Head coverings

abacabb3

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I didn't know where there was a better place to start a thread on this, but how about head coverings? Why is the Lord's Supper an ordinance we listen to today but not the covering and non-covering of heads?

I think ignoring the practice complicates not only our view of God (the relationship between the Father and the Son, and the Church to Christ) but also biblical gender relations.
 

NorrinRadd

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I didn't know where there was a better place to start a thread on this, but how about head coverings? Why is the Lord's Supper an ordinance we listen to today but not the covering and non-covering of heads?

I think ignoring the practice complicates not only our view of God (the relationship between the Father and the Son, and the Church to Christ) but also biblical gender relations.

Is it your view that women should also be "silent" in the assembly?

FWIW, here is a PDF that addresses that portion of 1 Cor. 11. (The author is a New Testament scholar who advocates full equality of men and women.)
 
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abacabb3

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Is it your view that women should also be "silent" in the assembly?

Do you think that women should have teaching authority over men, though it is banned in 1 Timothy?

Women can pray, sing and prophesy, but not teach men or interrupt in the middle of prophesy (which is the context of that snippet from Paul in 1 Cor.)

Why is a traditional stance on head coverings anti-women? I like wearing hats, but I'm not allowed to at church.
 
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NorrinRadd

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Do you think that women should have teaching authority over men,

Yes.


though it is banned in 1 Timothy?

I assume you mean 2:11-14. I disagree with your translation, interpretation, and application.


Women can pray, sing and prophesy, but not teach men or interrupt in the middle of prophesy (which is the context of that snippet from Paul in 1 Cor.)

Actually, I think most likely that "snippet" is an uninspired margin gloss.

Next to that, I think it is most likely a mirror-reading that Paul is *refuting*.


Why is a traditional stance on head coverings anti-women? I like wearing hats, but I'm not allowed to at church.

The alleged "traditional" stance is anti-women because it relies on dubious translation and does not take into account the whole of the textual context, and probably misinterprets the cultural context.
 
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abacabb3

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Yes...I assume you mean 2:11-14. I disagree with your translation, interpretation, and application.

Which is fine, but I have given careful consideration to the greek and I respectfully disagree with you.

However, let's say you were proved wrong by a bunch of Greek scholars. Would you change your position to the section being "an uninspired margin gloss."

And if that's the case, how do we know what in the Scripture is a later interpolation and which is not? Can't the whole Scripture be thrown into doubt?

The alleged "traditional" stance is anti-women because it relies on dubious translation and does not take into account the whole of the textual context, and probably misinterprets the cultural context.

In order to be anti-women, you would have to impugn the motivations of those who take the position, which is an ad hominem and not acceptable.

Here is my position laid out on head coverings and I have given thought to the Greek:

The passage is simple enough (1 Cor 11:2-15) and I will discuss it section by section:

Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.

It is important to note that these are not some listless traditions that have only been made clear explicitly in writing hundreds of years later. Paul takes the next few chapters to elaborate exactly what these traditions (the Lord’s Supper for one) are.

But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

This is the purpose statement of the section on head coverings. What’s the big deal here? Hierarchy between husbands and wives reflects a divine hierarchy between Father and Son, just as marriage is a reflection of Christ and the Church in Ephesians 5. So, any understanding of this passage that ignores the idea of submission shows not only a fundamental misunderstanding of marriage, but a warped view of the Godhead in which one Person of the Trinity is in submission to the other.

Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. But every woman who has her head uncovered (akatakaluptO) while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved.

A simple ordinance is set forth. Men should not put “something” on his head, while a woman should do the opposite. While it is shameful for the man to cover his head, it is as shameful for the woman to have her head uncovered. So shameful, she might as well have her beautiful hair cut off.

Also take note of the term for “uncovered” (akatakaluptO). It helps us understand what a head covering is.

For if a woman does not cover (katakaluptetai) her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover (katakaluptesthO) her head.

Obviously akatakaluptO, katakaluptetai and katakaluptesthO are all related words with very close spelling. So, the same thing, the act of covering one’s head, is being referenced.

Further, Paul is speaking rhetorically. He already set for that it is shameful for a woman to be bald in the previous passage. So, when he says “if she doesn’t cover let her cut off her hair, but if doing that is disgraceful…” not so that there are two ordinances (one of cutting hair and one of covering) but rather one. It is BECAUSE we know it to be shameful for women to be bald, it is important for women not to act shamefully and cover their heads with something.

But should we care what’s on our head in church? Is it simply Paul’s personal view of style that is at issue here? Paul gives a very telling reason:

For a man ought not to have his head covered (katakaluptesthai), since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.

