Head of GOARCH says that non-Orthodox spouses may receive communion

[Vasileios]

It was Saint Porphyrios. Contrary to what the poster said and from what I remember, Saint Paisios accepted the correction with humility and thanked him. The subject was to stop speaking about the Antichrist and try to bring people to Christ through love rather than fear. (Source)

That's exactly what I thought, I know the issue and it definitely does not support the notion that two charismatic elders say completely contradictory things. In fact Saint Porphyrios did not say that what Saint Paisios was saying was wrong but that it was not beneficial to emphasize it and that it would be detrimental to a lot of people. This was particularly about a text he wrote and some of his visitors started copying and sending around. In the end it was all they could think about and obsessed and indeed the prophecies of Saint Paisios are the only thing that you keep hearing about in secular circles and hyper-nationalists and the like. They don't talk about Christ but the antichrist only. And as you say, Saint Paisios agreed and advised against the constant talking of such matters.

Also, every tabloid just puts his name or picture on the cover of a "news"paper that is worth less than trash and people think that the nonsense they say is what the Saint said, which most of the times are made up

On the other hand though, I have to say, everyone has heard that the saint has said that the Russians will take Constantinople from the Turks and then give it to us (not really willingly), and most make fun of that (kinda less now among certain circles though) and I guess when that comes to pass (because I believe it will and in our lifetime) that should be a great lesson to many.

 

[Dorothea]

This sounds like my Greek parish. Years ago they were primarily Greek, but now days it's much like what you've listed here. When it comes time for the "Our Father" prayer it's in about 9 different languages for all the different folks who attend. We have English, Greek, Russian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Italian, Spanish, Arabic, and German in I believe that order usually. I think as time goes on we'll see less and less of the ethnic clubs, and hopefully GOARCH will help to promote this. Really an American Orthodox Church would be ideal, but that probably won't happen in my lifetime.

 

[archer75]

ROCOR has King Harold II of England on its calendar. One theory in ROCOR is that Harold II was an Orthodox king because he ruled about the time of the Schism and the Pope supported William the Conqueror and the French against him and against the current bishop in England.

ROCOR's theory is that King Harold II was a pre-schism saint... but when I showed my sympathy for this idea to other EOs, they tended to denigrate the idea. For one, you could suppose that Harold II's Church in England probably accepted the Filioque and alot of other features by which the RC Church distinguished itself from the EOs. When Harold II's court went into exile in Ukraine in the decades after the Norman Conquest and the Great Schism, their English cities in Ukraine deliberately took bishops from Hungary, probably because it was under the Latin Rite which they were brought up in.

I have a personal interest in "Orthodox England" and the saints of those days and was aware of this veneration (at least on the books) of King Harold by ROCOR.

I don't see it as that well-founded, myself, but ROCOR doesnt need my input. There's more than one site that tries to tease out an answer to the question of "how late" English saints can be considered Orthodox. Those discussions make me feel tense. I sympathize, but at the same time, the whole thing smacks a little of idolizing an imaginary past.

But anyway, there shouldn't be jurisdiction-bashing (or idolizing). I've never even been to a GOARCH parish, but I bet they have good and bad features just like everyone else.

That said, this notion about non-Orthodox spouses communing seems absolutely wacky to me.
I kind of get the idea of mixed marriages, since from the beginning, they were there, in a sense. But communion? I just have no idea how this is justified. The explanation that they have been "admitted" to one sacrament, so why not another, is utterly unintelligibleto me. It seems to mean you can be received into the Church just by getting married.

 

[E.C.]

This sounds like my Greek parish. Years ago they were primarily Greek, but now days it's much like what you've listed here. When it comes time for the "Our Father" prayer it's in about 9 different languages for all the different folks who attend. We have English, Greek, Russian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Italian, Spanish, Arabic, and German in I believe that order usually. I think as time goes on we'll see less and less of the ethnic clubs, and hopefully GOARCH will help to promote this. Really an American Orthodox Church would be ideal, but that probably won't happen in my lifetime.

An American Orthodox Church would be great, but won't happen as long as Constantinople continues to milk North America. Or unless the rest of us start taking a page out of the Moscow Patriarch's book and start acting simply as if the EP isn't there.

At the Orthodox Military Chapel in Okinawa, Japan part of their tradition is to say the Our Father in whatever languages people know. Its the only Orthodox church on the whole island. I think in one Sunday we heard English, Greek, Japanese, Romanian, Spanish, Thai, and Arabic. It was nice.

That said, this notion about non-Orthodox spouses communing seems absolutely wacky to me.
I kind of get the idea of mixed marriages, since from the beginning, they were there, in a sense. But communion? I just have no idea how this is justified. The explanation that they have been "admitted" to one sacrament, so why not another, is utterly unintelligibleto me. It seems to mean you can be received into the Church just by getting married.

