He Comes With Clouds

[it'sme]

MarkRohfrietsch, Sorry I missed why you included a video?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

MarkRohfrietsch, Sorry I missed why you included a video?

I was just lurking, and it's a beautiful Hymn, which paraphrases the Scripture quoted in the post.

 

[it'sme]

I was just lurking, and it's a beautiful Hymn, which paraphrases the Scripture quoted in the post.

OK

 

[FredVB]

You post a great amount, to which a response would be even longer. To make a quick reply, I will skip the discussion on trinity, unless I go to it later, and as it diverts even more from the thread, it would probably be a separate one.

The Colossians passage does not especially make your point, you say,

>We say today, he is the spitting image of his father.
That doesn't mean he is his father. it means he is just like his father. That is why Jesus is the image of Jehovah.

This interpretation is not required by Bible passages. The Father is father to the Son by virtue of Jesus the Son being the incarnation of the self-existent invisible God. They are distinct indeed, this is how there is communication between them. But Jesus can rightfully and completely truthfully say that he and the Father are One, a thing that can not be said of another father and son, and certainly not of God and an angel or angelic being sent By God as a man. It is already shown that Jesus is Creator, and there are not two beings that are Creators of all Creation.

And for this: "If you come to any other conclusion that Jesus is Jehovah's Son, then the scriptures are full of contradictions. John 20:17 for instance.
Man did not kill God they killed Gods Son.
The scriptures even say that no man has seen God at anytime. But Jesus has explained him."

That is not established that the position I have been speaking for leaves contradictions in scriptures. I think it is clear that it follows logic, but I can make it even more clear. A misunderstanding of death and killing might make it seem that this position means that God was dead meaning no longer existing. But death in scripture does not mean cessation of a spirit's existence, but separation, including separation of spirit from body. Jesus, who as I mentioned is said to have been with God and was God, and from whom all things have their being, said at the last on the cross, where he bore the penalty for sins that no mere creature could, "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit." He still existed, without his body that for the time had expired, as he had without body before the incarnation. It was specifically the incarnation of God that men killed, and only because Jesus willingly laid down his life.

When I said:
The passage from Proverbs cannot be clearly referring to the Lord Jesus, and there is common consensus that the reference is to a personification of wisdom
you were provided a gracious way out without my saying more to that. The version you are really trying to make your point on you do not really identify as to what version it is. But I will have to say now that in looking to the beginning of that chapter, the reference is not to Jesus, that is not said, but to wisdom, clearly said, and if an argument is to be made that this is an actual person because of being spoken as a person, by the same logic this person must be female, as so spoken of in these passages. But of course it is sensibly seen as a personification, as is done elsewhere in the Bible.

There is only one God, Jesus is not another as a creature, and this can be seen more fully established.

I hope you will truly look at the Bible and what it says on these things, and keep in mind that it should not be overridden by what would be said from one's congregation. A congregation might be wrong, however disagreeable it may be to contemplate that, but the Bible, never. I say these things without hostility, but in the spirit of a charitable dialogue, as things that should be discussed. It is good that we agree that Jesus is returning.

If you can, find Christian Tribe of Yahweh, at yahoo groups.

 

[it'sme]

You post a great amount, to which a response would be even longer. To make a quick reply, I will skip the discussion on trinity, unless I go to it later, and as it diverts even more from the thread, it would probably be a separate one.

The Colossians passage does not especially make your point, you say,

>We say today, he is the spitting image of his father.
That doesn't mean he is his father. it means he is just like his father. That is why Jesus is the image of Jehovah.

This interpretation is not required by Bible passages. The Father is father to the Son by virtue of Jesus the Son being the incarnation of the self-existent invisible God. They are distinct indeed, this is how there is communication between them. But Jesus can rightfully and completely truthfully say that he and the Father are One, a thing that can not be said of another father and son, and certainly not of God and an angel or angelic being sent By God as a man. It is already shown that Jesus is Creator, and there are not two beings that are Creators of all Creation.

And for this: "If you come to any other conclusion that Jesus is Jehovah's Son, then the scriptures are full of contradictions. John 20:17 for instance.
Man did not kill God they killed Gods Son.
The scriptures even say that no man has seen God at anytime. But Jesus has explained him."