Paul goes back to the beginning where reference is made to submission within the Godhead. If a man covers his head, he is denying he is made in the image of God. Likewise, if a woman does not cover her head, she denies that she was made to be in submission to her husband (even though she is equal heir to God’s promises according to 1 Peter 3.)

Then, there is a cryptic reference to a “symbol of authority.” It is not complicated at all if you understand why Paul even has this passage to begin with: the covering symbolizes the fact that she is under her husband’s authority and that she submits to him. Not coincidentally, Christians in other countries that still practice female head covering and in denominations that do (i.e. the Mennonites), they affirm the understanding that wives should submit to their husbands and the husbands should lovingly and sacrificially lead their wives. Also, not coincidentally, in the West where head coverings have disappeared have watched extreme doctrinal degradation and the rise of gender egalitarianism.

Lastly, what’s the deal with “the angels.” R.C. Sproul Jr. wrote, “I don’t know.” I have a good guess: every church has an angel that watches over it, as indicated by Revelation 1:20. So, what Paul is conveying is simple: We should be obedient to the ordinances set forth in the Scripture because God is watching and we are held accountable.

Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered (akatakalupton)? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering (peribolaiou).

Two points can be made here. First, long hair is not a proper “head covering” for a woman. The word in the Greek is different for one and the injunction “if you don’t cover your head, then cut all your hair off” doesn’t make any sense unless Paul is only against medium-length hair.

Second, Paul is making a cultural argument here, appealing to the tastes of the Corinthians (“Does not even nature teach you?”) While some people say that this proves that this whole section applies only to the people of that era, the fact that Paul only later appeals to people’s good sense proves that the main thrust of his argument is not cultural at all. The covering issues between men and women has metaphysical importance, as it reflects the nature of the Father and the Son. Further, as Paul made clear in his reasoning, men’s and women’s order in creation necessitates it.

But if one is inclined to be contentious, we have no other practice, nor have the churches of God.

Now, if what Paul was really saying was, “As long as women submit to men and have some sort of literal, or even non-literal ‘sign’ of submission, that’s fine,” it is quite striking that the Holy Spirit put the words in his mouth stating that the church universally follows the ordinance and we should not contend or alter it in any way. Apparently, GOd likes wasting his words and confusing us with a useless ordinance, or He wants to emphasize through Paul that we shouldn’t dispute the ordinance and just do it.

Now, to modern western readers, we would like to take his words in a non-literal sense: “Paul can’t mean we have to really have to care what is on or not on our heads, right?” However, as Paul clearly lays out, it would be just as offensive to alter the head covering ordinance as it would be to use cookies and grape soda in place of bread and wine in the Lord’s supper. In fact, cookies and grape soda would actually be a more faithful rendition of the ordinance than ignoring head coverings all together. At least those treats share ingredients with bread and wine!

Further, there was zero debate about head coverings until about 60 years ago. In the second century Tertullian noted that half the church used merely head coverings and that the other half, including Corinth, used full-blown burkas. How could the whole church, which in the second century covered dozens of cultural and linguistic groups, have all equally understood that covering the head meant simply the wearing of head coverings for women apart from it being a serious, universally accepted practice? If it was merely a narrow cultural context in Corinth, the practice would have not spread to Armenia, Libya, Italy and other far off places where people didn’t dress the same.

My last gripe: “Cultural context” is the most abused biblical interpretation there is. It has been used to make homosexuality and fornication not a sin, destroy doctrine, and morph church governance into a 20th century egalitarian mold which God does not intend (for he does not love one century’s cultural norms more than the next). Our cultural norms should conform to Scripture, not the other way around.

The honest biblical interpreter should not even think of saying the issue of head coverings is “cultural” when the Greek does not lend itself to that interpretation, and neither does history or Paul’s logic in the passage. Thus, it requires special pleading to deny the traditional view of head coverings and it is time we abandon this practice of picking and choosing which ordinances we like and which are “out of date.” We do all things for the glory of God.
 
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NorrinRadd

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Which is fine, but I have given careful consideration to the greek and I respectfully disagree with you.

Ok.

To be clear, I was referring to 1 Tim. 2:11-14.


However, let's say you were proved wrong by a bunch of Greek scholars. Would you change your position to the section being "an uninspired margin gloss."

To be clear, in that case I was referring to 1 Cor. 14:34-35. If it were not a margin gloss, I believe a decent case can also be made for it being one example of several in the epistle where Paul employs "mirror writing" -- quotes from the letter the Corinthians sent to him, and then in the succeeding verses refutes the idea in the quote.


And if that's the case, how do we know what in the Scripture is a later interpolation and which is not? Can't the whole Scripture be thrown into doubt?

If I were referring to 1 Tim. 2:11-14, I suppose that would be a reasonable concern. There have long been questions at least about the proper *placement* of the verses that appear as 34-35 in most versions of 1 Cor. 14. Various scholars have challenged their authenticity; the ones whose names I can readily call to mind are Gordon Fee and Phillip B. Payne.


