He Comes With Clouds

[Der Alte]

[ . . . ]This understanding of a trinity is from Babylonian religions, and historians even know when it came into Christianity, in the third century with Constantine. [Totally false statement!]

Still posting false anti-Trinitarian rhetoric spread by anonymous men in WTBS. Constantine was a Arian, NOT a Trinitarian, and he did absolutely nothing concerning a Trinity in the third century. If you are referring to the Nicaean council that was in 325, which was the 4th century. But the Trinity was NEVER discussed at Nicaea.

Babylon NEVER had a "Trinity" or even a Triad of deities. Any and all information spread by the WTBS about the Trinity is totally false. Note here are several references from the ECF, more than 100 years before Constantine. But I know your loyalty to the WTBS will not let you see this.

Clement Of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Stromata, Or Miscellanies Book 5

So that when he says, “Around the king of all, all things are, and because of Him are all things; and he [or that] is the cause of all good things; and around the second are the things second in order; and around the third, the third,” I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father.

Theophilus Of Antioch. [A.D. 115-168-181] To Autolycus Book 2

In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity, of God, and His Word, and His wisdom. And the fourth is the type of man, who needs light, that so there may be God, the Word, wisdom, man. Wherefore also on the fourth day the lights were made. The disposition of the stars, too, contains a type of the arrangement and order of the righteous and pious, and of those who keep the law and commandments of God.

Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation...[which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.

"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority...There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).

"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." ​

[ . . . ] The trinity is really from pagan religions , started in Babylon which is part of Babylon the Great, mentioned in Revelation.

Babylon NEVER had a "Trinity" or even a Triad of deities.

 

[FredVB]

Hello it'sme. My responses are again after your points.

>But really this thread is about Jesus second coming, and why he comes in the clouds.

I do not object to discussing this topic, but you keep posting that things I have said are wrong, with false reasoning that should be answered.

>There is no doubt about this, The trinity idea is a pagan idea, and was not from the bible or Jesus, but from Babylonian pagan religions.

You have said this, without showing the pagan basis for believing three persons are one and only one God, but only made arguments that scripture passages contradict a trinity, which is a private interpretation that can be countered.

>Here is an interesting translation of this.Colossians 1:7-17 (Contemporary English Version)

Contemporary English Version is not what I could call one of the better translations, and I can compare it with the Greek text of the new testament. But it still says the same thing:

15Christ is exactly like God,
who cannot be seen.
He is the first-born Son,
superior to all creation.
16Everything was created by him,
everything in heaven
and on earth,
everything seen and unseen,
including all forces
and powers,
and all rulers
and authorities.
All things were created
by God's Son,
and everything was made
for him.
17God's Son was before all else,
and by him everything
is held together.

The invisible God cannot be seen, but the incarnate Jesus can be seen, who is God visible to those who see him. I have communicated already "Yes, Jesus is Son of God. The word 'Son' refers to his incarnation. That he is the Son of God in no wise contradicts that with the Father he is one being, God. Men may be sons of God, Adam was before the fall, and in Christ men may come to be sons of God. But only Jesus is said and can only in truth be said to be the only begotten Son of God." I have already described meaning for the term first-born for Christ. The whole context exalts Christ with superlatives as the Creator, upholding the teaching found in many Bible passages. All things are made by him from nothing and for him, and he holds everything together. This is the property of God, the Creator, alone.

>The question is who made it for him? And then it goes on to say God's Son was before all else. Meaning before other creation.

That the Son of God was before all else does not mean at all he was (made, if you think that is implied) first before "other" creation. I have pointed out that the term "other" you find is added and not in the Greek text, or any that I can say are reliable translations. And that he is before all else, would you not say that God is before all else?

The other parts could be answered in a lengthy answer, but I would rather summarize to say that these points are made with an ignorance (no offense, but as you do not hold this view, you would not know all the points about it) of the distinct offices of the Father and the Word, who became flesh and is the Son. They are together one being, God, equal, which can be shown with Bible passages as I have said, but distinct with different offices, so the Son is not responsible with what the Father is with the distinct office of the Father, and neither is the Spirit. The Son can be shown to have distinct roles from the Father likewise, although he is still shown to be God. By "office", I mean distinct role with set of responsibilities, much as we in America have a government that by necessity of justice is divided into three branches for different roles. The Father and the Son are together the one God and so have the same capacity in all things, but the role and work of each is divided. And as the Will of the Father is sovereign, for instance, according to the role of the Father, the Son carries out the Will of the Father, for instance. The role of the Son actualizes the Will. More could be explained along these lines. It has already been established in this discussion that the Father is God to the Son, and so is the Son God to the Father.

 

[FredVB]

Hello it'sme. My responses are again after your points.

>But really this thread is about Jesus second coming, and why he comes in the clouds.

I do not object to discussing this topic, but you keep posting that things I have said are wrong, with false reasoning that should be answered.

>There is no doubt about this, The trinity idea is a pagan idea, and was not from the bible or Jesus, but from Babylonian pagan religions.

