He stood at the door and knocks ...

[ananda]

I can live with that. I sometimes tear things apart due to the words chosen.....

I do the same thing!!

 

[awakeningaletheia]

First of all Jesus is talking to his churches not to unbelievers, the misuse of it being Jesus knocking on the door of someones heart is not supported by this passage. This verse is Jesus knocking on the door of his church to be let back in! When he says, "I stood and am knocking" I can easily picture him standing up after being tossed out. Yet I don't think he will knock forever on his church's door. In fact I would say that Jesus will indeed break in on his return as it says in Matthew,

Stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. (24:42-44)

He will come again as "a thief in the night" and will break down the doors, His people won't know what hit them. Honestly I'm ready for him to do so. The Laodiceans threw Jesus out almost 2000 years ago and not much has changed since.

 

[visionary]

First of all Jesus is talking to his churches not to unbelievers, the misuse of it being Jesus knocking on the door of someones heart is not supported by this passage. This verse is Jesus knocking on the door of his church to be let back in! When he says, "I stood and am knocking" I can easily picture him standing up after being tossed out. Yet I don't think he will knock forever on his church's door. In fact I would say that Jesus will indeed break in on his return as it says in Matthew,

Stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. (24:42-44)

He will come again as "a thief in the night" and will break down the doors, His people won't know what hit them. Honestly I'm ready for him to do so. The Laodiceans threw Jesus out almost 2000 years ago and not much has changed since.

When they say someone is Laodicean .. they are talking about that person's spiritual life. That is individual.

If it weren't for the individuals, there would not be a church. Just because a group of like minded get together doesn't change the fact the individuals are also of the same spiritual health or sickness.

Let's face it, salvation comes one soul at a time. We are saved as individuals, not as groups. "If anyone hears my voice... " Anyone is not a collective, but an individual.... "...I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." Taken from the NIV.

 

[Avodat]

When they say someone is Laodicean .. they are talking about that person's spiritual life. That is individual.

If it weren't for the individuals, there would not be a church. Just because a group of like minded get together doesn't change the fact the individuals are also of the same spiritual health or sickness.

Let's face it, salvation comes one soul at a time. We are saved as individuals, not as groups. "If anyone hears my voice... " Anyone is not a collective, but an individual.... "...I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." Taken from the NIV.

Ezekiel 18 - salvation is individual. We are each responsible for our own sins before G_d. Salvation by any form of proxy is not Biblical.

There is too much emphasis here on 'stand' (or its synonyms) and 'knock'. Although rooted in the past, it is a present continuous tense because Yeshua is outside of 21st century time - he was, is and evermore shall be, the Lamb upon the throne. The second half of the sentence is about Yeshua 'coming into him and dining with him'. There is no sense here that he means a congrgation or a whole religion, is there?

 

[visionary]

Ezekiel 18 - salvation is individual. We are each responsible for our own sins before G_d. Salvation by any form of proxy is not Biblical.

There is too much emphasis here on 'stand' (or its synonyms) and 'knock'. Although rooted in the past, it is a present continuous tense because Yeshua is outside of 21st century time - he was, is and evermore shall be, the Lamb upon the throne. The second half of the sentence is about Yeshua 'coming into him and dining with him'. There is no sense here that he means a congrgation or a whole religion, is there?

Outside our time, but very present, active, in our time... Yes

 

[SGM4HIM]

Here are a couple of scriptures that impressed me

Zechiariah 1:3 Therefore say to them, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts, “Return to Me,” declares the LORD of hosts, “that I may return to you,” says the LORD of hosts.

Luke 12:36 Be like men who are waiting for their master when he returns from the wedding feast, so that they may immediately open the door to him when he comes and knocks.

He stood, stands and will stand to restore a holy relationship with mankind and himself.

Being of Israel or the Church is not enough.

 

[ContraMundum]

That's just it, he doesn't use stand, which could be continuous. Instead, he uses stood, a thing done in the past and yet, he knocks which can be continuous also. As you pointed out, did he arise from the throne to stand in the past? Where is he now, if he stood but does no longer stand and yet still knocks......questions upon questions.....

Unfortunately, the translation put in the OP is incorrect. It is literally:

Rev 3:20 Behold (take heed), I stand at the door and knock: If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will enter to him, and I will dine with him, and he with Me.

The word mistranslated "stood" in the OP is in the perfect tense, which in Greek is not a "completed and finished" tense like it is in English, but rather conveys a "completed and continuing" idea. So, He still stands and knocks etc.