In order to be anti-women,

If by "traditional view" one means the view that women are supposed to wear a particular garment to demonstrate that they are under the authority of a male, then that view is by definition "sexist" at the very least, and reasonably understood to be misogynistic.


you would have to impugn the motivations of those who take the position, which is an ad hominem and not acceptable.

No, I am not saying anything about anyone's "motivations." I am characterizing the position itself. If you wish to draw inferences about "motivations," I can't stop you.

Here is my position laid out on head coverings and I have given thought to the Greek:

"This is the purpose statement of the section on head coverings. What’s the big deal here? Hierarchy between husbands and wives reflects a divine hierarchy between Father and Son, just as marriage is a reflection of Christ and the Church in Ephesians 5. So, any understanding of this passage that ignores the idea of submission shows not only a fundamental misunderstanding of marriage, but a warped view of the Godhead in which one Person of the Trinity is in submission to the other."

This impugns the motivations of those who view the members of the Trinity as equals, and so is an ad hominem and unacceptable. ;)

Other than that, I note that you have carefully chosen a translation that supports your view, and have eschewed any comment on the "however, in the Lord" portion that somewhat moderates the rest of what Paul said.

I'll still stick with Dr. Payne's view of the passage, thanks. :)
 
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abacabb3

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If it were not a margin gloss, I believe a decent case can also be made for it being one example of several in the epistle where Paul employs "mirror writing" -- quotes from the letter the Corinthians sent to him, and then in the succeeding verses refutes the idea in the quote.

Let me go out on a limb here and say your interpretation is chameleon-like. You come approaching the Scripture with a preconceived notion (let's say "egalitarianism") and if you run into something you disagree with you will make a list of claims to discount what it clearly says. If one claim can be proven wrong, you move to the next:

-Means something different in the Greek
-Not in the "original manuscript," even though every single manuscript does include the verse in question
-Cultural context makes it inapplicable today
-The verse applies to an event that happened at the time and does not apply to the whole Church for all time
-The Epistle was not really written by Paul, so maybe the verse was snuck in by someone else
-The Epistle is pseudonomynous
-Etc.


As we start moving down this list, eventually the whole Scripture on any matter can be thrown into question.

For example you say:

If by "traditional view" one means the view that women are supposed to wear a particular garment to demonstrate that they are under the authority of a male, then that view is by definition "sexist" at the very least, and reasonably understood to be misogynistic.

How do you explain Eph 5:22-25?

22 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her...


How do you explain that the exact same idea reappears in 1 Cor 11:3, and in 1 Peter 3?

Further, in both 1 Cor 11 and Eph 5, Paul reminds his audience to "imitate God," particularly the way in which the Son is in submission to the Father. Remember, Christ "who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men." (Phil 2:6, 7)

An interpretation that ignores submission from one party to the next, makes the whole point of the passage impossible to understand. There is a dimension in which how we live mirrors the realities of the Godhead. Am I to flush this down the toilet because of 20th and 21st century social norms?

Various scholars have challenged their authenticity; the ones whose names I can readily call to mind are Gordon Fee and Phillip B. Payne....I'll still stick with Dr. Payne's view of the passage, thanks. :)

You can agree with these scholars, just as I can make a much longer list of scholars and doctors of the church for two thousand years, plus have the internal consistency Scripture on my side too. Ultimately, if I work from the position that the Scripture, and all of it, is God-breathed and you and your scholars don't, we have no basis for disagreement. This is because we would have two different authorities. I'd be concerned with the internal consistency of Scripture and you would be concerned with essentially non-scriptural ethics and then cherry picking teachings in the Scripture and Christian tradition that support that view.
 
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Mary of Bethany

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Good point. I'm not necessarily opposed to it, but would it be wrong not to all the time?

Do you mean would it be wrong not to cover all the time?

We Orthodox don't generally see such issues in terms or "right" or "wrong", so I find it hard to answer that. Each woman has to discern for herself. Myself, I cover during worship, and during prayer times at home, but not otherwise, even though I strive (though usually fail) to always be in prayer.

Mary
 
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NorrinRadd

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Let me go out on a limb here and say your interpretation is chameleon-like.

I don't think so, but my approach may well differ from yours.


You come approaching the Scripture with a preconceived notion (let's say "egalitarianism")
Everyone comes to Scripture with preconceptions. If we can't agree on that fact, our views of reality are so different that no meaningful communication is possible.


and if you run into something you disagree with you will make a list of claims to discount what it clearly says.
No. I base my beliefs on Scripture. But taken at face value, there are many contradictions in Scripture. One must then work to resolve those contradictions by examining textual context, authorial context, translation, and cultural background.