You have said this, without showing the pagan basis for believing three persons are one and only one God, but only made arguments that scripture passages contradict a trinity, which is a private interpretation that can be countered.

>Here is an interesting translation of this.Colossians 1:7-17 (Contemporary English Version)

Contemporary English Version is not what I could call one of the better translations, and I can compare it with the Greek text of the new testament. But it still says the same thing:

15Christ is exactly like God,
who cannot be seen.
He is the first-born Son,
superior to all creation.
16Everything was created by him,
everything in heaven
and on earth,
everything seen and unseen,
including all forces
and powers,
and all rulers
and authorities.
All things were created
by God's Son,
and everything was made
for him.
17God's Son was before all else,
and by him everything
is held together.

The invisible God cannot be seen, but the incarnate Jesus can be seen, who is God visible to those who see him. I have communicated already "Yes, Jesus is Son of God. The word 'Son' refers to his incarnation. That he is the Son of God in no wise contradicts that with the Father he is one being, God. Men may be sons of God, Adam was before the fall, and in Christ men may come to be sons of God. But only Jesus is said and can only in truth be said to be the only begotten Son of God." I have already described meaning for the term first-born for Christ. The whole context exalts Christ with superlatives as the Creator, upholding the teaching found in many Bible passages. All things are made by him from nothing and for him, and he holds everything together. This is the property of God, the Creator, alone.

>The question is who made it for him? And then it goes on to say God's Son was before all else. Meaning before other creation.

That the Son of God was before all else does not mean at all he was (made, if you think that is implied) first before "other" creation. I have pointed out that the term "other" you find is added and not in the Greek text, or any that I can say are reliable translations. And that he is before all else, would you not say that God is before all else?

The other parts could be answered in a lengthy answer, but I would rather summarize to say that these points are made with an ignorance (no offense, but as you do not hold this view, you would not know all the points about it) of the distinct offices of the Father and the Word, who became flesh and is the Son. They are together one being, God, equal, which can be shown with Bible passages as I have said, but distinct with different offices, so the Son is not responsible with what the Father is with the distinct office of the Father, and neither is the Spirit. The Son can be shown to have distinct roles from the Father likewise, although he is still shown to be God. By "office", I mean distinct role with set of responsibilities, much as we in America have a government that by necessity of justice is divided into three branches for different roles. The Father and the Son are together the one God and so have the same capacity in all things, but the role and work of each is divided. And as the Will of the Father is sovereign, for instance, according to the role of the Father, the Son carries out the Will of the Father, for instance. The role of the Son actualizes the Will. More could be explained along these lines. It has already been established in this discussion that the Father is God to the Son, and so is the Son God to the Father.

 

[it'sme]

I do not object to discussing this topic, but you keep posting that things I have said are wrong, with false reasoning that should be answered.

I understand this stand, as I would do the same.

That the Son of God was before all else does not mean at all he was (made, if you think that is implied) first before "other" creation. I have pointed out that the term "other" you find is added and not in the Greek text, or any that I can say are reliable translations. And that he is before all else, would you not say that God is before all else?

Hi Fred
The firstborn is primarily the oldest son of a father (rather than the firstborn of the mother), the beginning of the father’s generative power (De 21:17); also, the initial male offspring of animals, at times designated as “firstlings.”—Ge 4:4.
From earliest times the firstborn son held an honored position in the family and was the one who succeeded to the headship of the household. He inherited a double portion of the father’s property. (De 21:17) Reuben was seated by Joseph at a meal according to his right as firstborn. (Ge 43:33)
Jehovah was never a firstborn, he is the Father, and Micheal ( Jesus )was the firstborn.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.
In The Encyclopedia Americana we read: “Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.

So it is the interpretation of some , not from Jesus and his direct followers this is from pagan influences.And came to Christianity at a later time.

There were triads of gods, and among their divinities were those representing various forces of nature and ones that exercised special influence in certain activities of mankind. (Babylonian and Assyrian Religion, Norman, Okla.; 1963, S. H. Hooke, pp. 14-40) The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. This was not a new idea, it goes back into Babylonian, religions.

This is also part of the belief regarding death: “Neither the people nor the leaders of religious thought [in Babylon] ever faced the possibility of the total annihilation of what once was called into existence. Death was a passage to another kind of life.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, p. 556.
Position of the priesthood: “The distinction between priest and layman is characteristic of this [Babylonian] religion.”—Encyclopædia Britannica (1948), Vol. 2, p. 861.

None of these things were part of Jesus ministry on earth, but we see this in many Christian churches today.
The cross for instance, is also pagan, it comes from the Sun God that the Gauls, or Romans, worshiped. And is also part of sex worship.
The Non-Christian Cross by John Denham Parsons - Project Gutenberg

Though I wanted to really talk about the topic of this thread. Because Jesus second coming is being missed by many. Just like in the time when Jesus first came to the earth.

 

[Der Alte]

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

False anti-Christian rhetoric from the anonymous writers at WTBS. Here is how the WTBS misquoted the Catholic Encyclopedia. The WTBS quote shown in blue.

