He who isn't a member of the Catholic Church, unless not knowing it, is against it

[Jared R]

LaSorcia, I wholeheartedly believes that everyone belongs. I pray God gives many the desire to belong, because the doors are always open.

 

[seekingsolace]

To me, those showing the love of Christ here shine brightly against the gloom of others. If I had seen this more each day, a lot of issues would be easier to reconcile. For now, I'll be content in knowing there are some open to the Gospel. For I am certain Christ holds open the door, and those against Him may find themselves locked out. I love you all the same: each one of you is my brother and sister in Christ, no institution will prevent this. In my mind and prayers you are not divided, and in heaven I am sure, we will be as one.

If my conscience holds uncertainty, then I am acting in little faith. Yet if I act in faith, the purity and love of God preserves me.

 

[Rhamiel]

Everyone who believes in Jesus and carries out his words are all part of 'HIS' Church!

yes, well I agree with this
those who believe in Jesus and carry out His words are part of His Church
Those who carry out His words are part of the Church

what are the words of Jesus?
John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

the work of schismatics cause division

Hebrews 13:17
Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.

by rejecting rightly ordered authority they have rejected the very teachings of the Bible

The 'Church' of Jesus is us! It is the people. It is not made of stone. It is not a building

you are right
The Church is not a building made of stone
it is also not a duck
the Church is not a ham sandwich

I see NO ONE in this thread who said that the Church was a building
and I certainly do not hold such an absurd view

the Church is a community
we can read about it in the Bible, specifically Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles help us to better understand the characteristics of the Church

For example, when the early Church had an issue, representatives of the local churches met in a council in Jerusalem
they talked about the issue
and then the rulings of the council were followed
the Church is one community, the leaders were the Apostles, and they passed down their authority to the Bishops
it is one thing
do not be fooled by counterfeit groups that have been crafted by the hands of sinful men

you keep saying that you do not think that Jesus would say this or He would say this
go to the Bible, do not be swayed by your own imagination

 

[Goatee]

John 3:16New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.

John 5:24New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
24 Very truly, I tell you, anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and does not come under judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Acts 16:31Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Romans 10:9-10 ESV / 49 helpful votes
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

I could go on and on and on!!!

We are all brothers and Sisters in Christ!!

 

[Korah]

I'm not seeing any dissension here. Am I dreaming? I've been having very realistic dreams lately, maybe this is another one.

 

[Goatee]

I'm not seeing any dissension here. Am I dreaming? I've been having very realistic dreams lately, maybe this is another one.

Dont understand?

 

[Korah]

I mean, Rhamiel, even Jared seem open and loving. Am I in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco in 1969 wearing flowers in my hair while you strum your guitar and they sing "Kumbaya"?

 

[Rhamiel]

@Korah thank you for your kind words
even though we do not agree all points of theology, I think it is important that we advance our conversations in a spirit of honesty, mutual respect, and love

 

[Marius27]

In an age of false ecumenism, it's true compassion and mercy to warn people that their non-Catholic sects do not offer the salvation of Jesus Christ. His blood flows from His body.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Sorry, absolutely nothing in that statement about the Vatican or Catholic Church.

 

[thecolorsblend]

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
Mark 16:16

So Baptism is necessary for salvation.

Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. The two went down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit (for as yet the Spirit had not come upon any of them; they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus). Then Peter and John laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8:14-17

So confirmation is necessary too.

"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Matthew 16:19

and...

"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
John 20:23

So Confession is necessary for salvation.

"Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day."
John 6:54

So the Eucharist is necessary for salvation.

Generally...

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure God’s wrath."
John 3:36

You can believe in the Son. Or you can do the opposite, which Sacred Scripture considers to not be unbelief but rather disobedience.

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:24

Not sure if justification by faith alone is something the MJ's subscribe to but there it is anyway. My point is there's a lot more to it than John 3:16.

 

[concretecamper]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Sorry, absolutely nothing in that statement about the Vatican or Catholic Church.

Demons believe in Him. So evidently, belief alone is not sufficient.

 

[concretecamper]

The CCC does not state anywhere that non-Catholics are saved. The CCC states they "may" be saved.

 

[Wryetui]

What about us?

 

[profoundly sorry]

I think that we have seen through joint dialogue over the past 3 Papacies, that the condemning nature of the past is no longer 100% relevant. At the time, it was completely relevant, however today the Catholic Church recognizes unity through diversity.

Unity is far removed from personal salvation. Reconcile John 6 with any other faiths belief than the authority of Peter and his succession is not possible. For no man whom has not had hands laid upon him has no "in Christi" authority to consecrate, bind or loose, etc.

 

[chevyontheriver]

In an age of false ecumenism, it's true compassion and mercy to warn people that their non-Catholic sects do not offer the salvation of Jesus Christ.

In an age of manifold false teaching of every sort, It is true compassion and mercy to warn people that condemning Protestants to hell for not being Catholic is actually an offense that can lead to excommunication. One Father Leonard Feeney of Boston was excommunicated for exactly that.

The following two statements, based on Saint Cyprian, are true:

Pope Innocent III, <Profession of Faith for the Waldensians> (1208: DS 792): "We believe in our heart and confess in our mouth that there is one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic apostolic
Church, outside of which we believe no one is saved."

Lateran Council IV (1215: DS 802): "There is one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all is saved."