I will address the specific tactics you cite below from that perspective, i.e. resolving contradictions.

If one claim can be proven wrong, you move to the next:

-Means something different in the Greek
Sometimes that is the case. One might suspect this upon comparing different translations -- always a good idea -- and observing meaningful differences.


-Not in the "original manuscript," even though every single manuscript does include the verse in question
Normally one would not expect this unless suggested by footnotes or demarcations in the text, or by commentators. And those sources would need to have textual reasons for omitting the verses, not something whimsical such as "That just doesn't sound like something the author would say."


-Cultural context makes it inapplicable today
Not just "today." Mores may have differed between, e.g., Palestine and Rome. If a certain hairstyle or type of apparel was discouraged because it would be considered scandalous in one culture, that doesn't mean the same was true in all cultures.


-The verse applies to an event that happened at the time and does not apply to the whole Church for all time
Similar to the above. At this point it may be appropriate to note that I view the Epistles as ad hoc documents speaking most directly to their immediate recipients. When speaking of broad matters such as the distinctions between the New Covenant and the Obsolete Covenant, I consider their teachings universal. When addressing particular matters of behavior and decorum, I consider they are applying universal New Covenant truths and its fundamental "law" of "love your neighbor as yourself" to specific situations; they may apply differently in other places and times.


-The Epistle was not really written by Paul, so maybe the verse was snuck in by someone else
You've conflated two things.

The Pastoral Epistles are often considered to be Second Century pseudepigraphs. I think they were most likely pseudepigraphs in the sense that they were probably penned by Luke, but since he would have been serving as Paul's amanuensis, they are genuine.

The only potential margin gloss in Paul's works I'm familiar with offhand is the one we're discussing, 1 Cor. 14:34-35.

-The Epistle is pseudonomynous
-Etc.
Pseudonymity doesn't necessarily bother me. 2 Peter is often viewed as pseudonymous, but still canonical.


As we start moving down this list, eventually the whole Scripture on any matter can be thrown into question.

For example you say:
"If by 'traditional view' one means the view that women are supposed to wear a particular garment to demonstrate that they are under the authority of a male, then that view is by definition 'sexist' at the very least, and reasonably understood to be misogynistic."​
How do you explain Eph 5:22-25?
I must interject: How I explain that passage is irrelevant to the basic definition of the words "sexist" and "misogynistic." Any rule that makes a distinction solely on the basis of sex is "sexist." If that rule subordinates one sex or the other, it could reasonably be viewed as either misogynistic or misandric, depending on who comes out on top, so to speak.

As for the passage you cited, I explain it by noting that you began it at the wrong place. V. 22 actually contains no verb, but borrows that of v. 21. That shows that Paul is using submission by wives as a specific example of mutual submission of all believers to each other.

Further, you ended it at the wrong place. The passage is one of several table of house codes. It extends to 6:9. That suggests it applies most directly to a culture that practices slavery. Beyond that, it ends conceptually the way it began: In 5:21, believers are to submit to each other, while in 6:9 masters are to treat their slaves "in the same way" as slaves were just instructed to behave toward masters.


How do you explain that the exact same idea reappears in 1 Cor 11:3,
If the "idea" is hierarchy of authority, I don't believe it does reappear there.


and in 1 Peter 3?
That is part of another house-code table, so it should not be isolated from its context, which begins back in ch. 2. Again it presupposes a culture that accepts slavery. Taken at face value, it suggests a degree of wifely submission that regards her husband as "lord." Those facts alone suggest that the passage may need to be significantly modified to be applied to our culture.

The entire domestic codes passage is set in a larger context of unjust suffering and unjust accusations inflicted by a potentially hostile culture. That suggests it is teaching practical ways to practice Xian relationships that do not invite persecution.

Also, this particular set of domestic codes is unusual in that it addresses the possibility of an unbeliever as husband. Therefore, one must consider that part of the reason for the emphasis on wifely submission is precisely for the purpose of winning over her husband.


Further, in both 1 Cor 11 and Eph 5, Paul reminds his audience to "imitate God," particularly the way in which the Son is in submission to the Father. Remember, Christ "who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men." (Phil 2:6, 7)
FTR, I believe the Son *was* in submission to the Father, but I don't believe He *is* in submission to the Father.


An interpretation that ignores submission from one party to the next, makes the whole point of the passage impossible to understand.
It causes us to understand the passages differently.


There is a dimension in which how we live mirrors the realities of the Godhead. Am I to flush this down the toilet because of 20th and 21st century social norms?
I flushed my "complementarian" views down the toilet because of what I came to see in Scripture, not because of modern western mores. One thing I see in Scripture is mutuality and equality within the Godhead, not unilateral submission. You will of course come to your own conclusions regarding what and why you flush.

