He wants EVERYONE saved?

98cwitr · Aug 20, 2014

nonaeroterraqueous said:
It's an interesting subject, this business of trying to understand God in human terms. He leads a horse to water, gets frustrated when it won't drink, and then makes the best of a bad situation by having a barbecue when the thing dies. Okay, no, that's not right. We're dealing with God, who is all-knowing, all-powerful, never makes mistakes and never fails, for whom nothing is impossible. You could argue that God wouldn't offer the message if he knew you would not accept it, but that's not true. You know very well that he would, just like the sower that threw seed onto the hard path, where it would never take root.

I have asked this question a dozen times on this forum and this has been the most educated and insightful response. Thank you. While I dont necessary agree with the conclusion, it gives food for thought.

Bluelion · Aug 20, 2014

nonaeroterraqueous said:
This is biblical:

Yes, I do put a stumbling block, Christ crucified, before people.

Even God puts a stumbling block before people.

Just to be clear, my objective has always been to, first, do my best to find the truth, and second, to present people with that truth. Being an effective salesman is without value if I win people over to anything less than the truth.

, Jesus the son of God the truth the way the life, is the truth. The truth was a stumbling block to the Jews.

It is simply not truth that people are created for hell, hell is a place cut off from God, it is not biblical that God created people just to cut them off. The Bible tells us of the truth of Jesus and salvation, no where does it say, people are created for hell.

i know truth in my heart and that is not it. That is not love, and as God commands us to love everyone so does God Love all humans. For he send s the sun and rain on the just and unjust alike.

I really don't care to debate the Calvinist ideas that has been done to death in the section. I said my peace i will be moving on.

98cwitr · Aug 20, 2014

Bluelion said:
, Jesus the son of God the truth the way the life, is the truth. The truth was a stumbling block to the Jews.

It is simply not truth that people are created for hell, hell is a place cut off from God, it is not biblical that God created people just to cut them off. The Bible tells us of the truth of Jesus and salvation, no where does it say, people are created for hell.

i know truth in my heart and that is not it. That is not love, and as God commands us to love everyone so does God Love all humans. For he send s the sun and rain on the just and unjust alike.

I really don't care to debate the Calvinist ideas that has been done to death in the section. I said my peace i will be moving on.

Then why does God create people who will never believe? Doesn't He know before He creates them that He will cut them off in the end?

Avid · Aug 20, 2014

98cwitr said:
Then why does God create people who will never believe? Doesn't He know before He creates them that He will cut them off in the end?

I'll say this with the assumption you really want an answer, and not that this is part of an ongoing thing between people posting here. God addressed this in His word. Everyone that comes to God through Christ must recognized how they are saved, and that it is not just that they decided one day to be a completely different type of person.

For me, a turning point in my understanding came when I read in a book by Richard Baxter (1615−1691) that salvation from God is not turning over a new leaf, or any of that type of phrase we hear from the mamby-pamby preachers of today!

John 6
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Romans 9
14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

It is very common that people let this get to them, and I have heard a number of them say how angry they were at God for this. It was at that point they had to deal with God's sovereignty.

Just look at us. Everything is backwards; everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information, and religions destroy spirituality.
Dr. Michael Ellner

I have earthen vessels in my house that were made to be dishonored. They are dishonored regularly, and there is a use for them. It would be very unusual to dishonor a vessel made for honor. It will likely never happen that I would use a vessel made for dishonor for the purpose of the most honored vessels.

I am going to assume the same thing happens in your house as well. If you think there is something wrong with YOU deciding which vessels are fitted for dishonor, and using them that way, then you should explain the thinking that takes away your sovereignty in your own home. Which of the earthen vessels will complain to you of the job they must do? Which will have an argument that you will accept on the subject?

Our LORD said that we should STRIVE to enter in at the STRAIT GATE, for many will SEEK to, but not be able. What do we think it means to STRIVE?

Strive
verb

to struggle or exert oneself vigorously; to try hard.
to make strenuous, tenacious efforts toward a goal.
to contend in opposition; to battle; to compete.

Synonyms:
try, labor, toil, struggle, fight, contend, bear, contest, cope.

It is not an easy thing to turn from self and trust God. It is simple enough to say, and simple enough to understand, but doing it is not easy.

All your powers and faculties are so corrupt in your natural state that, except you be purged from dead works, you cannot serve the living God.
Joseph Alleine (1634−1668)

Be about seeking the Door, the Strait Gate, the ONLY WAY that leads to life! It is the only correct action for any of us. Trying to find something and giving up is not counted as having found it, is it?

Time runs; and will you be slothful? Much of your lives are past; and will you be slothful? Your souls are worth a thousand worlds; and will you be slothful? The day of death and judgment is at the door; and will you be slothful?
John Bunyan (1628−1688)

.

