He who isn't a member of the Catholic Church, unless not knowing it, is against it

AXO

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I'm in need of reminding you that those who aren't part of the Church, except because of ignorance of the Christian and Catholic message, are AGAINST it, and thus they can't be saved. Just because the Catholic Church is the Body of Christ and is the one that leads to Himself, those who DELIBERATELY decide not to join our Faith can't find Jesus or Heaven, and in addition they're against it, because they decide to condemn Jesus and His Sole Church. This has been declarated EX CATHEDRA, thus as an infallible message of the doctrine from the Chair of Peter to the Universal Faith.

–It [The Holy Roman Church] condemns, rejects and anathematizes all who thinking opposed and contrary things, and declares them to be aliens from the Body of Christ, which is the Church.
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, bull Cantate Domino, ex cathedra (infallible) (1441).

–Those who do not comply are certainly not to be counted among the sheep of Christ.
Pope Pius VII, Diu satis (May 15, 1800).

–...there is One God, One Faith, One Baptism... those who are not with Christ are against Him... and... they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore, without a doubt they will perish forever unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate...
Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari vos (Aug. 15, 1832).

–Does he who deserts and resists the Chair of Peter, on which the Church was founded, have confidence that he is in the Church?
Pope Pelagius II, Dilectionis vestrae (585).

–...not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever [or separate] a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism, heresy or apostasy.
Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (Jun. 29, 1943).

–If anyone, however, either suggests or believes or presumes to teach contrary to his faith, let him know that he is condemned and also anathematized according to the opinion of the same Fathers.
Pope Pelagius II, Quod ad dilectionem (585).
 
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Agnikan

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I'm in need of reminding you that those who aren't part of the Church, except because of ignorance of the Christian and Catholic message, are AGAINST it, and thus they can't be saved.....

In other words, "ignorance" includes both (1) not knowing about the very existence of the Church and (2) not believing that the Church is the only Church founded by Christ and is necessary for salvation. Thus, a Native American living in Florida, in 1300, may be saved; and a cradle Lutheran living in Chicago in 1900, not convinced of the Church's teaching, may be saved, as well.
 
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AXO

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In other words, "ignorance" includes both (1) not knowing about the very existence of the Church and (2) not believing that the Church is the only Church founded by Christ and is necessary for salvation. Thus, a Native American living in Florida, in 1300, may be saved; and a cradle Lutheran living in Chicago in 1900, not convinced of the Church's teaching, may be saved, as well.
No; stricto sensu "ignorance" here means "no knowledge": the Native American who cannot access the Catholic faith can be saved. However, one knowing the Christian faith must, at least, to confess the Symbol of Faith to be (by the ordinary way) saved.
 
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Agnikan

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No; stricto sensu "ignorance" here means "no knowledge": the Native American who cannot access the Catholic faith can be saved. However, one knowing the Christian faith must, at least, to confess the Symbol of Faith to be (by the ordinary way) saved.

Could you cite an authoritative magisterial source that teaches that 'ignorance', in this context, means only 'no knowledge'.
 
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Rhamiel

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All one needs is faith in Christ to be a Christian, not membership in a church. We are saved by faith alone and not of works.

faith without works is dead

and as for faith in Christ
well Muslims and Mormons will say they believe in Christ
you need the Church to pass on the true teachings of the Gospel to prevent selfish and perverted men from twisting the teachings of the Christian Faith
 
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Sword of the Lord

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Well, I'm aware of the Roman Catholic Church, and I claim and believe in the Christian faith, accept Christ as my Lord and Savior; and yet, through no fault of my own, I cannot, at this point in time, join the RCC because in my innermost being I do not, at this point in time, believe, without a shadow of a doubt, that the RCC is the only true Church of Jesus Christ; yet, I still accept Jesus with all of my heart and soul, despite what you say. I'm not against the RCC, I just don't believe in it wholeheartedly and have some concerns. And then, of course, this:

Anyone Not Against Us Is For Us

49 fJohn answered, “Master, we saw someone gcasting out demons in your name, and hwe tried to stop him, because he does not follow with us.” 50 But Jesus said to him, “Do not stop him, ifor the one who is not against you is for you.”
 
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GoingByzantine

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I think that we have seen through joint dialogue over the past 3 Papacies, that the condemning nature of the past is no longer 100% relevant. At the time, it was completely relevant, however today the Catholic Church recognizes unity through diversity.
 
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outsidethecamp

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Jesus said, "Come to ME all ye that are weary", not "come to that church or this church."

Only Jesus knows those that are of His Body.

2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
 
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Rhamiel

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Jesus said, "Come to ME all ye that are weary", not "come to that church or this church."

Only Jesus knows those that are of His Body.