(Me, speaking in regard to 1 Cor. 14:34-35) "Various scholars have challenged their authenticity; the ones whose names I can readily call to mind are Gordon Fee and Phillip B. Payne....I'll still stick with Dr. Payne's view of the passage, thanks. :)"
You can agree with these scholars, just as I can make a much longer list of scholars and doctors of the church for two thousand years, plus have the internal consistency Scripture on my side too.
Sure, I have no doubt you can pile up a bunch of scholars. Heck, *I* can find a bunch who disagree with Fee and Payne in regard to those two verses, while still holding to the larger view of full equality of women and men.

However, I flatly reject the notion that one can take those verses at anything approaching face value and still retain anything resembling "internal consistency" of Scripture.


Ultimately, if I work from the position that the Scripture, and all of it, is God-breathed and you and your scholars don't, we have no basis for disagreement. This is because we would have two different authorities. I'd be concerned with the internal consistency of Scripture and you would be concerned with essentially non-scriptural ethics and then cherry picking teachings in the Scripture and Christian tradition that support that view.
I and the scholars I favor respect the inspiration and authority of Scripture. Most would consider ourselves "inerrantists," though I believe Ben Witherington and David Instone-Brewer are uncomfortable with that term. But as I said, I'm sure our hermeneutical principles differ from yours.
 
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abacabb3

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Everyone comes to Scripture with preconceptions.

Let me elaborate. I think you approach the Scripture with an ethical error, which at its root is epistemological and calls into question the nature of revelation: does God always do what is right because He is the author of justice or does God have to do what is right, because what is just is something that God would have to abide by?

Depending how you answer the question radically affects how you must interpret Scripture.

You may guess that I take the former interpretation. And, because God is always righteous in my eyes, I am not bothered by commands in the Scripture that people find archaic or unjust. To me, because revelation is perfect and always right, if our own views of right and wrong don;'t mesh with the Scripture, I don't reinterpret the Scripture. Rather, I reinterpret my views of right and wrong.

This is something I have given careful consideration. I used to be a biblical liberal theologically until I realized that the Scripture has no claim to truth apart from a literal, as is interpretation. I am very well-versed in the liberal school's arguments and their own lack of validity is what made me re-evaluate their positions.

But taken at face value, there are many contradictions in Scripture.
Apart from a few numbers between Kings and Chronicles and Jesus' genealogy (which can be explained by levirate marriage) I don't believe this is the case. In fact, if the Scripture is chock full of contradictions and so we have to decide which set of doctrines we are to believe instead of another set, then it is a horrible source of authority.

One must then work to resolve those contradictions by examining textual context, authorial context, translation, and cultural background.
Yes, but a lot of presumed ones are simply not there.

Sometimes that is the case. One might suspect this upon comparing different translations -- always a good idea -- and observing meaningful differences.

But here in 1 Cor 11, it's not an issue. In fact, the Greek lends itself to an interpretation that the head covering is a literal head covering.

Normally one would not expect this unless suggested by footnotes or demarcations in the text, or by commentators. And those sources would need to have textual reasons for omitting the verses, not something whimsical such as "That just doesn't sound like something the author would say."

However, in the case you are citing here, it is whimsical. The verses in question are in every single ancient manuscript. They are not in margins and there is no indication that they have been added, aside from the whimsical and arbitrary interpretation of 20th century scholars. So, I do not accept this argument.

Not just "today." Mores may have differed between, e.g., Palestine and Rome. If a certain hairstyle or type of apparel was discouraged because it would be considered scandalous in one culture, that doesn't mean the same was true in all cultures.

Ah, the "cultural/historical context" argument. Having read extensively ancient works, I have an appreciation of not making overarching assumptions that everyone in Corinth, Rome, Thessalonica, Antioch, Jerusalem or anywhere else for that matter wore their hair a certain way, or acted a certain way over a period of centuries. The evidence is just far too scanty, and if you want to go by the evidence, it actually shows that the hair covering injunction was church-wide over several very different cultures.

In fact, second-century Corinthians wore burkas according to Tertullian, so no, the issue wasn't merely long-flowing hair in the vicinity of Corinth and Paul's admonition does not have anything to do with a narrow historical context.

At this point it may be appropriate to note that I view the Epistles as ad hoc documents speaking most directly to their immediate recipients.
THe problem with this approach is that if they are truly the words of God, why would GOd waste his time with preserving His word, but his word is just a bunch of random stuff that random guys said?

The traditional approach, even decades after the closing of the Canon, is that the EPistles contain information that is binding for all time. Obviously, this is the more useful approach to understanding Scripture, because apart from this understanding there is no point to even listening to it. The religion simply changes with the times and has no claim as eternal, immutable truth.