And yet they must be understood in a nuanced way. The Holy Office excommunicated Father Leonard Feeney in 1953 due to his failure to apply any nuance in consideration of Protestants. See Father William Most's discussion here:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/FEENEY.TXT

We do not believe that it is all hunky-dory not to be Catholic. Yet we do not claim every Protestant goes to hell if they don't up and become Catholic. Some are living by the light they have been given while suffering from a real invincible ignorance preventing them from joining the Catholic Church. Your garden variety Protestant is not excluded from salvation even though salvation is from the Church alone from Christ alone. The Catholic position on this should be apparent from 'Lumen Gentium', 'Unitatis Redintegratio', 'Ut Unum Sint', and 'Dominus Iesus'. It does NOT come from a simplistic reading of Saint Cyprian's very true maxim 'extra ecclesiam nulla salus'. The Catechism explains it decently in paragraphs 838 - 849 and even Wikipedia does OK here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

We do not say Protestants are going to hell because they are not Catholic. Let (some of) them say that about us if they feel the need. We do not say that or believe that about them. We accept their baptism and do not baptize them again if they become Catholic. We ought to encourage them to become Catholic individually and for their groupings to move towards historic Christianity.

 

[Jared R]

I of course do not say Protestants can't be saved. I do not say they will or won't be, and I can only say salvation is in the Church. It's an important nuance.

 

[thecolorsblend]

We do not believe that it is all hunky-dory not to be Catholic. Yet we do not claim every Protestant goes to hell if they don't up and become Catholic. Some are living by the light they have been given while suffering from a real invincible ignorance preventing them from joining the Catholic Church. Your garden variety Protestant is not excluded from salvation even though salvation is from the Church alone from Christ alone. The Catholic position on this should be apparent from 'Lumen Gentium', 'Unitatis Redintegratio', 'Ut Unum Sint', and 'Dominus Iesus'.

These are points that I fear a great many Catholics are not sensitive to and so underplay. You correctly identified Feeneyism as erroneous and to be avoided and also correctly don't lightly permit Protestantism. But I don't know that a lot of Catholics completely understand the imperative to evangelize Protestants.

 

[concretecamper]

We do not believe that it is all hunky-dory not to be Catholic. Yet we do not claim every Protestant goes to hell if they don't up and become Catholic. Some are living by the light they have been given while suffering from a real invincible ignorance preventing them from joining the Catholic Church. Your garden variety Protestant is not excluded from salvation even though salvation is from the Church alone from Christ alone.

Correct, yet the best the Church can proclaim is "may" when it speaks about salvation for non Catholic Christians. So given this fact, it is an imperative we not nuance the truth about salavation.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Correct, yet the best the Church can proclaim is "may" when it speaks about salvation for non Catholic Christians. So given this fact, it is an imperative we not nuance the truth about salavation.

And the best we can proclaim about Catholic Christians is "may' as there is no guarantee that every Catholic will be saved. We do have the fullness of the means of salvation, which not all Catholics avail themselves of. Some of that fullness leaks out and non catholic Christians do avail themselves of it.

The word 'nuance' is a tricky word. To some it means 'to clarify' while to others it means 'to muddy'. I think it is imperative that we clarify, particularly things that look obvious but are more complex than they look. The salvation of Protestants looks totally dubious when we read 'extra ecclesiam nulla salus' straight up. That's not the way to read it though. Father Most's article was good at fleshing out the context of that statement.

My hunch, and I do wish I am wrong, is that not many will be saved, not many Catholics, not many Protestants, not many others. That almost everybody thinks they themselves are among the saved but have fooled themselves. And I'm not just referring to the 'once saved always saved' crowd. The Catholic Church has within it the fullness of the means of salvation but few avail themselves of it. God be merciful to me and all the rest of us.

 

[chevyontheriver]

These are points that I fear a great many Catholics are not sensitive to and so underplay. You correctly identified Feeneyism as erroneous and to be avoided and also correctly don't lightly permit Protestantism. But I don't know that a lot of Catholics completely understand the imperative to evangelize Protestants.

It is all the more important now that ecumenism has all but collapsed. There was a time, in the 1970's, when we could believe that the Catholics and the Anglicans would come together, that the Catholics and the Lutherans would, maybe the Baptists, Methodists, and all sorts of others too. But what happened?

Look at the Anglicans. Things moved a bit in the direction of unity but then the Anglicans started going full tilt in crazy directions. The only progress of late is the formation of the Anglican Ordinariates where a minority of Anglican bishops and priests and lay members can migrate over as refugees but keep their Prayerbook and rites. The Episcopalian version of the Anglicans is otherwise almost unrecognisable as what it was in the hay-day of ecumenism. They are not ecumenical partners any longer, not at all like they were. They changed. Maybe the African Anglicans are an exception, or the 'continuing' Anglicans, but the ECUSA is not. That's sad for me as I followed the ARCIC process intently. All that work for naught.

Same story in many other mainstream/oldstream denominations. They are sailing to different ports.

A bit different among the evangelicals, but as a group they have lots of antibodies against investigating the Catholic Church. So individuals find their way across the Tiber, while their groups resist.

We need to assist the individual Protestants cross the Tiber. We were open to ecumenism, and I suppose we still are even though the cheese got moved on us. But you are totally right that we need to assist them as individuals in becoming Catholic, finding the fullness of the faith, not abandoning them to what little they have found up to now.