I wonder how much of it is because of how strong the Parish Council President and other lay leaders are in the GOARCH parishes. MY ex-girlfriend's father was fired as a priest from the GOARCH because he became more popular than the very insecure you-know-what that the rector was. He always said that what determines the GOARCH priest's career is how happy the parish council president can be. I wouldn't be surprised if with the rise of religiously-mixed marriages in the USA there's some pressure from the GOARCH laity in some areas. Chances are it's those same areas where they don't realize that their non-Orthodox spouses don't have to be Greek to be Orthodox and likely think that allowing their non-Orthodox non-Greek spouse to receive Communion will make them "feel more included". I'd almost put money on it.

 

[archer75]

An American Orthodox Church would be great, but won't happen as long as Constantinople continues to milk North America. Or unless the rest of us start taking a page out of the Moscow Patriarch's book and start acting simply as if the EP isn't there.

At the Orthodox Military Chapel in Okinawa, Japan part of their tradition is to say the Our Father in whatever languages people know. Its the only Orthodox church on the whole island. I think in one Sunday we heard English, Greek, Japanese, Romanian, Spanish, Thai, and Arabic. It was nice.



I wonder how much of it is because of how strong the Parish Council President and other lay leaders are in the GOARCH parishes. MY ex-girlfriend's father was fired as a priest from the GOARCH because he became more popular than the very insecure you-know-what that the rector was. He always said that what determines the GOARCH priest's career is how happy the parish council president can be. I wouldn't be surprised if with the rise of religiously-mixed marriages in the USA there's some pressure from the GOARCH laity in some areas. Chances are it's those same areas where they don't realize that their non-Orthodox spouses don't have to be Greek to be Orthodox and likely think that allowing their non-Orthodox non-Greek spouse to receive Communion will make them "feel more included". I'd almost put money on it.

If that's so, that's not cool. And that's nothing against GOARCH. But that particular thought is not okay anywhere. I've encountered similar stuff in Russian contexts. I find it distressing. I know there are "reasons" for it, though, and that its not a personal failing of the person who holds this idea. That person (who says "This a Russian church! Americans belong in an American church!"), however, is in error.

 

[E.C.]

If that's so, that's not cool. And that's nothing against GOARCH. But that particular thought is not okay anywhere. I've encountered similar stuff in Russian contexts. I find it distressing. I know there are "reasons" for it, though, and that its not a personal failing of the person who holds this idea. That person (who says "This a Russian church! Americans belong in an American church!"), however, is in error.

Well, call me a cynic if you want, but convince me otherwise.

Why would the Old World patriarchs give up their jurisdictions in Africa and not Europe, the Americas, or Asia? It's simple: there's not money in Africa. There's no incentive for them to give up their jurisdictions in North America beyond violating the cannons. The previous GOARCH Archbishops had even said many times that without the parishes in America the EP would not survive.

I believe that the Orthodox Church is for all. Sadly I've encountered many, typically from strong ethnic communities, that seem to think there's an ethnic requirement to being Orthodox. That false line of thinking is a product of years worth of failure to correctly teach the faith. I don't blame the Church too much for it since there was seventy years of Communism to deal with, but the Wall has been down for almost thirty years. We need to fix this mindset.

 

[archer75]

Well, call me a cynic if you want, but convince me otherwise.

Why would the Old World patriarchs give up their jurisdictions in Africa and not Europe, the Americas, or Asia? It's simple: there's not money in Africa. There's no incentive for them to give up their jurisdictions in North America beyond violating the cannons. The previous GOARCH Archbishops had even said many times that without the parishes in America the EP would not survive.

I believe that the Orthodox Church is for all. Sadly I've encountered many, typically from strong ethnic communities, that seem to think there's an ethnic requirement to being Orthodox. That false line of thinking is a product of years worth of failure to correctly teach the faith. I don't blame the Church too much for it since there was seventy years of Communism to deal with, but the Wall has been down for almost thirty years. We need to fix this mindset.

I'm not sure what we're arguing about. Seems to me we're in agreement.

 

[Phronema]

I'm not sure what we're arguing about. Seems to me we're in agreement.

We're Orthodox it's part of the deal. Like doing things in groups of 3s, 9s, 12s, and 40s.

Spoiler

 

[Dorothea]

An American Orthodox Church would be great, but won't happen as long as Constantinople continues to milk North America. Or unless the rest of us start taking a page out of the Moscow Patriarch's book and start acting simply as if the EP isn't there.

At the Orthodox Military Chapel in Okinawa, Japan part of their tradition is to say the Our Father in whatever languages people know. Its the only Orthodox church on the whole island. I think in one Sunday we heard English, Greek, Japanese, Romanian, Spanish, Thai, and Arabic. It was nice.