That is not established that the position I have been speaking for leaves contradictions in scriptures. I think it is clear that it follows logic, but I can make it even more clear. A misunderstanding of death and killing might make it seem that this position means that God was dead meaning no longer existing. But death in scripture does not mean cessation of a spirit's existence, but separation, including separation of spirit from body. Jesus, who as I mentioned is said to have been with God and was God, and from whom all things have their being, said at the last on the cross, where he bore the penalty for sins that no mere creature could, "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit." He still existed, without his body that for the time had expired, as he had without body before the incarnation. It was specifically the incarnation of God that men killed, and only because Jesus willingly laid down his life.

When I said:
The passage from Proverbs cannot be clearly referring to the Lord Jesus, and there is common consensus that the reference is to a personification of wisdom
you were provided a gracious way out without my saying more to that. The version you are really trying to make your point on you do not really identify as to what version it is. But I will have to say now that in looking to the beginning of that chapter, the reference is not to Jesus, that is not said, but to wisdom, clearly said, and if an argument is to be made that this is an actual person because of being spoken as a person, by the same logic this person must be female, as so spoken of in these passages. But of course it is sensibly seen as a personification, as is done elsewhere in the Bible.

There is only one God, Jesus is not another as a creature, and this can be seen more fully established.

I hope you will truly look at the Bible and what it says on these things, and keep in mind that it should not be overridden by what would be said from one's congregation. A congregation might be wrong, however disagreeable it may be to contemplate that, but the Bible, never. I say these things without hostility, but in the spirit of a charitable dialogue, as things that should be discussed. It is good that we agree that Jesus is returning.

If you can, find Christian Tribe of Yahweh, at yahoo groups.

The bible says even man is made in God's image.
Genesis 1:26 And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.

You notice in this scripture the wording is 'us' and 'our' the 'image'
Well first of all we are not spirit creatures we are physical humans. So this means that we are the image of Jehovah and Jesus, not physically but in a spiritual sense. We think like Jehovah ( though we are just humans and imperfect). We understand what a Son is, we also understand what creation is. So this wording is for our benefit. So using 'our' means more than one. We are also told the Jesus is the firstborn, of creation. We also know what a firstborn is. If parents have a first child , we call it their firstborn. This is the same wording in the bible. and Jesus sticks with that in the bible. He calls himself God's Son.
Because we think in the same way as God we understand these words. The bible also says we do not think, Gods thoughts. So is this a contradiction? No. The bible says we think bad thoughts all the time. And we are imperfect. We also think about ourselves first, where God is thinking about all people. But we still understand what firstborn means and what a Son is.
Besides this idea of a trinity is pagan, it is known when it came into Christianity , and it is known it was pagan long before Christianity.
Jesus himself says after he was resurrected that he was going to his God.

(John 20:17) Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’”

So if you don't believe me , believe what Jesus says.
Besides thinking any other way makes the bible invalid.


Now on death,the bible does say what death is.

Gen. 3:19: “In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
Eccl. 9:10: “All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol [“the grave,” KJ, Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV], the place to which you are going.”

There is even no thinking in death, it is just non existence.


Eccl. 9:5: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.”
Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts [“thoughts,” KJ, 145:4 in Dy; “all his thinking,” NE; “plans,” RS, NAB] do perish.”


Ezek. 18:4: “The soul [“soul,” RS, NE, KJ, Dy, Kx; “man,” JB; “person,” TEV] that is sinning—it itself will die.”
Isa. 53:12: “He poured out his soul [“soul,” RS, KJ, Dy; “life,” TEV; “himself,” JB, Kx, NAB] to the very death.” (Compare Matthew 26:38.)
See also the main headings “Soul” and “Spirit.”

Jesus was the first resurrection to heaven, so all the faithful ones before Jesus were not tormented some place.
Adam and Eve were never meant to die. So why would there be a need for a spirit life, after death. There was none. If Jehovah wanted more spirit creatures, why not just create more. Jehovah's purpose for man was to fill the earth and live on it forever, with no death. Jehovah's purpose for man has not changed. We are a soul and spirit , there is nothing that leaves the body at death. The bible says that when we died we are the same as the animals.
The only thing that gives us a chance to live forever is God's memory, and that he will resurrect those ones.