What is interesting is that a congregation is being addressed, yet as individuals. Like much of the apocalyptic style of this letter, it is symbolic in picture with a wider application that contains ongoing and universal truths.

That would pretty much clear up your question.

 

[ContraMundum]

Due to the nature of NT Greek, I believe both "stood" and "stand" are correct in context of the perfect active indicative word ἕστηκα in this verse. I chose "stood" in my translation because I believe the emphasis is on the action which Messiah completed in the past, but does not eliminate the connotation that his standing still continues to this day: "Messiah stood up in the past, and is standing now".

"Stood" would be incorrect, as verbs and subjects must agree, therefore, the right parsing of the text would indicate that the perfect tense is properly translated as "stand".

"Knock," κρούω, however, is in the present tense: "Messiah is continuously knocking."

Hence...if the subject if present tense, so must the verb be.

 

[Avodat]

Unfortunately, the translation put in the OP is incorrect. It is literally:

Rev 3:20 Behold (take heed), I stand at the door and knock: If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will enter to him, and I will dine with him, and he with Me.

The word mistranslated "stood" in the OP is in the perfect tense, which in Greek is not a "completed and finished" tense like it is in English, but rather conveys a "completed and continuing" idea. So, He still stands and knocks etc.

What is interesting is that a congregation is being addressed, yet as individuals. Like much of the apocalyptic style of this letter, it is symbolic in picture with a wider application that contains ongoing and universal truths.

That would pretty much clear up your question.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

My trust, faith, and obedience rests upon Messiah, not Paul.

Fair enough

 

[Avodat]

My trust, faith, and obedience rests upon Messiah, not Paul.

Just like every other believer in Yeshua - so why fuss about it!

 

[Lulav]

Who's fussing?

 

[ananda]

"Stood" would be incorrect, as verbs and subjects must agree, therefore, the right parsing of the text would indicate that the perfect tense is properly translated as "stand"

I figured that using the word "stand" would obscure the idea that He initated His standing in the past ...

 

[Avodat]

Who's fussing?

I fail to see the whole point of such a statement. The whole essence of belief in Yeshua is that, errrm, we believe in him and him alone for our salvation. We don't put our trust in Luke, John, Matthew, Timothy, James, John, Mark, Peter, Barnabus, Abraham, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Moses, Ezekiel, Ezra nor any other human character in The Book for our salvation, so why fuss about the fact we (as with everyone else) do not trust Paul with our salvation? The Bible doesn't require that we trust anyone but Yeshua. Seems quite showy to me. Perhaps I should say I am a non-Lucan believer! Or a non-Timothy believer! Where would we stop?

 

[visionary]

I fail to see the whole point of such a statement. The whole essence of belief in Yeshua is that, errrm, we believe in him and him alone for our salvation. We don't put our trust in Luke, John, Matthew, Timothy, James, John, Mark, Peter, Barnabus, Abraham, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Moses, Ezekiel, Ezra nor any other human character in The Book for our salvation, so why fuss about the fact we (as with everyone else) do not trust Paul with our salvation? The Bible doesn't require that we trust anyone but Yeshua. Seems quite showy to me. Perhaps I should say I am a non-Lucan believer! Or a non-Timothy believer! Where would we stop?

Fussing again I see....

 

[ananda]

I fail to see the whole point of such a statement. The whole essence of belief in Yeshua is that, errrm, we believe in him and him alone for our salvation. We don't put our trust in Luke, John, Matthew, Timothy, James, John, Mark, Peter, Barnabus, Abraham, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Moses, Ezekiel, Ezra nor any other human character in The Book for our salvation, so why fuss about the fact we (as with everyone else) do not trust Paul with our salvation? The Bible doesn't require that we trust anyone but Yeshua. Seems quite showy to me. Perhaps I should say I am a non-Lucan believer! Or a non-Timothy believer! Where would we stop?

You are confusing two different subjects.

I trust in John, Matthew, James, Abraham, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Moses, Ezekiel, Ezra, etc. as trustworthy messengers in the sense that I trust them to accurately guide me to YHVH's Message and His Son.

I trust in Yeshua Messiah and His Abba as my trustworthy Savior, and no one else.

 

[Avodat]

You are confusing two different subjects.

I trust in John, Matthew, James, Abraham, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Moses, Ezekiel, Ezra, etc. as trustworthy messengers in the sense that I trust them to accurately guide me to YHVH's Message and His Son.

I trust in Yeshua Messiah and His Abba as my trustworthy Savior, and no one else.

Never mind - your logic defeats me.