"Question of Continuity and Elemental Trinitarianism: From what has been seen thus far, the impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th-century invention. In a sense, this is true; but it implies an extremely strict interpretation of the key words Trinitarian and dogma. Triadic Consciousness in the Primitive Revelation. [color=blue=The formulation "one God in three Persons" was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century[/color]. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective; among the 2d-century Apologists, little more than a focusing of the problem as that of plurality within the unique Godhead. ... From the vocabulary and grammar of the Greek original, the intention of the hagiographer to communicate singleness of essence in three distinct Persons was easily derived. ... If it is clear on one side that the dogma of the Trinity in the stricter sense of the word was a late arrival, product of 3 centuries' reflection and debate, it is just as clear on the opposite side that confession of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit-and hence an elemental Trinitarianism-went back to the period of Christian origins. (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1965, Trinity, p299-300)​

In The Encyclopedia Americana we read: “Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.

Second hand quote from the anonymous writers of WTBS which is virtually worthless to show anything about the Trinity. This supposed edition is more than 50 years old and cannot be verified in any way. If the WTBS leaders had quoted a current edition of Colliers which can be verified at almost any library it might have some merit.

So it is the interpretation of some , not from Jesus and his direct followers this is from pagan influences.And came to Christianity at a later time.

Blatantly false anti-Christian rhetoric from WTBS with NO, ZERO, NONE evidence. Repeating this over and over and over does NOT make it true no matter how hard you want it to be.

There were triads of gods, and among their divinities were those representing various forces of nature and ones that exercised special influence in certain activities of mankind. (Babylonian and Assyrian Religion, Norman, Okla.; 1963, S. H. Hooke, pp. 14-40)

A book by some unknown dood printed in 1963, with NO evidence from the time of Babylon or the early church is NOT evidence for anything.

The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. This was not a new idea, it goes back into Babylonian, religions.

This is absolutely no evidence about the Christian Trinity. It is a bunch of mumbo-jumbo about the Platonic Trinity, with no source identified. Then whoever wrote this nonsense says it "appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches." Whatr some unknown dood thinks something appears to be is NOT evidence for anything.

This is also part of the belief regarding death: “Neither the people nor the leaders of religious thought [in Babylon] ever faced the possibility of the total annihilation of what once was called into existence. Death was a passage to another kind of life.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, p. 556.

Position of the priesthood: “The distinction between priest and layman is characteristic of this [Babylonian] religion.”—Encyclopædia Britannica (1948), Vol. 2, p. 861.

Neither of these say anything about a Trinity.

The cross for instance, is also pagan, it comes from the Sun God that the Gauls, or Romans, worshiped. And is also part of sex worship.
The Non-Christian Cross by John Denham Parsons - Project Gutenberg

A book written by some unknown dood, in 2005, probably a JW, with NO, ZERO, NONE historical evidence of any kind! Unless this dood has historical evidence dating from the time of Babylon, and the early church this book is worthless as evidence for the cross.

 

[it'sme]

This is not just from us, this is from many publications about when this became formally into Christendom. The bible itself, does not support a trinity type of idea. Even Jesus , and Paul warned against independent thinking by some that were around at that time. This is the same for celebrations of Christmas, Easter, Halloween etc. These all have been introduced into Christendom, from pagan ideas. Even the world knows this becasue every year when this come around the origins of these holidays are explained. This is exactly what the Jewish religious leaders and people were cast off by Jesus for, worshiping the ideas of man ( traditions) instead of God.
But the leaders in Jesus time would not listen to him, instead they killed him. Jesus was telling them the truth, but they did not want truth, they wanted the life style they built up for themselves. So when people hear truth but reject that, why is it they don't listen to it. After all it is truth! It is because their heart is wanting something else. That is why the bible says few will find it. Even ones that have a form of Godly devotion Jesus rejected. Jehovah does not just accept any knowledge, about him, it has to be truth. clean of any pagan ideas.
I am not going to force anything on anyone, people have to make up their own mind.

 

[Der Alte]

This is not just from us, this is from many publications about when this became formally into Christendom.

Then why don't you do some reading and research on your own and find some of these publications and quote from them, instead of copy/pasting everything from WTBS writings?

The bible itself, does not support a trinity type of idea. Even Jesus , and Paul warned against independent thinking by some that were around at that time.

The Bible clearly supports that the Father is God, but he is not the son or the spirit. The Son is God, but he is not the Father or the spirit. The Spirit is God, but he is not the son or the Father Anyone who is willing to read the Bible instead of letting unknown people at WTBS dictate to them what they must believe, know that. Merely saying "independent thinking" over and over and over does NOT prove anything ! I notice that once again you ignored the fact that you quoted false anti-Christian rhetoric from WTBS!

This is the same for celebrations of Christmas, Easter, Halloween etc. These all have been introduced into Christendom, from pagan ideas.