 

[FredVB]

I have had discussions like this in the past, and am cautious in pursuing this one here. What might come of it is a long back and forth of each of us posting to each other verses that support our argument. And whoever post the most Bible passages that supports his position wins!? Bible passages do not really line up in sets and play two sides of issues with each other. They are all consistent, and a way to find out how they are must be an approach to our learning from the Bible. So it will not profit to keep throwing verses to each other, which I can assure you, seeing where this discussion has been going, I have seen and dealt with before. And yes, I can come with more passages that establish Jesus is who I said he is than any that can be used for countering that. But if this long process were necessarily pursued, I must ask why, when I at the first gave passages that absolutely establish that Jesus is Yahweh, and you gave no evidence that you looked at those passages, in context, which includes Zechariah chapter 12. I have seen several translations, it amounts to the same thing, but I have seen you use a translation, which you do not identify, and I have not looked at, not saying things quite the same. By the way, I have an edition with the original Greek text, too, and can see if any word of a translation has been added to what was originally written. If you look Zechariah 12 up, and you do not find that Yahweh is pierced and will do what in the new testament passages Jesus, who is pierced in what scripture tells us fulfills what was said of Yahweh, will do, than tell me what you did find in your translation, but then you should identify what it is. But I hope you will be honest, and to yourself too, if you find what I pointed out is true, and this is who Jesus is. It should mean a choice is to be made for the Bible, even if we come to a disagreement with our congregation, and in that case, hard though it may be, we might have to leave it and seek to be right with God, through Jesus Christ, and find the right congregation, church, or fellowship, that holds with the truth that was what could be found. My group would be good.

 

[it'sme]

I have had discussions like this in the past, and am cautious in pursuing this one here. What might come of it is a long back and forth of each of us posting to each other verses that support our argument. And whoever post the most Bible passages that supports his position wins!? Bible passages do not really line up in sets and play two sides of issues with each other. They are all consistent, and a way to find out how they are must be an approach to our learning from the Bible. So it will not profit to keep throwing verses to each other, which I can assure you, seeing where this discussion has been going, I have seen and dealt with before. And yes, I can come with more passages that establish Jesus is who I said he is than any that can be used for countering that. But if this long process were necessarily pursued, I must ask why, when I at the first gave passages that absolutely establish that Jesus is Yahweh, and you gave no evidence that you looked at those passages, in context, which includes Zechariah chapter 12. I have seen several translations, it amounts to the same thing, but I have seen you use a translation, which you do not identify, and I have not looked at, not saying things quite the same. By the way, I have an edition with the original Greek text, too, and can see if any word of a translation has been added to what was originally written. If you look Zechariah 12 up, and you do not find that Yahweh is pierced and will do what in the new testament passages Jesus, who is pierced in what scripture tells us fulfills what was said of Yahweh, will do, than tell me what you did find in your translation, but then you should identify what it is. But I hope you will be honest, and to yourself too, if you find what I pointed out is true, and this is who Jesus is. It should mean a choice is to be made for the Bible, even if we come to a disagreement with our congregation, and in that case, hard though it may be, we might have to leave it and seek to be right with God, through Jesus Christ, and find the right congregation, church, or fellowship, that holds with the truth that was what could be found. My group would be good.

Yes I understand what you are saying here. By just slinging scriptures back and froth. But at the same time the bible is Gods word for man. It was meant for man to understand. But it also is designed to give truth to ones that God wants to give it too.
The secret to understanding the bible comes from the attitude, of the reader and the willingness to let the bible interpret it's self.

The bible says there is not interpretation except by God ( it was inspired) But look at all the Christian religions, and different understandings.
There is a truth there and it is found in the bible. But most people ( even Christians) do not want it.

 

[FredVB]

it'sme, you wrote:

"Yes I understand what you are saying here. By just slinging scriptures back and froth. But at the same time the bible is Gods word for man. It was meant for man to understand ... it also is designed to give truth ...
The bible says there is not interpretation except by God ( it was inspired) But look at all the Christian religions, and different understandings.
There is a truth there and it is found in the bible. But most people ( even Christians) do not want it."

