Greek is equal to leaving the Church.
They also don't encourage missionary work. Archbishop John (Rennetau) of the Archdiocese of Russian Orthodox churches in Western Europe was under the EP and last year reunited with Moscow. He had said that when he met the EP, he had been told, "You are not there for missionary work. You are only there to minister to the Greeks in the diaspora".

The writing has been on the wall for decades.

The worldliness of the Greek parish near my mother’s home when she was inquiring into Orthodoxy a few years back drove her to run away to Ahmadi Islam.

 

[icxn]

Sorry to bring a point from a couple pages back but I am very curious (and skeptic I confess) about the big disagreement between saint Paisios and the clairvoyant elder. Is there more information about this, who was the elder and what the issue was? I would very much appreciate it. Thank you!

It was Saint Porphyrios. Contrary to what the poster said and from what I remember, Saint Paisios accepted the correction with humility and thanked him. The subject was to stop speaking about the Antichrist and try to bring people to Christ through love rather than fear. (Source)

 

[Phronema]

I'm one of the ones in a GOARCH parish, and I'll add that not all GOARCH parishes are so worldly. I think it largely depends on the local demographic, and the priest. That said I'm not always too pleased with what I read about the Ecumenical Patriarch, or Archbishop Elpidophoros doing, and saying.

Throughout history different Patriarchates have gone off the rails a bit here, and there, but the church as a whole will right itself I believe in one way or another. Anyhow, not all parishes under GOARCH are terrible in my opinion.

 

[E.C.]

The worldliness of the Greek parish near my mother’s home when she was inquiring into Orthodoxy a few years back drove her to run away to Ahmadi Islam.

Wow! That's quite a jump!

I've heard far too many sad stories of people genuinely interested in Orthodoxy being turned away by Greek parishes being told that "only Greeks and Slavs can be Orthodox. You're an American. You can't be Orthodox."

I'm one of the ones in a GOARCH parish, and I'll add that not all GOARCH parishes are so worldly. I think it largely depends on the local demographic, and the priest. That said I'm not always too pleased with what I read about the Ecumenical Patriarch, or Archbishop Elpidophoros doing, and saying.

Throughout history different Patriarchates have gone off the rails a bit here, and there, but the church as a whole will right itself I believe in one way or another. Anyhow, not all parishes under GOARCH are terrible in my opinion.

As much as I throw the GOARCH under the bus, I agree that there are good parishes. One of my favorites was in Spokane, WA. Spokane had an influx of Ukrainians after the Wall fell and they went to this parish because it was the only Orthodox church in town. The church acknowledged their changing demographic (which many parishes don't do) and started adopting Slavonic music for their new immigrants. The last time I was there, 2013/14?, was for Christmas. They used about 10% Greek, then 45/45 English and Slavonic.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

I'm one of the ones in a GOARCH parish, and I'll add that not all GOARCH parishes are so worldly. I think it largely depends on the local demographic, and the priest. That said I'm not always too pleased with what I read about the Ecumenical Patriarch, or Archbishop Elpidophoros doing, and saying.

Throughout history different Patriarchates have gone off the rails a bit here, and there, but the church as a whole will right itself I believe in one way or another. Anyhow, not all parishes under GOARCH are terrible in my opinion.

Yeah, it's a mixed bag really. I had my Holy Chrismation and Holy Baptism in and go to a Greek Orthodox Parish.

Even within just one parish you can see the differences between all the different types of people who go there.


.

 

[Dorothea]

Wow! That's quite a jump!

I've heard far too many sad stories of people genuinely interested in Orthodoxy being turned away by Greek parishes being told that "only Greeks and Slavs can be Orthodox. You're an American. You can't be Orthodox."


As much as I throw the GOARCH under the bus, I agree that there are good parishes. One of my favorites was in Spokane, WA. Spokane had an influx of Ukrainians after the Wall fell and they went to this parish because it was the only Orthodox church in town. The church acknowledged their changing demographic (which many parishes don't do) and started adopting Slavonic music for their new immigrants. The last time I was there, 2013/14?, was for Christmas. They used about 10% Greek, then 45/45 English and Slavonic.

Yep. I used to go to Holy Trinity in Spokane when we lived there from 2003-2007.

 

[Dorothea]

I'm one of the ones in a GOARCH parish, and I'll add that not all GOARCH parishes are so worldly. I think it largely depends on the local demographic, and the priest. That said I'm not always too pleased with what I read about the Ecumenical Patriarch, or Archbishop Elpidophoros doing, and saying.

Throughout history different Patriarchates have gone off the rails a bit here, and there, but the church as a whole will right itself I believe in one way or another. Anyhow, not all parishes under GOARCH are terrible in my opinion.

Same here. I think it depends on where you are, too. I didn't go to Greek Orthodox Churches in the Boston area. I went to the local Antiochian Orthodox Church because their service was all in English. But in the Northeast, for the most part, I was turned off by the way some of the churches were there. Very ethnic--ethnic clubs. It was like, everyone stayed within their own ethnic group there. I realize that many immigrants came and come off the boat to the MA shores, so it's more ethnic. I found the more West you go, the less ethnic. My home parish in Colorado Springs is a good mixture of Greek, Romanians, converts, a few slavs, Palestinians, and a Jordanian. Our chanter is Palestinian, and our priest is of Albanian background married to a Greek woman.

 

[Phronema]

My home parish in Colorado Springs is a good mixture of Greek, Romanians, converts, a few slavs, Palestinians, and a Jordanian. Our chanter is Palestinian, and our priest is of Albanian background married to a Greek woman.

This sounds like my Greek parish. Years ago they were primarily Greek, but now days it's much like what you've listed here. When it comes time for the "Our Father" prayer it's in about 9 different languages for all the different folks who attend. We have English, Greek, Russian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Italian, Spanish, Arabic, and German in I believe that order usually. I think as time goes on we'll see less and less of the ethnic clubs, and hopefully GOARCH will help to promote this. Really an American Orthodox Church would be ideal, but that probably won't happen in my lifetime.