Just repeating WTBS anti-Christian rhetoric over and over and over. Christmas celebrates the birth of Christ. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with anything pagan! Many Christians now avoid using the name "Easter" because so many people object. I prefer Resurrection Sunday myself. Resurrection Sunday celebrates the Resurrection Jesus. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with anything pagan! Halloween is NOT a Christian practice! I don't care what its origins are!

Even the world knows this becasue every year when this come around the origins of these holidays are explained. This is exactly what the Jewish religious leaders and people were cast off by Jesus for, worshiping the ideas of man ( traditions) instead of God.
But the leaders in Jesus time would not listen to him, instead they killed him. Jesus was telling them the truth, but they did not want truth, they wanted the life style they built up for themselves. So when people hear truth but reject that, why is it they don't listen to it. After all it is truth! It is because their heart is wanting something else. That is why the bible says few will find it.

A lot of empty, irrelevant rhetoric which is not relevant to this topic and does NOT address anything I have posted, specifically.

Even ones that have a form of Godly devotion Jesus rejected. Jehovah does not just accept any knowledge, about him, it has to be truth. clean of any pagan ideas.
I am not going to force anything on anyone, people have to make up their own mind.

If you can produce an credible, verifiable, historical evidence from a source not associated with WTBS, that you have personally read, for yourself, let me know. You talk about people making up their own mind. That would be good advice for you. I have pointed out errors, mistakes, and falsehoods in most of the stuff you quote from the WTBS but you ignore it and continue to quote more and more stuff from them. That is NOT making up your own mind! That is being loyal to a man made organization no matter what, no matter how many times they are proven to be wrong.

 

[it'sme]

The Bible clearly supports that the Father is God, but he is not the son or the spirit. The Son is God, but he is not the Father or the spirit. The Spirit is God, but he is not the son or the Father Anyone who is willing to read the Bible instead of letting unknown people at WTBS dictate to them what they must believe, know that. Merely saying "independent thinking" over and over and over does NOT prove anything ! I notice that once again you ignored the fact that you quoted false anti-Christian rhetoric from WTBS!

Did you read what you said here.
You said the Father is God. that is correct
but he is not the son or the spirit. This is also correct

Then you said the Son is God, I'm not sure what you mean here because you said the Father is God, but then you said the Son is not the Father or spirit. This is correct if you think the (Jesus) is a God but not the same God as the Father .
Then you said The Spirit is God, but in the first statement you said the Father is God, but he is not the son or the spirit. ( I'm assuming you meant the son (Jesus) and the spirit (as the Holy Spirit.) and (he Father as Jehovah)

So this last statement is a contradiction of the first, when you said the Father is not the Son or the spirit.
Der Alter this is not hard to understand, we were created to know who God is, and we were created in his likeness in that we can reason and understand and create and are spiritual. But we are not 3 entities in one.
This comes from the mysteries of false religions of Babylon.
Jesus was Gods Son because Jehovah created him as the first creation. That is why Jesus is the begotten , or firstborn, and a mediator between God and man. Jesus himself said that he was God's Son and Jesus even prayed to his Father. These are all things that we were created to understand. The ransom that Jesus fulfilled, only is any good if you understand the Jesus was God's Son and not Jehovah. The taunt that Satan put in front of Jehovah was that no man would serve Him out of loyalty. So if Jesus was Jehovah then the ransom is unified,because the question was not the God would be loyal to himself, but that Gods creation would be loyal to God. That is why Jehovah sent Jesus to the earth.

 

[Der Alte]

Did you read what you said here.
You said the Father is God. that is correct
but he is not the son or the spirit. This is also correct

Then you said the Son is God, I'm not sure what you mean here because you said the Father is God, but then you said the Son is not the Father or spirit. This is correct if you think the (Jesus) is a God but not the same God as the Father .
Then you said The Spirit is God, but in the first statement you said the Father is God, but he is not the son or the spirit. ( I'm assuming you meant the son (Jesus) and the spirit (as the Holy Spirit.) and (he Father as Jehovah)

So this last statement is a contradiction of the first, when you said the Father is not the Son or the spirit.
[ . . . ] Irrelevant WTBS anti-Chrtistian rhetoric SNIPPED

Here are scriptural truths I have posted before, without any so-called unscriptural words or man made doctrines.

1. There is one God! The Father is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Father is not the Son or the Spirit. Numerous vss. e.g., John 6:27, Gal 1:1, Gal 1:3, Eph 6:23, Philippians 2:11, 1 Thess 1:1, 2 Tim 1:2, Titus 1:4, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:17, et. al.

2. There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit.

[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[3] Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

[10] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

[11] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

[12] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

[17] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

[18] Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he [God] hath purchased with his own blood.

[19] Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[21] Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

[31] Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

[36] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.​

3. There is one God! The Holy Spirit is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Spirit is not the Father or the Son. Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27, Heb 3:7-11, Heb 10:15-17.

There is one God! The Father, the Son, and the Spirit, all three are called/ referred to as God, in scripture, but each has a distinct mind, will, and self; John 16:13, 1 Cor 12:11, Philippians 2:5, John 5:26, Rom 8:27, Matthew 26:39.

