"He who practices righteousness is righteous" (1 John 3:7)

[Guojing]

If Noah had not obeyed, then it would have been a false faith, which is no genuine faith at all.

Which is the same as you saying only faith with obedience is genuine faith.

That is what you are saying correct?

 

[John Mullally]

They were "cut to the heart," the Holy Spirit having already regenerated and convicted them. You can't get around the necessary process. First regeneration, then works. Therefore, repentance and baptism are necessary expressions of that heart that was already transformed.

Enough of the Eisegesis/Exegesis fifty dollar words - please argue from scripture instead of arrogance. No scripture states that Holy Spirit regeneration precedes repentance. Peter in Acts 2:38-39 implores the crowd to act in "repentance and baptism" for the "remission of sins and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit" - which arguably includes regeneration and salvation. If those convicted by the Holy Spirit were already regenerated before repentance, then it would be deceptive for Peter to say that they must repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Recognition of sin is not enough for salvation - witness Judas.

 

[Paulomycin]

I already stated that it is necessary but not sufficient.

It is a necessary effect.

Not a necessary cause.

 

[Guojing]

It is a necessary effect.

Not a necessary cause.

Interesting distinction you are making here, but either way, you are still saying that without works, one's faith cannot be genuine.

Isn't that the same as saying without works, faith will not be able to save you?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Calvinism agrees with #2 on account of the wider Doctrine of Total Depravity, along with all the verses that support it. You cannot deny this without making a complete contradictory trainwreck of scripture.

#1 and #2 are tied together in that those who perish are perishing because they received not the love of the love of the truth. It does not say that they are perishing because God did not elect them to salvation. They're not receiving the love of the truth would not really be an issue if God made it impossible for them to receive the love of the truth. This is why Calvinism is a trainwrech when reading Scripture.

Calvinism can agree with #3 if (a.) the verse is stated from man's non-omniscient POV, and (b.) God is not rolling dice out of control. <-- God does not throw dice. God is always in-control.

That's a bit of a stretch. Nowhere does Paul suggest that he is referring from his earthly perspective. That they might be saved shows that they did have a chance at salvation pure and simple. You cannot escape such a truth. This in my view is just not being honest with what the text plainly says. IMO - It just seems like you are seeking to change it because you don't like what it says.

 

[Paulomycin]

Enough of the Eisegesis/Exegesis fifty dollar words

lol. There are only two interpretations. Learn it, live it, love it.

- please argue from scripture instead of arrogance. No scripture states that Holy Spirit regeneration precedes repentance.

Wrong. John 3:8. Nowhere in John 3 does it ever say, "that whosoever wills himself to believe in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." <-- Note the difference. That's an eisegetical, rather than exegetical interpretation.

The key phrase in Paul's Letter to the Ephesians is this: '...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have you been saved)' (Eph. 2:5). Here Paul locates the time when regeneration occurs. It takes place 'when we were dead.' Grace is un-merited by definition.

Another passages in the Bible clearly teaches that regeneration precedes faith see: 1 John 5:1 - "everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God", John 1:13, Rom 9:16 You can't control your own birth.

John 6:63, 65 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life... Therefore have I told you that no man can come to me, unless it be given to him by my Father." "Unless" is the necessary conditional. You can't get around it without contradicting dozens of other passages of scripture.

Peter in Acts 2:38-39 implores the crowd to act in "repentance and baptism" for the "remission of sins and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit" - which arguably includes regeneration and salvation.

You're arguing that the meaning of "for" absolutely only and always means "to cause." In this case, it is not a preposition, but rather a conjunction that means "because of," or "since." Any other interpretation is forcing salvation by works.

If those convicted by the Holy Spirit were already regenerated before repentance, then it would be deceptive for Peter to say that they must repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, but only because you're forcing your own confirmation bias. All you're doing is saying, "If those convicted by the Holy Spirit were already regenerated before repentance, then it would be deceptive for Peter to say what I've already pre-judged as fact.

Recognition of sin is not enough for salvation - witness Judas.

"Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled." - John 17:12. Judas was predestined to unrepentance and had no free will in the matter.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is a necessary effect.

Not a necessary cause.