I wonder how much of it is because of how strong the Parish Council President and other lay leaders are in the GOARCH parishes. MY ex-girlfriend's father was fired as a priest from the GOARCH because he became more popular than the very insecure you-know-what that the rector was. He always said that what determines the GOARCH priest's career is how happy the parish council president can be. I wouldn't be surprised if with the rise of religiously-mixed marriages in the USA there's some pressure from the GOARCH laity in some areas. Chances are it's those same areas where they don't realize that their non-Orthodox spouses don't have to be Greek to be Orthodox and likely think that allowing their non-Orthodox non-Greek spouse to receive Communion will make them "feel more included". I'd almost put money on it.

Some parish councils can go overboard and be quite bossy toward the priests. It's not right, imo. There should be a symbiotic relationship, if you will.

 

[rusmeister]

Some parish councils can go overboard and be quite bossy toward the priests. It's not right, imo. There should be a symbiotic relationship, if you will.

I witnessed it in a Bay Area peninsula church around the time I converted - a "sisterhood" totally bossed around this poor Russian immigrant priest and his family of six kids living in the parish house; money, it seemed, trumped other issues.

 

[Dorothea]

I witnessed it in a Bay Area peninsula church around the time I converted - a "sisterhood" totally bossed around this poor Russian immigrant priest and his family of six kids living in the parish house; money, it seemed, trumped other issues.

 

[walking.away.123]

I visited that church once. When I left my Navy school in Mississippi I couldn't get a car blessing from the priest in Jackson, MS first; so, I had contacted the priest in Birmingham asking if I could stop by. He blessed the car and we had lunch afterwards. I don't remember his name, but at the time their new church was under construction. Nice people.

I've been to that church once on the Feast of Dormition. It was the closest one I could get to at the time.

They also don't encourage missionary work.

That's really not true. They aren't as good at it as a lot of Protestants and some don't take it seriously at all, but there are a lot of leaders in the GOA who are working hard to increase awareness and support for the missions that are going on.

Boston area. I went to the local Antiochian Orthodox Church because their service was all in English.

I've been there too.

Re: St. Issac the Syrian, the Church of the East formally accepted Nestorianism, more specifically the teachings of Theodore of Mopsuestia around the turn of the 5th Century under Catholicos Babai. St. Issac was ordained a bishop by Catholicos Georges in the mid-7th Century. While his theology may be soundly not what we call Nestorian, I don't see any way to argue that he was not in the Church of the East and that that Church was not in communion with the Orthodox Church. And that's not OO, it's the Church of the East or Assyrian Church. Not much of it left. But he's a saint because the Church accepted him as being a saint. No other argument is needed. It's not an argument for communing spouses who are free to become Orthodox, but choose not to. While we live, one is Orthodox or one is not. Communion is not even given to baptized Orthodox who deny the faith, and the Sacrament of Marriage does not contain a confession of faith.

 

[ArmyMatt]

actually, St Isaac appeared to St Passios and said he died in communion with Orthodoxy, not the Nestorians. not only that, but he taught things that a Nestorian would never teach like the mutual exchange of properties.

 

[walking.away.123]

St Isaac appeared to St Passios and said he died in communion with Orthodoxy

What's your source for that?
Edited for pride.

 

[ArmyMatt]

What's your source for that? A lot of things people say were said were never said and even if they were that doesn't mean what was said was accurate. Whatever the case, it's irrelevant. I don't find it necessary to believe St. Isaac either was or was not in communion with Orthodoxy. It's not necessary to argue that the Church of the East was Nestorian, which is the other way the issue is explained. He was a obviously a saint for centuries before St. Paisios and during many centuries in which the Church of the East was known to be heretical. The Church didn't have a problem with it, nor do I.

But once again, there's no connection between this issue in giving communion to the unchrismated.

my source is one of my seminary professors who was a spiritual son of his.

 

[walking.away.123]

my source is one of my seminary professors who was a spiritual son of his.

That's a good source to have, but I stand by my point that it is not and never was relevant to St. Isaac's sainthood.
Which seminary?

 

[ArmyMatt]

That's a good source to have, but I stand by my point that it is not and never was relevant to St. Isaac's sainthood.
Which seminary?

his sainthood was never in question, only whether or not he died within the Orthodox faith.

St Tikhon's.

 

[Dorothea]

actually, St Isaac appeared to St Passios and said he died in communion with Orthodoxy, not the Nestorians. not only that, but he taught things that a Nestorian would never teach like the mutual exchange of properties.

Thank you. I was about to say this. My son read it in one of the books on Saint Paisios' life. And for the record, my favorite saint is Saint Isaac.

 

[Platina]

it's in the big green biography by Hieromonk Isaac.

 

[walking.away.123]

his sainthood was never in question, only whether or not he died within the Orthodox faith.

I should have said it was not relevant to his recognition as a saint, which was being used referenced here as an argument for giving communion to non-Orthodox. It wasn't, centuries before St. Paisios, a consideration when denying communion to OO, RC, or Church of the East Christians. Their theology and state of being separate from the Orthodox Church was the only issue. As it is with non-Orthodox spouses, to bring the thread back around. The argument here is not a question of belief or holiness, but that they are in the church by virtue of the sacrament of marriage.