Scripture which identify the Holy Spirit as God

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.​

This passage, Act 5:3-4, identifies the Holy Spirit as God by equating lying to the H.S. with lying to God.

Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.​

This passage Act 28:25-27, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying the H.S. spoke words which were spoken by YHWH, in Isa 6:8-10, below.

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, [יהוה/YHWH] saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed

Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. [O.T. see יהוה/YHWH, Jer 31:33-34]​

This passage, Heb 10:15-17, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying words spoken by YHWH, in Jer 31:33-34, below, were spoken by the H.S.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, [יהוה/YHWH] I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. [O.T. יהוה/YHWH, Ps 95:10]
11[/b] So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) [O.T. יהוה/YHWH, Deu 1:34-35]​

This passage identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying words spoken by YHWH in Psa 95:10-11, and Deu 1:34-35, below.

Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

Deu 1:34 And the LORD [יהוה/YHWH] heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying,
35 Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers,​

 

[it'sme]

Here are scriptural truths I have posted before, without any so-called unscriptural words or man made doctrines.

The understanding of who Jesus is, and Jehovah, and what the Holy spirit is is explained in the bible. Jesus was a perfect representative of his Father Jehovah. He is also the image of his Father( which means just like). The early follwers of Jesus , did not think he was Jehovah, they knew Jesus as Jehovah's Son, that ws sent to the earth. The ransom that Jesus did proved to Satan that one of Jehovah's creation would be loyal to Jehovah. What point is it if Jehovah is loyal to himself? That would not have satisfied Satan. Nor would being a mediator if Jehovah was the mediator for himself. A mediator is the third party. That is why the bible says that two witnesses can settle a matter. ( that was in Jewish law, that Jehovah gave to them) Jehovah was one witness and Jesus was the other.

Deuteronomy 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses or of three witnesses the one dying should be put to death. He will not be put to death at the mouth of one witness.


John 8:12 Therefore Jesus spoke again to them, saying: “I am the light of the world. He that follows me will by no means walk in darkness, but will possess the light of life.” 13 Hence the Pharisees said to him: “You bear witness about yourself; your witness is not true.” 14 In answer Jesus said to them: “Even if I do bear witness about myself, my witness is true, because I know where I came from and where I am going. But YOU do not know where I came from and where I am going. 15 YOU judge according to the flesh; I do not judge any man at all. 16 And yet if I do judge, my judgment is truthful, because I am not alone, but the Father who sent me is with me. 17 Also, in YOUR own Law it is written, ‘The witness of two men is true.’ 18 I am one that bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.” 19 Therefore they went on to say to him: “Where is your Father?” Jesus answered: “YOU know neither me nor my Father. If YOU did know me, YOU would know my Father also.” 20 These sayings he spoke in the treasury as he was teaching in the temple. But no one laid hold of him, because his hour had not yet come.

Jesus here plainly says that his witness is true because it is not just from him, but from his Father as well. So that makes two witnesses.
It was the religious leaders of Jesus day that were trying to find something to do away with Jesus. They did not , or didn't want to know who God was.
This supports the reason Jesus death was valid and the ransom. Because Jesus was a creation of Jehovah's, as his Son, that any of this is valid.
So the understanding of the scriptures you quoted have to agree with this, but the influence of the pagan idea of a trinity is in direct contradiction of this.

 

[Der Alte]

The understanding of who Jesus is, and Jehovah, and what the Holy spirit is is explained in the bible. [ . . . ]
So the understanding of the scriptures you quoted have to agree with this, but the influence of the pagan idea of a trinity is in direct contradiction of this.

I posted forty (40) scriptures, you ignored them and posted two passages as if those two verses somehow prove anything about the verses I posted. And once again you repeating "The Trinity is pagan." I have asked you many times for evidence from the time of Babylon, or any any pre-Christian pagan religion that had a "Trinity", one deity somehow manifesting as one, or even a "Triad," three deities functioning in unison influencing the affairs of mankind. There is no such evidence. There has never been any ancient society, which could have influenced the early church, that had a "Trinity" or a "Triad." It does NOT matter if you post 10,000 articles written by anonymous men in the WTBS.

 

[it'sme]

I posted forty (40) scriptures, you ignored them and posted two passages as if those two verses somehow prove anything about the verses I posted. And once again you repeating "The Trinity is pagan." I have asked you many times for evidence from the time of Babylon, or any any pre-Christian pagan religion that had a "Trinity", one deity somehow manifesting as one, or even a "Triad," three deities functioning in unison influencing the affairs of mankind. There is no such evidence. There has never been any ancient society, which could have influenced the early church, that had a "Trinity" or a "Triad." It does NOT matter if you post 10,000 articles written by anonymous men in the WTBS.

The 40 scriptures you quoted do not say Jesus and Jehovah are the same person. Also the 40 scriptures have to fit with the rest of the bible, no contradictions. It is really God who does the interpretation for us.
I know that most will not listen, and don't want it, but some might.

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

In The Encyclopedia Americana we read: “Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.