Thanks for that response. I agree, I see it too. The Bible completely holds to the truth, and our tendency is to somewhat filter Bible passages, if we are indeed reading the Bible, to what we have for a belief and what would be consistent with it, or with what our congregation says, or our parents, or ... whatever ...
What we should do is surrender our understanding to what is revealed in the scriptures, and take it allowing that what we read is faithful to what was originally written when it was revealed, without any regard to what we have come to believe that would contrast with it, or what we have been taught. I seek this and hope that you see fit to do the same. It is what I promote in approaching topics in my group. I hope you mention what you find with looking at the Zechariah passage and NT passages referring to it. I really think you might see the same thing I see about Yahweh. But if you find something else, I still want to see what your translation says, if you tell me what it is.

 

[it'sme]

Thanks for that response. I agree, I see it too. The Bible completely holds to the truth, and our tendency is to somewhat filter Bible passages, if we are indeed reading the Bible, to what we have for a belief and what would be consistent with it, or with what our congregation says, or our parents, or ... whatever ...
What we should do is surrender our understanding to what is revealed in the scriptures, and take it allowing that what we read is faithful to what was originally written when it was revealed, without any regard to what we have come to believe that would contrast with it, or what we have been taught. I seek this and hope that you see fit to do the same. It is what I promote in approaching topics in my group. I hope you mention what you find with looking at the Zechariah passage and NT passages referring to it. I really think you might see the same thing I see about Yahweh. But if you find something else, I still want to see what your translation says, if you tell me what it is.

I quoted the whole chapter becasue it wasn't that long. This is talking about Jehovah. Was there a particular verse or message that you were wondering about?
I answered a few things about the relationship of Jesus with Jehovah, and how the scriptures say it. if you are interested , please read the last few comment I made. It is here.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7421595-77/


(Zechariah 12:1-14) A pronouncement: “The word of Jehovah concerning Israel,” is the utterance of Jehovah, the One who is stretching out [the] heavens and laying the foundation of [the] earth and forming the spirit of man inside him. 2 “Here I am making Jerusalem a bowl [causing] reeling to all the peoples round about; and also against Judah he will come to be in the siege, [even] against Jerusalem. 3 And it must occur in that day [that] I shall make Jerusalem a burdensome stone to all the peoples. All those lifting it will without fail get severe scratches for themselves; and against her all the nations of the earth will certainly be gathered. 4 In that day,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “I shall strike every horse with bewilderment and its rider with madness; and upon the house of Judah I shall open my eyes, and every horse of the peoples I shall strike with loss of sight. 5 And the sheiks of Judah will have to say in their heart, ‘The inhabitants of Jerusalem are a strength to me by Jehovah of armies their God.’ 6 In that day I shall make the sheiks of Judah like a firepot among trees and like a fiery torch in a row of newly cut grain, and they must devour on the right [hand] and on the left all the peoples round about; and Jerusalem must yet be inhabited in her [own] place, in Jerusalem. 7 “And Jehovah will certainly save the tents of Judah first, to the end that the beauty of the house of David and the beauty of the inhabitants of Jerusalem may not become too great over Judah. 8 In that day Jehovah will be a defense around the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and the one that is stumbling among them must become in that day like David, and the house of David like God, like Jehovah’s angel before them. 9 And it must occur in that day [that] I shall seek to annihilate all the nations that are coming against Jerusalem. 10 “And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of favor and entreaties, and they will certainly look to the One whom they pierced through, and they will certainly wail over Him as in the wailing over an only [son]; and there will be a bitter lamentation over him as when there is bitter lamentation over the firstborn [son]. 11 In that day the wailing in Jerusalem will be great, like the wailing of Ha‧dad‧rim′mon in the valley plain of Me‧gid′do. 12 And the land will certainly wail, each family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself, and their women by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their women by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Le′vi by itself, and their women by themselves; the family of the Shim′e‧ites by itself, and their women by themselves; 14 all the families that are left remaining, each family by itself, and their women by themselves.

 

[FredVB]

You wrote: I quoted the whole chapter because it wasn't that long. This is talking about Jehovah. Was there a particular verse or message that you were wondering about?