The Pastoral Epistles are often considered to be Second Century pseudepigraphs. I think they were most likely pseudepigraphs in the sense that they were probably penned by Luke, but since he would have been serving as Paul's amanuensis, they are genuine.

The only potential margin gloss in Paul's works I'm familiar with offhand is the one we're discussing, 1 Cor. 14:34-35.

Pseudonymity doesn't necessarily bother me. 2 Peter is often viewed as pseudonymous, but still canonical.

The one thing this, and everything else you defended has in common is that it is often used to undercut what the Scripture literally says for the sake of ignoring what it says. Why can't I ignore "love your neighbor" or presume someone just added in the margins Christ came in the flesh. This approach throws the whole Scripture into doubt.

FTR, I believe the Son *was* in submission to the Father, but I don't believe He *is* in submission to the Father.

Being that Christ lives eternally to make intercession on our behalf, that means he always serves the Father, so His submission is eternal.
 
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NorrinRadd

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Let me elaborate. I think you approach the Scripture with an ethical error, which at its root is epistemological and calls into question the nature of revelation: does God always do what is right because He is the author of justice or does God have to do what is right, because what is just is something that God would have to abide by?

Depending how you answer the question radically affects how you must interpret Scripture.

It would not surprise me to find we have incompatibly different epistemologies.
In regard to the specific matter of God's righteousness -- I believe that God is always righteous, and that even when Scripture records Him doing such things as committing or commanding genocide, killing Uzzah, killing David's son, etc., He remains righteous.

However, I do not believe He has the right to issue contradictory commands, at least without giving scrupulously detailed explanation and justification. Once He has not only issued but repeatedly reiterated the command to "Love one another," "Love your neighbor as yourself," "Treat others as you wish others to treat you," He has surrendered the right to instruct those to whom He gave those commands to make class distinctions among themselves, for example.


You may guess that I take the former interpretation. And, because God is always righteous in my eyes, I am not bothered by commands in the Scripture that people find archaic or unjust. To me, because revelation is perfect and always right, if our own views of right and wrong don;'t mesh with the Scripture, I don't reinterpret the Scripture. Rather, I reinterpret my views of right and wrong.

I also believe God is always righteous and just. And I believe He has revealed His definitions of righteous and just in Scripture. So if I see instructions in Scripture that are contrary to what He revealed about righteousness and justice, I interpret and apply those instructions in such a way that they are no longer contrary.

This is something I have given careful consideration.
Good. So have I.

I used to be a biblical liberal theologically...
Perhaps you could explain what you mean by this term. This is the Wikipedia definition. On a scale of 0 to 100, I would say that article fits me at about a level of 5.

To the extent that the "Five Fundamentals" characterize Fundamentalist Xianity, I am much closer to being a Fundamentalist than a liberal, though I do find the concept of inerrancy a bit overblown, given the absence of original mss. and the vagaries of translation and transmission.

until I realized that the Scripture has no claim to truth apart from a literal, as is interpretation. I am very well-versed in the liberal school's arguments and their own lack of validity is what made me re-evaluate their positions.

A consistent "literal, as is" interpretation is impossible.

Apart from a few numbers between Kings and Chronicles and Jesus' genealogy (which can be explained by levirate marriage) I don't believe this is the case. In fact, if the Scripture is chock full of contradictions and so we have to decide which set of doctrines we are to believe instead of another set, then it is a horrible source of authority.

I stand by what I said -- ESPECIALLY if one attempts to employ a "literal, as is" hermeneutic.

Yes, but a lot of presumed ones are simply not there.

Honestly, this seems a ridiculous assertion. Certainly most of them fade if one proceeds "by examining textual context, authorial context, translation, and cultural background," as I said. But I honestly don't see how one can avoid fatally crashing into them when trying to employ a "literal, as-is" hermeneutic.

But here in 1 Cor 11, it's not an issue. In fact, the Greek lends itself to an interpretation that the head covering is a literal head covering.

Several of my sources agree, though still not concluding that such are still relevant today.

However, Welty and Payne disagree. (Note that the Payne link leads to a PDF.)

However, in the case you are citing here, it is whimsical. The verses in question are in every single ancient manuscript. They are not in margins and there is no indication that they have been added, aside from the whimsical and arbitrary interpretation of 20th century scholars. So, I do not accept this argument.

As is clear by reviewing our exchange of posts, I was referring to 1 Cor. 14:34-35 being inauthentic, not to anything in 1 Cor. 11. Payne makes the point in his book and at various places on his site.

Ah, the "cultural/historical context" argument. Having read extensively ancient works, I have an appreciation of not making overarching assumptions that everyone in Corinth, Rome, Thessalonica, Antioch, Jerusalem or anywhere else for that matter wore their hair a certain way, or acted a certain way over a period of centuries. The evidence is just far too scanty, and if you want to go by the evidence, it actually shows that the hair covering injunction was church-wide over several very different cultures.

