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Surely you know that this isn't what Calvinists actually believe...surely...
According to the counter arguments I've seen on here, it appears that way. Take you, for instance. You believe salvation can be lost, correct?
The point is, if God starts it, He finishes it. That's the consistent position of monergists. It's far from the consistent view of synergists.
Since salvation is a union with Christ, much like a marriage, yes, a man can turn away from the one with which he is in union. And then be cut off from that union by God Himself (John 15:6).
I am a synergist, and I know God starts and finishes it. If God starts it, and man no longer wants to continue in it and bear fruit, then God will finish it by cutting him off from the branch to be thrown into the fire. If man wants to continue in it and bear fruit, then God will prune him to bear more fruit.
I am a synergist, and I know God starts and finishes it. If God starts it, and man no longer wants to continue in it and bear fruit, then God will finish it by cutting him off from the branch to be thrown into the fire. If man wants to continue in it and bear fruit, then God will prune him to bear more fruit.
But that's the opposite of what the verse is saying. It doesn't say that as long as you do your part, God does His.
And again, you have to twist that verse to get it to even remotely resemble this assertion.
If God starts it, then God finishes it. If God starts it, and the man walks away, how can God finish it? According to the text, that can't happen.
Interesting, particularly given the fact that the Biblical concept of "hope" is not the same as the contemporary Western view of something that is strongly desired in the absence of assurance (and often against likelihood) which you seem to be projecting upon the text. The author speaks in the strongest possible terms of confidence throughout the opening of his epistle.
We can argue about the nature of what work it is in view in the verse, but to relegate it to the level of wishful thinking on the part of the apostle I think does injustice to the text.
Let's have a look at these verses from John 15, and you tell me if man has no part in it, and if he does, then let's see if God does His part. I am going to put man's part in red, and God's part in blue.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
If a man (the branch) abides in Christ (the vine), the branch will bear much fruit. Bearing fruit is very much contingent upon man abiding in Christ. Therefore, man does his part, then God does His part.
Also, if a man abides in Christ (man's part), he can ask what he desires, and it shall be done to him (God's part).
We also have this, if a man does not abide in Christ (man not doing his part), he is cast out, withered, gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned (God's part).
So I ask, how do you contend this is not talking about man doing his part, and then God doing His part? (Matthew 13:14)
Really? Then please tell me why God casts someone out as a branch, withered, gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned? Is it not because man first removed himself from the vine?
So I see you agree, it all depends upon man for God to finish what He started. If man fails to abide in the vine, God will cut him off from the vine, he will wither, be gathered, be thrown into the fire, and will be burned.
That's not in the verse, or the passage, in discussion.
I see you completely missed Dawn's point. I'll assume that it wasn't intentional.
If God does it all you won't be yourself and live as you have always done. For God puts His Spirit with in you and causes you to walk in His statutes..I am just trying to show it is not monergistic as Calvinists would have us believe. I agree with you completely, God starts and completes salvation with the cooperation of man.
Once I portray someone who wants God to do it all, and let me be myself and live as I have always done, I get 'you need to believe and repent'. I am trying to show it is not all God without us doing our part. If man has any part, no matter how small, it ceases to monergistic.
I never suggested it was "wishful thinking" or the "Western" view of confidence. Re-read what I suggested.
Okay. Welcome to Calvinism.
The point is, if God starts it, He finishes it. That's the consistent position of monergists. It's far from the consistent view of synergists.
monergist, synergist, blah, blah, blah...what is really important is to include all the Lord has given us to understand this process and that is all the word from pg. 1 of book 1 to pg. last of book last...these boxes are man made....
Okay everyone go to your Strong's and look up monergism or synergism...Okay what did you get? Oh you mean neither man made box (probably made by Calvinists) is there? Dag! Well we better get on it in the newest version/translation...
Paul
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