I am sorry, I thought you would find in your translation what I have found. But it does read different. I wanted the whole context, because as you say, It is about Yahweh, and he is speaking. In verse 10, I would show you that Yahweh says, they will look on me whom they have pierced. It is this statement and the context that is referred to in several places in the new testament applying to Jesus. It reads this way in other translations, and I have seen many, but have not seen yours, which you still have not identified. Here is a sample of how Zechariah 12 v 10 reads in different translations:

King James Version:

10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


New King James Version:

10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn."

21st Century King James Version:

10And I will pour upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look upon Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him as one who is in bitterness for his firstborn.

American Standard Version:

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.

New American Standard Bible:

10"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn."

New International Version:

10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son."

Amplified Bible:

10And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace or unmerited favor and supplication. And they shall look [earnestly] upon Me Whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him as one who is in bitterness for his firstborn.

New Living Translation:

10 “Then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the family of David and on the people of Jerusalem. They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son. They will grieve bitterly for him as for a firstborn son who has died."

Young's Literal Translation:

10And I have poured on the house of David, And on the inhabitant of Jerusalem, A spirit of grace and supplications, And they have looked unto Me whom they pierced, And they have mourned over it, Like a mourning over the only one, And they have been in bitterness for it, Like a bitterness over the first-born.

Darby Translation:

10And I will pour upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and of supplications; and they shall look on me whom they pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for an only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

I would rather trust all the other Bible translations on this point. In doing so, it is undeniable that in Jesus is the fulfillment of the prophecies of Yahweh. Of course, there would remain, with nothing else known, the possibility as far as we know that your translation, which one I do not know yet, is right on this point, and all the other translations are wrong. But for various reasons I am sure that the problem is in your translation, and I would rather trust all the others on this point. And there are many passages confirming the nature of the Lord Jesus that I know of that are consistent with this.

 

[it'sme]

King James Version:

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

(Zechariah 12:10) “And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of favor and entreaties, and they will certainly look to the One whom they pierced through, and they will certainly wail over Him as in the wailing over an only [son]; and there will be a bitter lamentation over him as when there is bitter lamentation over the firstborn [son].NWT


To avoid what seems to be a piercing of Jehovah some of the later Hebrew manuscripts read “look upon him whom they have pierced”, rather than “look upon me whom they have pierced”.
At first these late Jewish manuscripts show this in the Keri, or corrected reading in the margin; but eventually in some manuscripts the change was brought up into the body of the text itself.
Rotherham’s translation, on the basis of these late manuscripts, offers in a footnote “him” as an acceptable reading in place of “me”. So does the American Standard Version.

Some modern translations, such as Moffatt and An American Translation and Revised Standard Version, use “him” instead of “me” in the main body of the text itself. However, the oldest and best Hebrew manuscripts read “me” rather than “him”.
As far as literal piercing is concerned, this occurred in the case of Christ Jesus, and at John 19:37 the prophecy of Zechariah 12:10 is quoted and applied to Jesus: “They will look upon the one whom they pierced.” (NW) They did not literally pierce God, who was in heaven and to whom Jesus spoke when he was on the torture stake. (Matt. 27:46; Luke 23:46)

God could not die, and then resurrect himself. (Ps. 90:2) Yet inasmuch as Jesus Christ was Jehovah’s representative who became “the exact representation of his very being”, in piercing Jesus they could be said to be piercing Jehovah. (Heb. 1:3, NW)

When sending out his followers to preach Jesus said: “He that receives you receives me also, and he that receives me receives him also that sent me forth.” (Matt. 10:40, NW) This shows that in receiving Jesus we receive Jehovah who sent him.

In like manner, to pierce Jesus is to pierce Jehovah who sent him. It does not prove Jesus and Jehovah are one, any more than it proves Jesus and his followers are literally one. In another case Jehovah showed that to reject his representative is to reject Him. When Samuel was Jehovah’s appointed judge over Israel the people came requesting a king instead of a judge. Samuel was displeased when they said: “Give us a king to judge us.” But Jehovah told Samuel: “They have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me.” (1 Sam. 8:4-7, AS) In rejecting Jehovah’s representative they rejected Jehovah, in effect; but this did not make Samuel one with Jehovah in a trinity.

Hence Zechariah 12:10 cannot be properly understood to support the trinity doctrine.

 

[Dominic Korozya]

He Comes With Clouds


Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Daniel 4:13 I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;

2 Chronicles 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Exodus 19:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.