Petruchio · Aug 21, 2014

Bluelion said:
I don't think it shows a lack of fear of God, but an understanding of right and wrong. damning a person to hell with no choice or chance to change there fate is just not justice.

A Christian ought to submit to the scripture, and not charge God with injustice. The same argument could be made against the Arminian, since, as we know, no one is saved but through Christ, which effectively leaves millions upon millions of people who have never heard the Gospel as "strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world" (Eph 2:12). Why God chooses to save one person over another is not a matter which mankind has a right to judge, but must submit to the God who "has mercy on whom He will have mercy" (Rom 9:15).

We who are saved have no place to boast in this, since we also deserve to be destroyed with the whole lot of humanity. Yet God was willing to save us, even when we were, by nature, His absolute enemies.

WHat you are teaching does not bring people to God but turns them against God. It does not reflect the God of Love in the Bible, nor is it showing love of others to say a person is damned to hell through no fault of there own.

All I did was quote Paul, and gave no theology in that particular post.

The scripture teaches that God has ordained the fall of men and has "made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil" (Pro 16:4). The scripture also teaches that these same men will be judged, not for the works of God, but for their own sins, even being punished for the sin of murdering their savior, although it was done according to the "determinate counsel" of God (Act 2:23). God ordained their births, their actions, regulating the darkness, and using their evil acts to perform a greater good; and yet, at the same time, they hold the full guilt of sin. You can grapple with this, you can even disbelieve it for a time, but if it is true, you are obligated to believe this, and accept the sovereign God who has "mercy on whom He will have mercy."

I think people have God's laws written on there heart, and God speaks to the heart of every man and woman telling them right from wrong, and they see this teaching as wrong and a grave injustices, and rebel against it.

No disagreement here.

I think you also need to be aware this teaching cast stumbling blocks before people, and you will have to answer one day for every block you put in front of a person, and if it is found this teaching was the cause of a person stumbling and even losing there soul and if you preached and were the cause you will be made to give an account for that persons life and sin.

What do I have to fear if I speak the truth? But, no one can frustrate the power of God. The scripture is clear, "[a]ll that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6:37).

This is what is really all biblical.

Peace and Love, its about love, just love for crying out loud
blu.

Love is worthless if it is founded on lies. In fact, a love founded on lies is an abomination.

Avid · Aug 21, 2014

98cwitr said:
... Why would God lead a man to this "cliff" of faith knowing that the man would not jump?

Other questions you may ask include, "Why would God harden Pharaoh, and allow him to resist with such ferocity while witnessing God's great power and mercy? Why does it bring glory to God for the wicked to be exceedingly wicked, and the righteous to be perfectly pious?"

Wicked Kings over the centuries had taken notice of the patience displayed by some martyrs as they were tortured. It is a glory to God for His grace to be contrasted with the utter, vicious wickedness of those who oppose it.

Another forum here has a question about certain believers, and a scientific error. The problem is that, through history, it is the opponents of the English Bible that had false scientific beliefs. Even Galileo had to recant his scientific findings before the opposition of the pope. It was rather recently that a pope reversed their position on that bit of science. It took over 300 years for that to happen.

Why did I put you through that? So I might ask you, "What glory is it to God that he brings you through so much distress, and has you ask every question your heart will imagine as he shows you His great power and grace - preserving you through many dangers and evils?" It will be a shining jewel for Him throughout ALL ETERNITY that He has taken someone with all these objections to His sovereignty, and has made him a servant of Christ. (same is true for each of us, BTW...)

.

Avid · Aug 21, 2014

nonaeroterraqueous said:
... You could argue that God wouldn't offer the message if he knew you would not accept it, but that's not true. You know very well that he would, just like the sower that threw seed onto the hard path, where it would never take root...

Good post!

There is a General Call to come to Christ, and there is an Effectual Call that perseveres past the objections and resistance of of the sinner. In the parable, the sower was not trying to include the road or the brush at the edge of his field. "SOME FELL" is what is said.

This is not by accident. The broadcast of seed necessitates that enough seed is cast to cover the field of good, prepared soil. That some falls where it is not intended, or expected to grow (on thin soil over rocks) does not violate the intent of the sower. If he stood still, and dropped the seed ONLY where he intended it to be prosperous, he would spend TOO MUCH TIME AND EFFORT and never finish. Also, the wind might yet blow a few seeds into the wrong area. It is NOT ACCIDENTAL that God allows/causes the word to go out to places he expects it to be choked, stolen or be deprived of the depth required for the plants to flourish.

If any of us are where we may hear the truth preached, we are responsible to God for the opportunities He provides. It is important to prepare the ground (our hearts) and receive the seed (God's word) that is cast upon us.