And the teaching of the trinity, is not in the bible. The influence of a trinity was from Babylonian pagan teachings.
The Pharisees were just the same they wanted to keep their own ideas, (and the bible says they were a sti,ff necked people) and that truth was not in them. So the evidence is there but not everyone will learn from it.

 

[Der Alte]

The 40 scriptures you quoted do not say Jesus and Jehovah are the same person. Also the 40 scriptures have to fit with the rest of the bible, no contradictions. It is really God who does the interpretation for us.
I know that most will not listen, and don't want it, but some might.

Then why don't you go through all the verses I quoted and show how they should be interpreted so they do not contradict other scripture and also do NOT ignore what the scriptures clearly says.

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.

You said something before about making up your own mind. But what we have here is another copy/paste from your WTBS library CD, and again as always, it is FALSE! Here is the full quote showing what the anonymous men at WTBS deliberately left out trying to make the encyclopedia says what they wanted it to. Your quote shown in blue.

"Trinity, the doctrine of God taught by Christianity that asserts that God is one in essence but three in "person," Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: "Hear, 0 Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord" (Deut. 6:4). The earliest Christians, however, had to cope with the implications of the coming of Jesus Christ and of the presence and power of God among them-i.e., the Holy Spirit, whose coming was connected with the celebration of the Pentecost. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were associated in such New Testament passages as the Great Commission: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them mi the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19); and in the apostolic benediction: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all" (II Cor. 13:14). Thus, the New Testament established the basis for the doctrine of the Trinity. The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. Initially, both the requirements of monotheism inherited from the Old Testament and the implications of the need to interpret the biblical teaching to Greco-Roman paganism seemed to demand that the divine in Christ as the Word, or Logos, be interpreted as subordinate to the Supreme Being. An alternative solution was to interpret Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three modes of the self-disclosure of the one God but not as distinct within the being of God itself. The first tendency recognized the distinctness among the three, but at the cost of their equality and hence of their unity (subordinationism); the second came to terms with their unity, but at the cost of their distinctness 'as "persons" (modalism). It was not until the 4th century that the distinctness of the three and their unity were brought together in a single orthodox doctrine of one essence and three persons. The Council of Nicaea in 325 stated the crucial formula for that doctrine in its confession that the Son is "of the same essence [homoousios] as the Father," even though it said very little about the Holy Spirit. Over the next half century, Athanasius defended and refined the Nicene formula, and, by the end of the 4th century, under the leadership of Basil of Caesarea, Gregory of Nyssa, and Gregory of Nazianzus (the Cappadocian Fathers), the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since." (Encyclopedia Britannica, 1979, Trinity, Vol. X, p.126)​

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality[/COLOR] or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

Here is the complete quote showing what your leaders deliberately left out and which you accept without question or critical thinking process. Anything the WTBS tells you, no matter how absurd, you believe. Your quote shown in blue.

"Question of Continuity and Elemental Trinitarianism: From what has been seen thus far, the impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th-century invention. In a sense, this is true; but it implies an extremely strict interpretation of the key words Trinitarian and dogma. Triadic Consciousness in the Primitive Revelation. The formulation "one God in three Persons" was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective; among the 2d-century Apologists, little more than a focusing of the problem as that of plurality within the unique Godhead. ... From the vocabulary and grammar of the Greek original, the intention of the hagiographer to communicate singleness of essence in three distinct Persons was easily derived. ... If it is clear on one side that the dogma of the Trinity in the stricter sense of the word was a late arrival, product of 3 centuries' reflection and debate, it is just as clear on the opposite side that confession of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit-and hence an elemental Trinitarianism-went back to the period of Christian origins. (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1965, Trinity, p299-300)​

In The Encyclopedia Americana [ . . . ]—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.

I already addressed this. Repeating false anti-Christian rhetoric which has been refuted does NOT make it true.

And the teaching of the trinity, is not in the bible. The influence of a trinity was from Babylonian pagan teachings.

Repeating vicious, WTBS, anti-Christian rhetoric about pagan Trinities does NOT make it true. Every time you make this false accusation and refuse, or are unable, to produce any credible evidence, you prove absolutely nothing about true Christianity but every accusation without evidence proves over and over how phony the WTBS is.

Here are twenty six (26) more passages from the O.T. which refer to יהוה/YHWH, paired with verses in the N.T. which identify Jesus as יהוה/YHWH

[1] Isa 40:3 ¶ The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD [יהוה], make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

N.T. reference.
Matt 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. [Mk 1:3, Lk 3:4, John 1:23]

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
[2] Ps 8:1 ¶ <<To the chief Musician upon Gittith, A Psalm of David.>> O LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

N.T. reference.
Matt 21:15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,
16 And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

[3] Ps 68:18 You have ascended on high; you have carried away captives; you have taken gifts in the form of men, Yes, even the stubborn ones, to reside among them, O Jah God." ("Jah" is an abbreviated form of the name Jehovah.)