A “belief” necessitates a “work of that belief” if one is serious about that belief.
For example: If Rick was serious in his belief in being a fire fighter, he would do the work of a fire fighter. The same is true with a Christian's faith in Jesus Christ. If a person truly has “faith” in Jesus, they will in time do the “work of faith” that Paul talks about in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. Why? Because the faith and the work of faith are connected. They are two sides of the same coin. For this is why faith without works is dead (James 2:17). This is why we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

In addition, Romans 10:17 says faith comes by hearing the Word of God. The Word of God is the Bible. So we have to hear (obey) the Bible because the Bible is how we get faith. The Bible is whereby we base all matters of faith and practice. The Bible is the faith. The Bible is profitable for righteous instruction (2 Timothy 3:16) so that the man of God may be perfect unto all good works (2 Timothy 3:17). This again is a part of the faith. A belief in Jesus for salvation is not the only aspect of the faith. The journey of faith continues with the work of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, 2 Thessalonians 1:11). Just read Hebrews 11. We learn from the heroes of faith in how their faith had led to faithful actions (i.e. the work of faith). This faith is what accesses the saving grace of God. Read 1 John 1:7. For it talks about how if we walk in the light (faith in action) the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin (Note: the cleansing blood of Jesus is dealing with the topic of salvation).

 

[Paulomycin]

Interesting distinction you are making here, but either way, you are still saying that without works, one's faith cannot be genuine.

Isn't that the same as saying without works, faith will not be able to save you?

No. Because it's judged retroactively. There's a huge difference between "front-loading" works to precede salvation, vs. "back-loading" as the proof of salvation.

Front-loading = Salvation by works, which contradicts Paul.

Back-loading = No contradictions.

 

[setst777]

Jesus didn’t say that faith leads to regeneration.

You can say that, but it doesn't make it true.

The Scriptures tell us differently about what Lord Jesus said.

By faith, we pass from spiritual death to life

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

By faith, demonstrated by following Him, we are turned from darkness to light.

John 8:12 (WEB) 12 Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1]. He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.

John 12:46 (WEB)
46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in the darkness

By faith, we are Spiritually made alive when the Spirit indwells us by faith:

John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Romans 8:9-10 (WEB)
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. 10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

By faith, confessing our sins, we are washed, cleansed, from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9 (WEB) 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Acts 22:16 (WEB) 16 Now why do you wait? Arise, be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

Blessings

 

[Paulomycin]

A “belief” necessitates a “work of that belief” if one is serious about that belief.

You're shoehorning works into belief. Belief isn't a work either. Belief and faith (trust) is 100% complete and absolute dependence on God + nothing.

Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

Thus, it's accounted as righteousness, while it's not a work of righteousness in and of itself.

For example: If Rick was serious in his belief in being a fire fighter, he would do the work of a fire fighter.

Then Rick has merited (earned) the status of firefighter. You can't weasel out of this.

The same is true with a Christian's faith in Jesus Christ. If a person truly has “faith” in Jesus, they will in time do the “work of faith” that Paul talks about in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. Why? Because the faith and the work of faith are connected. They are two sides of the same coin. For this is why faith without works is dead (James 2:17). This is why we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

But the works are the result of true faith. Nowhere does it say they are the synergistic cause of salvation.

*reading further*

Time out: Define "faith" in one sentence.

 

[Guojing]

No. Because it's judged retroactively. There's a huge difference between "front-loading" works to precede salvation, vs. "back-loading" as the proof of salvation.

Front-loading = Salvation by works, which contradicts Paul.

Back-loading = No contradictions.

Oh, so you are back-loading works into salvation.

No wonder, thanks for clarifying your doctrine.

You might find this discussion thread on another forum interesting

Back-loading Works into the Gospel:

 

[Paulomycin]

#1 and #2 are tied together in that those who perish are perishing because they received not the love of the love of the truth.

If they willed themselves to "receive not," then it turns on the same hinge of works righteousness. The truth is that those who "receive not" fail to receive it because they were born dead in trespasses and sin (Ephesians 2:1, Ephesians 2:5, and Colossians 2:13) and it was not granted by the Father (John 6:65). We'll just sit back and watch as you blatantly ignore those verses too, because you obviously hate them.