Jeremiah 4
3 ¶ For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.

Hosea 10
12 Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.

Many uses of farming for examples to people that God would instruct! Most people then knew these things, and if they missed the correlation with getting right in the sight of God, He included these passages. God is NOT trying to instruct new farmers, or those who have forgotten how to properly prepare soil and planting space. BOTH passages are about preparing the heart of the people God deals with.

There is WORK involved in this preparation. It is not the WORK that gives us salvation, as that is not something that can be earned. It is, however, necessary to prepare if you expect a good crop. If the fruit you seek is wheat, you plow the ground of your field. If the fruit you expect is righteousness, you plow the ground of your heart.

.

98cwitr · Aug 21, 2014

Avid said:
Other questions you may ask include, "Why would God harden Pharaoh, and allow him to resist with such ferocity while witnessing God's great power and mercy? Why does it bring glory to God for the wicked to be exceedingly wicked, and the righteous to be perfectly pious?"

Wicked Kings over the centuries had taken notice of the patience displayed by some martyrs as they were tortured. It is a glory to God for His grace to be contrasted with the utter, vicious wickedness of those who oppose it.

Another forum here has a question about certain believers, and a scientific error. The problem is that, through history, it is the opponents of the English Bible that had false scientific beliefs. Even Galileo had to recant his scientific findings before the opposition of the pope. It was rather recently that a pope reversed their position on that bit of science. It took over 300 years for that to happen.

Why did I put you through that? So I might ask you, "What glory is it to God that he brings you through so much distress, and has you ask every question your heart will imagine as he shows you His great power and grace - preserving you through many dangers and evils?" It will be a shining jewel for Him throughout ALL ETERNITY that He has taken someone with all these objections to His sovereignty, and has made him a servant of Christ. (same is true for each of us, BTW...)

.

Glad you brought that up. The answer is given in Romans 9

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on Gods mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will? 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, Why did you make me like this?[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

2 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrathprepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory

Bluelion · Aug 21, 2014

Petruchio said:
A Christian ought to submit to the scripture, and not charge God with injustice. The same argument could be made against the Arminian, since, as we know, no one is saved but through Christ, which effectively leaves millions upon millions of people who have never heard the Gospel as "strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world" (Eph 2:12). Why God chooses to save one person over another is not a matter which mankind has a right to judge, but must submit to the God who "has mercy on whom He will have mercy" (Rom 9:15).

We who are saved have no place to boast in this, since we also deserve to be destroyed with the whole lot of humanity. Yet God was willing to save us, even when we were, by nature, His absolute enemies.

All I did was quote Paul, and gave no theology in that particular post.

The scripture teaches that God has ordained the fall of men and has "made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil" (Pro 16:4). The scripture also teaches that these same men will be judged, not for the works of God, but for their own sins, even being punished for the sin of murdering their savior, although it was done according to the "determinate counsel" of God (Act 2:23). God ordained their births, their actions, regulating the darkness, and using their evil acts to perform a greater good; and yet, at the same time, they hold the full guilt of sin. You can grapple with this, you can even disbelieve it for a time, but if it is true, you are obligated to believe this, and accept the sovereign God who has "mercy on whom He will have mercy."

No disagreement here.

What do I have to fear if I speak the truth? But, no one can frustrate the power of God. The scripture is clear, "[a]ll that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6:37).

This is what is really all biblical.

Love is worthless if it is founded on lies. In fact, a love founded on lies is an abomination.

Yeah i don't really care for your judgement, and falsely accusing me saying I did something I did not do. I in now way Judged God because I disagree with what you are preaching In fact what I did say I don't believe what you are preaching is from God. My comments were made about what you were posting and not God.

And really when some one says Love and Peace and then you have something negative to say about a positive statement shows you really have no interest in getting along. You are here to judge, so I am just going to leave you to that, but leave you with the way in which you judge shall be measured back to you, and you shall be judged, if you don't want to be judged don't judged. I am going to get back to loving people now, because after all Jesus did not come to judge the world but saved it, and if He being the judge with held judgement How much more so should I.

oh and you are not allowed to debate in here not being baptist and all. just saying.

Bluelion · Aug 21, 2014

98cwitr said:
Then why does God create people who will never believe? Doesn't He know before He creates them that He will cut them off in the end?

Good question. I suspect that with out these people there would be no choice, no evil, so my thought is that it is for free will, but he still gives them a chance.

I hope you find your answers I truly do friend.

98cwitr · Aug 21, 2014

How is there a chance when their Creator has foreknowledge of their demise prior to creation?