N.T. reference.
Eph 4:7-10: "Now to each one of us undeserved kindness was given according to how the Christ measured out the free gift. Wherefore he says: 'When he ascended on high he carried away captives; he gave gifts in men.' Now the expression 'he ascended,' what does it mean but that he also descended into the lower regions, that is, the earth? The very one that descended is also the one that ascended far above all the heavens, that he might give fulness to all things."

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
[4] Mal 3:1 ¶ Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492; ] of hosts.

N.T. reference.
Luk 1:76 And thou, child, [John] shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord [Jesus] to prepare his ways;

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
[5] Isa 10:33 Behold, the Lord, the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] of hosts, shall lop the bough with terror: and the high ones of stature shall be hewn down, and the haughty shall be humbled.

N.T. reference.
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

[6] Isa 49:23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;]: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.

N.T. reference.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him [the Lord Jesus vs. 9] shall not be ashamed.

1 Pet 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

[7] Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] shall call.

N.T. reference.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord [Jesus vs. 9] shall be saved.
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

[8] Isa 45:23 I [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492; vs. 21, 24] have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

N.T. reference.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, [Christ, vs. 10] every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Philip 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

Continued in next post.

 

[Der Alte]

[9] Jer 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth:for in these things I delight, saith the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] .

N.T. reference.
1 Cor 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. [Christ, vs. 30]
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

[10] Num 16:5 And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.

N.T. reference.
2 Tim 2:19 ¶ Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

[11] Ps 130:8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

N.T. reference.
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
[12] Ps 97:7 Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols: worship him, all ye gods.

N.T. reference.
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

[13] Ps 45:6 ¶ Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

N.T. reference.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

[14] Ps 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end

[15] Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation [&#1497;&#1513;&#1473;&#1493;&#1506;&#1492;] /Yeshuah] shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

N.T. reference.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, [[Jesus/&#1497;&#1513;&#1473;&#1493;&#1506;] /Yeshua, vss. 2, 5, 8, 9] in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
[16] Ps 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

N.T. reference.
1 Pet 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
[17] Isa 8:13 Sanctify the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.

N.T. reference.
1 Pet 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: [Christ, vs. 16]
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

[18] Zech 12:10 And I [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

N.T. reference.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

[19] Jer 17:10 I the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

N.T. reference.
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
[20] Ps 62:12 Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

[21] Isa 40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

[22]Isa 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] the first, and with the last; I am he.

[23]Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

[24]Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

[25] Isa 62:11 Behold, the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation [&#1497;&#1513;&#1493;&#1506;&#1492;/Yeshuah] cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

N.T. reference.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, (Isa 40:10, 62:11), to give every man according as his work (Ps 62:12, 34:8) shall be.
13 I [Jesus/&#1497;&#1513;&#1493;&#1506;/Yeshua] am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. (Isa 41:4, 44:6, 48:12)
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
[26] Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. . .
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

N.T. reference.
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. (Is 6:10)
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. (Isa 6:1)​

 

[it'sme]

All of those scriptures you quoted here confirm that Jesus is God's Son and that he was the first creation of Jehovah.

You quoted Isaiah 48:12

(Isaiah 48:12) “Listen to me, O Jacob, and you Israel my called one. I am the same One. I am the first. Moreover, I am the last.

The bible tells us who that is

Isaiah 44: 6 “This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God

Isaiah 43:10 “YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. 11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”
12 “I myself have told forth and have saved and have caused [it] to be heard, when there was among YOU no strange [god]. So YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “and I am God. 13 Also, all the time I am the same One; and there is no one effecting deliverance out of my own hand. I shall get active, and who can turn it back?”

 

[Der Alte]

All of those scriptures you quoted here confirm that Jesus is God's Son and that he was the first creation of Jehovah. [ . . . ]

Please address my posts don't just keep throwing WTBS doctrine at me. Read my post again each OT passage is followed by a NT verse where the OT passage is applied to Jesus in the NT. And NONE of the OT vss. say anything about God's son being created.

 

[it'sme]

Please address my posts don't just keep throwing WTBS doctrine at me. Read my post again each OT passage is followed by a NT verse where the OT passage is applied to Jesus in the NT. And NONE of the OT vss. say anything about God's son being created.

Jesus was the representative of Jehovah, he was his Son.
But in John 20: 17 Jesus himself tells us who he is.

(John 20:17) Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’”

Jesus has a God, and father. This was after he was resurrected by Jehovah.
But, by virtue of his being the sole direct creation of his Father, the firstborn Son was unique, different from all others of God’s sons, all of whom were created or begotten by Jehovah through that firstborn Son. So “the Word” was Jehovah’s “only-begotten Son” .


You don't have to listen to me, but at least give Jesus words, some consideration.