In fact, second-century Corinthians wore burkas according to Tertullian, so no, the issue wasn't merely long-flowing hair in the vicinity of Corinth and Paul's admonition does not have anything to do with a narrow historical context.

As I said, several of my sources agree with you, while some do not. None agree with your conclusion that the "covering" practice should continue today.

THe problem with this approach is that if they are truly the words of God, why would GOd waste his time with preserving His word, but his word is just a bunch of random stuff that random guys said?

That is not what I said. This is what I said:

"I view the Epistles as ad hoc documents speaking most directly to their immediate recipients."
If our (yours and mine) basic understanding of the meaning of words is so drastically different, there is little hope for communication.

The traditional approach, even decades after the closing of the Canon, is that the EPistles contain information that is binding for all time. Obviously, this is the more useful approach to understanding Scripture, because apart from this understanding there is no point to even listening to it. The religion simply changes with the times and has no claim as eternal, immutable truth.

I believe they contain information that is useful for all times and places. I reserve the word "binding" for things that are consistently presented as necessary commandments -- i.e. faith in Jesus, and love for others.

In general, I believe it is silly for one to recognize that it is necessary to translate the language of Scripture, but to not recognize that it may also be necessary to translate cultural matters.

The one thing this, and everything else you defended has in common is that it is often used to undercut what the Scripture literally says for the sake of ignoring what it says. Why can't I ignore "love your neighbor" or presume someone just added in the margins Christ came in the flesh. This approach throws the whole Scripture into doubt.

You said that in response to this:

"The Pastoral Epistles are often considered to be Second Century pseudepigraphs. I think they were most likely pseudepigraphs in the sense that they were probably penned by Luke, but since he would have been serving as Paul's amanuensis, they are genuine.

The only potential margin gloss in Paul's works I'm familiar with offhand is the one we're discussing, 1 Cor. 14:34-35.

Pseudonymity doesn't necessarily bother me. 2 Peter is often viewed as pseudonymous, but still canonical."
Again, I have no idea how what I said led to what you said. Our understanding of words, and possibly of reality itself, is so different that we may not be able to really communicate.

Being that Christ lives eternally to make intercession on our behalf, that means he always serves the Father, so His submission is eternal.

And again, I see no logical reason why His being intermediary and Intercessor necessitates His being subordinate or in a position of servitude. Our basic understandings of words and logic differ.
 
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abacabb3

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I, for one, am all in favor of women wearing head-coverings in church. So is my wife. She doesn't do it because it isn't part of our religious culture as Lutherans, but we greatly respect those Orthodox who do and she insists that when she becomes an old lady she will regardless of what church body we're a part of.

Does she do so presently?
 
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abacabb3

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It would not surprise me to find we have incompatibly different epistemologies.
In regard to the specific matter of God's righteousness -- I believe that God is always righteous, and that even when Scripture records Him doing such things as committing or commanding genocide, killing Uzzah, killing David's son, etc., He remains righteous.

Then we agree so far.

However, I do not believe He has the right to issue contradictory commands, at least without giving scrupulously detailed explanation and justification.

Essentially, I agree. The Scripture must be interpreted with a consistent hermeneutic.

Once He has not only issued but repeatedly reiterated the command to "Love one another," "Love your neighbor as yourself," "Treat others as you wish others to treat you," He has surrendered the right to instruct those to whom He gave those commands to make class distinctions among themselves, for example.

Well, this is something you're imposing. I can love my employer even though He is put above me, or love my children even though they are put below me, or consider us all equal heirs to the grace of God by virtue of our faith in Christ.

I think your interpretation here imposes upon the Scripture and is in actuality illogical. Class distinctions can exist while there is love. Christ is in submission to the Father and yet the Father loves the Son and the Son loves the Father,

So if I see instructions in Scripture that are contrary to what He revealed about righteousness and justice, I interpret and apply those instructions in such a way that they are no longer contrary.

Well, this is fine as long as the hermeneutic is consistent and that the given interpretation does not force any Scripture to be wrong or contradict the other.

Perhaps you could explain what you mean by this term.
I'm ex ELCA, didn't believe in the physical resurrection, believed homosexuality wasn't a sin...very liberal.

...I do find the concept of inerrancy a bit overblown, given the absence of original mss. and the vagaries of translation and transmission.

Apart from the belief that the Scripture, as originally dictated, is inerrant than there is no point in having a conversation, because we can just pick and choose what we think is inerrant and what is in error, and religion merely becomes an invention in our own minds.

A consistent "literal, as is" interpretation is impossible.

How so?