2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

the Church is the Body of Christ

as we can see from Acts and the other Epistles, the Church is a visible institution
the Church held a council in Jerusalem
the Apostles wrote Epistles to the Church in different cities, I mean, they had to send them to some group, they were not just read openly in the town square
it was sent to the Church within that city

you are correct about Jesus knows who is with Him and who is not

it is possible that some people within heretical sects may be saved
but the assurance of salvation is within the Church
 
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Korah

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I appreciate your sensitivity, sounds like me from 1969 to 1992.
My M. A. in History not coincidentally coincided with my baptism as a convert Holy Saturday 1969. Historians such as Carlton J. H. Hayes preceded me as notable converts to RC. Then I doubled down in 1970 so far as to become a Legitimist (Monarchist to you) Traditionalist (while not coincidentally adopting Jewish Hasidic Reincarnation as my means of saving the dying (cute play on words, no?) doctrine of Purgatory). Than I tripled down in 1977 and got baptized in the Spirit in the Charismatic Renewal (and shed my Rightist politics as wrong-headed).
Unfortunately for various reasons I became a relapsed heretic in 1992, first as an Episcopalian and then in 2004 as Lutheran. There I detest the 2009-and-onwards heresy, but I really can't find anywhere to go as a Moderate who accepts Higher Criticism and detests the Athanasian Creed.
And you of course know where I'll go when I die--or is there any way possible way to reconcile some ultra-liberal RC theology with any possibility for such a recusant relapsed heretic as I to be saved or even avoid Hell? (Perhaps that I joined in 1969 during heady Post-Vatican-II "Anything goes" days means that I was deceived into "marriage" with RC and I could later plead being deceived and I qualify for an "Annulment" and don't go straight to Hell?) (That's about as likely as "my" Pope Paul VI rising from the grave, or me renouncing my published-on-internet fifteen proofs that RC is not the True Faith. Or maybe Pope Francis will embrace Nestorianism, which may be where I'm headed next.)
 
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thecolorsblend

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the Church is the Body of Christ as we can see from Acts and the other Epistles, the Church is a visible institution the Church held a council in Jerusalem the Apostles wrote Epistles to the Church in different cities, I mean, they had to send them to some group, they were not just read openly in the town square it was sent to the Church within that city

you are correct about Jesus knows who is with Him and who is not

it is possible that some people within heretical sects may be saved but the assurance of salvation is within the Church
The entire Protestant reason for being revolves around rejecting the Mother Church. It seems a bit much to ask people with that as their motivation to be fair and even-handed with us.
 
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pdudgeon

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the Church is the Body of Christ

as we can see from Acts and the other Epistles, the Church is a visible institution
the Church held a council in Jerusalem
the Apostles wrote Epistles to the Church in different cities, I mean, they had to send them to some group, they were not just read openly in the town square
it was sent to the Church within that city

you are correct about Jesus knows who is with Him and who is not

it is possible that some people within heretical sects may be saved
but the assurance of salvation is within the Church

along that line, whatever happened to the idea of the New Evangelization? I haven't heard anything about it for a while now.
"Catholics Come Home" is going strong, but the idea of bringing in or accepting those who were not Catholics to begin with? not so much. :oops:
now it seems to be more important to reject them before they get to the door.
 
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pdudgeon

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.............And then, of course, this:

Anyone Not Against Us Is For Us

49 fJohn answered, “Master, we saw someone gcasting out demons in your name, and hwe tried to stop him, because he does not follow with us.” 50 But Jesus said to him, “Do not stop him, ifor the one who is not against you is for you.”

you are right, and this still happens today.
the problem was one of zeal overcoming love in the hearts of the disciples.
Jesus however saw things differently, because He looked at the heart and not just the outward appearance.
And some people today would still argue on the side of the disciples, saying
"Well of course Jesus would say that, because He could see what was within their hearts."

But they forget that the evidence of what is in a person's heart and thoughts is revealed in their words.
 
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Martinius

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It's good to know we have such zealous people protecting the gates of heaven. I have this vision of Jesus blessing, forgiving, and finding great faith in all kinds of people (just as he did in the Gospels) and sending them up the road toward paradise, only to have them intercepted and denied entrance by some self-appointed "guardians of the galaxy" only because they didn't have the right color ticket. I feel quite sorry for those "protectors" when Jesus finds out what they have been doing to the very people he thought he had saved.

I just realized why every few months I feel the need to take a hiatus from this place. It is so I can purge my spirit, soul and intellect of stuff like this.

Note: I am Catholic, so please don't accuse me of attacking the Church I love and to which I have devoted much time, talent (very little to share) and treasure (even less).
 
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fat wee robin

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It's good to know we have such zealous people protecting the gates of heaven. I have this vision of Jesus blessing, forgiving, and finding great faith in all kinds of people (just as he did in the Gospels) and sending them up the road toward paradise, only to have them intercepted and denied entrance by some self-appointed "guardians of the galaxy" only because they didn't have the right color ticket. I feel quite sorry for those "protectors" when Jesus finds out what they have been doing to the very people he thought he had saved.

As they say Martinius, Pride(orgueil ) comes before a FALL ,and it will be a big one .

I just realized why every few months I feel the need to take a hiatus from this place. It is so I can purge my spirit, soul and intellect of stuff like this.

Note: I am Catholic, so please don't accuse me of attacking the Church I love and to which I have devoted much time, talent (very little to share) and treasure (even less).
 
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fat wee robin

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It's good to know we have such zealous people protecting the gates of heaven. I have this vision of Jesus blessing, forgiving, and finding great faith in all kinds of people (just as he did in the Gospels) and sending them up the road toward paradise, only to have them intercepted and denied entrance by some self-appointed "guardians of the galaxy" only because they didn't have the right color ticket. I feel quite sorry for those "protectors" when Jesus finds out what they have been doing to the very people he thought he had saved.

I just realized why every few months I feel the need to take a hiatus from this place. It is so I can purge my spirit, soul and intellect of stuff like this.

Note: I am Catholic, so please don't accuse me of attacking the Church I love and to which I have devoted much time, talent (very little to share) and treasure (even less).
Martinius as we know , pride (ORGUIEL ) comes before a FALL, and there is much orguiel ,among these people .
 
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