That's a bit of a stretch. Nowhere does Paul suggest that he is referring from his earthly perspective.

Where does it say that Paul is referring from an exclusively Divine perspective?

That they might be saved shows that they did have a chance at salvation pure and simple.

Great. Then God is clearly not in control. You made your bed.

 

[Paulomycin]

Oh, so you are back-loading works into salvation.

No wonder, thanks for clarifying your doctrine.

You might find this discussion thread on another forum interesting

Back-loading Works into the Gospel:

Problem?

 

[Guojing]

Problem?

Not a problem for me, you are free to hold whatever doctrine you want to hold for yourself.

 

[Paulomycin]

Not a problem for me, you are free to hold whatever doctrine you want to hold for yourself.

Then I don't understand why you referred me to a twelve page thread in another internet forum somewhere else entirely.

 

[Guojing]

Then I don't understand why you referred me to a twelve page thread in another internet forum somewhere else entirely.

Because that thread is about front loading vs back loading of works into salvation.

That was when I learned for the first time what back loading works actually meant.

But of course, if you are not keen, you are free to ignore it. Other readers in this forum might think otherwise.

 

[setst777]

You are misreading this. God told them to get new hearts. Later, in chapter 36, He says He will give them new hearts because they can’t do it themselves. So I’ve shown that you can’t please God in the flesh. You keep putting forth things that people can do that please God, but they are done in the flesh. It just doesn’t work that way.

Ezekiel 11 makes clear that getting the new heart and new Spirit is God's work.

Ezekiel 11:18-21 (WEB)
18 “‘They will come there, and they will take away all its detestable things and all its abominations from there (repentance). 19 I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh; 20 that they may walk in my statutes, and keep my ordinances, and do them. They will be my people, and I will be their God. 21 But as for them whose heart walks after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will bring their way on their own heads, (those who do not repent)’ says the Lord Yahweh.”

Ezekiel 11 makes clear that God leaves the choice to repent and so receive a new heart and Spirit, or to not repent, up to each individual.

Chapter 36 does not discuss the means by which God gives the new heart and new Spirit, but Ezekiel 18 does show us how that takes place, and so does the New Testament.

By faith, we pass from spiritual death to life

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

By faith, demonstrated by following Him, we are turned from darkness to light

John 8:12 (WEB) 12 Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1]. He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.

John 12:46 (WEB)
46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in the darkness

By faith, we are made alive when the Spirit indwells us by faith:

John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Spirit must be IN YOU to be given Spiritual life - only by faith (John 7:38-39)

Romans 8:9-10 (WEB)
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. 10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

That is the regeneration of the Spirit - the Spirit being poured out upon believers (Titus 3:4-6) to make them alive just as in the UPPER ROOM - and that promise of the Spirit is for all who would repent (Acts 2:38).

You have to learn to read the context of Scripture to find out how this all happens, because one verse or passage will not likely explain everything, so you have to compare all related Scripture on that teaching.

NOTE: The regeneration by the Spirit is a New Testament promise after Christ Jesus appeared (Titus 3:3-6). All those who believed in the Old Testament did so before Christ appeared - before regeneration of the New Covenant.

Blessings

 

[Paulomycin]

That was when I learned for the first time what back loading works actually meant.

Then maybe you can cut through the 12 pages of extras and explain why it's bad.

 

[Guojing]

Then maybe you can cut through the 12 pages of extras and explain why it's bad.

Back loading works into salvation is a very common doctrine held by people who want to reconcile Paul with James, as I already stated earlier in this thread here "He who practices righteousness is righteous" (1 John 3:7)

For me, I prefer the clarity of Romans 4:5 and not try to sneak works into salvation thru the backdoor.

 

[Paulomycin]

Back loading works into salvation is a very common doctrine held by people who want to reconcile Paul with James, as I already stated earlier in this thread here "He who practices righteousness is righteous" (1 John 3:7)

For me, I prefer the clarity of Romans 4:5 and not try to sneak works into salvation thru the backdoor.

I wasn't referring to any formal doctrine known as "front-loading" and "back-loading." I was just trying to find a descriptive distinction. I honestly didn't know someone had actually built a theology based on those words.

Again, works necessarily follow true salvation. Works are not the cause of it.