I stand by what I said -- ESPECIALLY if one attempts to employ a "literal, as is" hermeneutic.

Of course you do, because you essentially pick and choose what really is Scripture and what isn't. This is the problem of liberal Christianity. There is no consistency at all in the application of hermeneutics. Everyone becomes to decider of what is Canon and what isn't.

Honestly, this seems a ridiculous assertion. Certainly most of them fade if one proceeds "by examining textual context, authorial context, translation, and cultural background," as I said. But I honestly don't see how one can avoid fatally crashing into them when trying to employ a "literal, as-is" hermeneutic.

Whoa, you just missed my whole point. I am not saying that context isn't important. However, those that regularly employ the "context" argument to say the Bible isn't saying what it clearly says make a practice of using incorrect Greek translations, incorrect history, and inconsistent hermeneutics (taking metaphorical things metaphorically, taking some literal things literally, taking other literal things metaphorically, taking other literal things as something completely different, etc.)

So with head coverings you get arguments from the Greek that are just wrong and historical arguments that are either wrong or way overly presumptuous based upon the evidence available. If anything the history which we actually have shows that Greek women sometimes covered their hair and sometimes did not and it was not scandalous either way. But this hsitory isn't really important, because Paul makes an argument appealing to creation, so his rationale isn't tied to "cultural context" because he offers a specific rationale that precedes culture itself.

Several of my sources agree, though still not concluding that such are still relevant today.

Again, without invoking their actual arguments, I don't need to respond to "a bunch people agree." I have 1900 years of uniform Christian thought on the matter, but even that does not prove anything. We must appeal to the Scripture and when helpful in unveiling what the Scripture is talking about, tradition and history.

As is clear by reviewing our exchange of posts, I was referring to 1 Cor. 14:34-35 being inauthentic, not to anything in 1 Cor. 11. Payne makes the point in his book and at various places on his site.

Yes, but you have noe vidence for 1 COr 14:34-45 being inauthentic. There is nothing that indicates so in the manuscript tradition and it applies to the context (people interrupting each other in the middle of giving prophecies.) SO, you're grasping at straws here. I can just make up that all sorts of stuff wasn't originally or should have been in the Bible, but with no evidence there is no reason to take me seriously.

As I said, several of my sources agree with you, while some do not. None agree with your conclusion that the "covering" practice should continue today.

Again, argumentum ad populum is not a rationale. I have a lot more great thinkers in my camp, even into the present such as RC Sproul. I have provided my reasoning, you have failed to provide a consistent way of reading 1 Cor 11.

"I view the Epistles as ad hoc documents speaking most directly to their immediate recipients."

Good point. How do we know that the Lord's SUpper is not ad hoc? Paul starts verse 2 praising the audience for "holding firm" to "traditions." The Lord's Supper is a tradition that we continue today. Why? We understand that it is praiseworthy to hold to the tradition. Then, one one consistent hermenutical grounds to do we not apply this to head coverings, which is in the same chapter, which is actually where the discussion of "holding firm" to the "traditions" conversation begins, which is made clear to be the practice of every single Christian church of the Apostolic Age, which we know continued passed the Apostolic Age for almost 2,000 years. These are very convincing arguments and cannot simply be ignored as after thoughts on an ad hoc document, unless the Lord's Supper is an afterthought too that every single church just so happened to practice for almost 2,000 years too.

I believe they contain information that is useful for all times and places. I reserve the word "binding" for things that are consistently presented as necessary commandments -- i.e. faith in Jesus, and love for others.
There are non-faith topics that are binding on Christians.We know we are supposed to do the Lord's Supper. Not doing it is not a matter of salvation, but it is an inconsistent reading of the Scripture which can affect more important matters.

In general, I believe it is silly for one to recognize that it is necessary to translate the language of Scripture, but to not recognize that it may also be necessary to translate cultural matters.

Yes, but Paul isn't appealing to culture and if we were to look at the history anyway, it doesn't really help the anti-head covering faction anyhow.


Again, I have no idea how what I said led to what you said. Our understanding of words, and possibly of reality itself, is so different that we may not be able to really communicate.

The issue is simple. You believe in margin glosses and such and use these as justification of not believing stuff. If I want to deny the bodily resurrection of Christ, why can't I call that a margin gloss?

It's an intellectually cowardly argument, especially without any manuscript evidence to back it.


And again, I see no logical reason why His being intermediary and Intercessor necessitates His being subordinate or in a position of servitude. Our basic understandings of words and logic differ.

More importantly, your desire to obedient to God differs with mine. God want's my marriage to be a picture of Christ and the Church. He wants the way I submit to my employer, parents, or government to reflect the submission of Christ to the Father. I desire to take part in divine realities. You simply just don't care about them, because they contradict your unbiblical ethics.
 
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