Bluelion · Aug 21, 2014

98cwitr said:
How is there a chance when their Creator has foreknowledge of their demise prior to creation?

ever see the movie minority report? It was about a future city which had people who saw crime in the furture a and they arrested people before they ever committed the crime. The questions was would these people have committed the crime because they were stop, so there was no crime, yet they were jailed and had committed no crime. They were judged base on what they were going to do not what they did.

God does not judge a person on what they will do, but what they have done, because if they were stop before they did it there was no crime because they were stopped. They never did a crime it never happen, the person has to be allowed to do it before they can be punished. Could God stop it sure, but then we would be discussing why does God stop me, i never had a choice I want a Choice. I might not have done what God saw, yada yada.

People have the choice, because God knows what the choice is does not change what they would choose.

Petruchio · Aug 21, 2014

Bluelion said:
You are here to judge, so I am just going to leave you to that, but leave you with the way in which you judge shall be measured back to you, and you shall be judged, if you don't want to be judged don't judged. I am going to get back to loving people now, because after all Jesus did not come to judge the world but saved it, and if He being the judge with held judgement How much more so should I.

All I got out of this was that you are judging me, not treating me as a person who might have sincere reasons for why I believe as I do, and then waltzing away as if you are some uber-righteous person concerned about judging.

Physician, heal thyself!

98cwitr · Aug 21, 2014

Bluelion said:
ever see the movie minority report? It was about a future city which had people who saw crime in the furture a and they arrested people before they ever committed the crime. The questions was would these people have committed the crime because they were stop, so there was no crime, yet they were jailed and had committed no crime. They were judged base on what they were going to do not what they did.

God does not judge a person on what they will do, but what they have done, because if they were stop before they did it there was no crime because they were stopped. They never did a crime it never happen, the person has to be allowed to do it before they can be punished. Could God stop it sure, but then we would be discussing why does God stop me, i never had a choice I want a Choice. I might not have done what God saw, yada yada.

People have the choice, because God knows what the choice is does not change what they would choose.

The breakdown in that analogy is God doesn't punish the wicked right away (rains on both the wicked and righteous right?)...so therefore their sins are still apparent and active; and thus they are guilty. Really doesn't address the question though, Blue.

Why create those who will never believe?

Bluelion · Aug 21, 2014

Petruchio said:
All I got out of this was that you are judging me, not treating me as a person who might have sincere reasons for why I believe as I do, and then waltzing away as if you are some uber-righteous person concerned about judging.

Physician, heal thyself!

did you get the part where this is not your faith section and you are not aloud to debate in this section?

Bluelion · Aug 21, 2014

98cwitr said:
The breakdown in that analogy is God doesn't punish the wicked right away (rains on both the wicked and righteous right?)...so therefore their sins are still apparent and active; and thus they are guilty. Really doesn't address the question though, Blue.

Why create those who will never believe?

You must have missed it where I said i did not have an answer, I said that is a Good question. Ask God maybe He will tell you.

Petruchio · Aug 21, 2014

Bluelion said:
did you get the part where this is not your faith section and you are not aloud to debate in this section?

Since I'm not debating against Baptist doctrine, I completely ignored it.

Bluelion · Aug 21, 2014

Petruchio said:
Since I'm not debating against Baptist doctrine, I completely ignored it.

it doesn't matter if you are or not your not aloud to debate at all because you are not of this faith. I have friends who have tried and got in trouble, just warning you, but you do what you like.

I saw on your bio under ministry was the answer picking fights. That is the opposite of a peace keeper. Those who keep the peace being called sons and daughters of God. I think we are meant to keep the peace not pick fights. I have no wish to converse with some one who does. so you can pick a fight some where else thank you, this is my last post to you. This is in no way questioning your faith. Just saying what God says. Good luck wish you the best.

Peace and Love
blu

Bluelion · Aug 21, 2014

98 maybe the question is, does God mean what He says that He is willing that none parish, and if that is His will, why not make sure none die? If the answer to why God does not simply make a person unable to sin any more, and force salvation on them, is not because we wants a person to chose Him out of Love. The what is the reason God lets people go to Hell, because the Word says He is willing all be saved? So what is stopping all from being saved?

98cwitr · Aug 21, 2014

Is not my nature forced? Did I get to choose who I am? To answer your last question: sin, sin keeps people from being saved.

He wants EVERYONE saved?

Lord forgive me

Peace and Love

Lord forgive me

A Pilgrim and a Sojourner...

Petruchio

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A Pilgrim and a Sojourner...

A Pilgrim and a Sojourner...

Lord forgive me

Peace and Love

Peace and Love

Lord forgive me

Peace and Love

Petruchio

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Lord forgive me

Peace and Love

Peace and Love

Petruchio

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Peace and Love

Peace and Love

Lord forgive me

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