 

[FredVB]

Hello all. Thank you, Der Alter, for all that work, and posting the information about the encyclopedic quotes unreliably used by WTBS and uncritically copied. I would not otherwise know about them, although I use the Bible to make valid argument. it'sme, with due respect, you have been going in circles using the same arguments that I have been dealing with using scriptural basis and you persist without acknowledging my counter argument. You have been hung up especially with this idea that, as a human son has a beginning, so the only begotten Son of God must have a beginning, even though I have pointed out, without response from you, that all orthodox Christian teaching involving this matter is explained with the understanding that the Son of God is such by the true meaning that he is the incarnation of God as a human being. He clearly preexisted, but he was not begotten until the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us. Nothing in scripture actually says he had a beginning or was created, and I have pointed out misused scripture, such as using words added to translations not in the texts that are translated from, or using what is clearly a personification of wisdom.

it'sme, I have also already dealt with the idea that Jesus came as an example to Satan, and to show obedience to God. That was not really it by itself, you can see my previous response. And for that purpose, it is understandable that God came for us.

I would also say, it'sme, that you do not have a realistic chance of always coming to the truth if you will keep relying on uncritical use of what your congregation provides for you to argue with and act on. You have not shown that you will really look at the Bible and do your own thinking from that.

I have not focused on your disagreement with the idea of trinity. But you were saying there is "not 3 entities in one. This comes from the mysteries of false religions of Babylon." I too, as Der Alter has tried to do, tell you that you have not been able to name one actual case from Babylonian or any religion that could have influenced Christianity having any instance of "3 entities in one". It has already been shown and you can see it if you look that there already is a scriptural basis for 3 in one God to start with, and so it is not a matter of pagan influence, those who believe in trinity find it based on all these passages.

 

[it'sme]

Hello all. Thank you, Der Alter, for all that work, and posting the information about the encyclopedic quotes unreliably used by WTBS and uncritically copied. I would not otherwise know about them, although I use the Bible to make valid argument. it'sme, with due respect, you have been going in circles using the same arguments that I have been dealing with using scriptural basis and you persist without acknowledging my counter argument. You have been hung up especially with this idea that, as a human son has a beginning, so the only begotten Son of God must have a beginning, even though I have pointed out, without response from you, that all orthodox Christian teaching involving this matter is explained with the understanding that the Son of God is such by the true meaning that he is the incarnation of God as a human being. He clearly preexisted, but he was not begotten until the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us. Nothing in scripture actually says he had a beginning or was created, and I have pointed out misused scripture, such as using words added to translations not in the texts that are translated from, or using what is clearly a personification of wisdom.

it'sme, I have also already dealt with the idea that Jesus came as an example to Satan, and to show obedience to God. That was not really it by itself, you can see my previous response. And for that purpose, it is understandable that God came for us.

I would also say, it'sme, that you do not have a realistic chance of always coming to the truth if you will keep relying on uncritical use of what your congregation provides for you to argue with and act on. You have not shown that you will really look at the Bible and do your own thinking from that.

I have not focused on your disagreement with the idea of trinity. But you were saying there is "not 3 entities in one. This comes from the mysteries of false religions of Babylon." I too, as Der Alter has tried to do, tell you that you have not been able to name one actual case from Babylonian or any religion that could have influenced Christianity having any instance of "3 entities in one". It has already been shown and you can see it if you look that there already is a scriptural basis for 3 in one God to start with, and so it is not a matter of pagan influence, those who believe in trinity find it based on all these passages.

Hi Fred it sounds like you are shutting down our conversation. but that's OK. If your not that's OK too. I was only giving people a chance to decide for themselves, what they believe. Just so that they can't say they didn't have an opportunity, at least to hear, this good news.
There is no point in pushing something on someone if they don't want it.
I feel bad though because the really interesting information comes in Daniel and Revelation , and you can't get what it is saying there, without understanding , the basics, about Jehovah and Jesus, and the other basic teachings. Sometimes when you look at other passages in the bible it clears up the thinking about other passages and understandings.
But I do respect the provision Jehovah gave man of freedom of choice.
Anyway I enjoyed our conversation.

 

[Der Alte]

Hi Fred it sounds like you are shutting down our conversation. but that's OK. If your not that's OK too. I was only giving people a chance to decide for themselves, what they believe. Just so that they can't say they didn't have an opportunity, at least to hear, this good news.
There is no point in pushing something on someone if they don't want it.
I feel bad though because the really interesting information comes in Daniel and Revelation , and you can't get what it is saying there, without understanding , the basics, about Jehovah and Jesus, and the other basic teachings. Sometimes when you look at other passages in the bible it clears up the thinking about other passages and understandings.
But I do respect the provision Jehovah gave man of freedom of choice.
Anyway I enjoyed our conversation.

I have been hoping this topic would get revived. I have been asking for, at least, nine years on this forum for credible, verifiable, historical evidence for any thing resembling a Trinity in the religion of Babylon. That would be three deities somehow manifesting as one. Or even a Triad, that would be three separate deities functioning in unison, affecting the affairs of mankind. And I have never seen any such evidence. While I was engrossed in something else last night, I realized that in our Bibles we have four books which were written from Babylon, during the Jewish captivity, Daniel, Ezekiel, Ezra, and Nehemiah. There are mentions of the Babylonian deities but there is NOT one reference to a Trinity or a Triad.