Ezekiel 34:12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

God has come with the clouds of Heaven … ALREADY! Every eye shall see Him! If you cannot see Him, it is because you are not an eye in the body of Christ. The eyes of God are angelic “holy spirits”. Maybe you are a toe or an elbow.

1 Corinthians 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

Psalm 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

Clouds arise from the waters of the earth and these allegoric waters are men.

Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Warmth from the Sun-Son causes these waters to rise as vapors (spirits) to form clouds.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1 Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

When Jesus rose up to Heaven, He ascended up in his parabolic cloud.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

This next text shows you the symbol of cloud, spirit, and angel are one and the same.

Revelation 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

So when God “comes with clouds” you understand what He is saying. He is saying “I am bringing your brethren the holy Watchers with me” to witness and also to participate in your struggle with the tare around you.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Psalm 91:3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. 4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. 11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. 12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone. 13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.

It is these angelic Watcher-Witnesses who asked God what they should do about the tares choking the wheat. But I will remind you of Father’s response to them.


Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

As you know Father as God-Creator is omnipresent, everywhere at once. He is living your life as “you” and sharing His sensory perceptions with each spirit-cell-child as He “dwells in them and walks in them”. His reward is with Him, that is He give light and manna to those children who have mastered what He previously gave them. Those who have not learned previous lessons and dallied in the intrigues of demonic manipulation will be moved to reject God’s words by their controlling devils (tares).

Isaiah 40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. 11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

Isaiah 41:17 When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I the LORD will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them. 18 I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water. 19 I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tah tree, and the myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and the pine, and the box tree together: 20 That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it.

Another way God manages growth of wheat is to regulate the Sun-Sonshine and Reign-rain-rein. The light and warmth of the Son-sun causes germination and growth. Jesus is the “bridegroom” here.

Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. 4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, 5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.

Revelation 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

The rain of importance is what the clouds of Heaven do. When they speak, they sprinkle showers of blessing upon those with ears to hear.

Revelation 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

Hosea 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

Psalm 72:6 He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.

Zechariah 10:1 Ask ye of the LORD rain in the time of the latter rain; so the LORD shall make bright clouds, and give them showers of rain, to every one grass in the field.

Every human being has a “crown of life”, angelic guardians who can and do speak to our minds. But we have to learn to obey “our good angels” who are “our good consciences” rather than the tares (crown of thorns) who fight them. Their words are “showers” that can cause the hearers to grow spiritually.

2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.


John,
GOOD NEWS, Inc.

I often wonder if I will be alive when this happens. But I want Gods life to exist much longer yet.

 

[FredVB]

Hello, it'sme posted:

When sending out his followers to preach Jesus said: “He that receives you receives me also, and he that receives me receives him also that sent me forth.” (Matt. 10:40, NW) This shows that in receiving Jesus we receive Jehovah who sent him.

In like manner, to pierce Jesus is to pierce Jehovah who sent him. It does not prove Jesus and Jehovah are one, any more than it proves Jesus and his followers are literally one. In another case Jehovah showed that to reject his representative is to reject Him. When Samuel was Jehovah’s appointed judge over Israel the people came requesting a king instead of a judge. Samuel was displeased when they said: “Give us a king to judge us.” But Jehovah told Samuel: “They have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me.” (1 Sam. 8:4-7, AS) In rejecting Jehovah’s representative they rejected Jehovah, in effect; but this did not make Samuel one with Jehovah in a trinity.

I saw you posted that rather late, and gave some time to consider how to respond to your thinking. If you would apply a specific directive of one circumstance from Jesus to his followers, is it not apparent that this is a bad application to use it for all other passages where what is said to be true of Jesus is said to be true of Yahweh? This conclusion can only come with a set expectation from belief that Jesus is not at all Yahweh. Only in the case of Jesus, not any other figure that you cite or can be cited as representative of Yahweh God, is it established that before the incarnation as Jesus, he was existing from the beginning, and that all things have existence from him. As God is the one Creator, this leaves him who came in the incarnation as Jesus to be understood as God, which understanding does not apply to any other figure who could be spoken of as a representative of God.

By the way, when you said:

God could not die, and then resurrect himself

with the interpretation I am establishing, it does not mean that if the incarnate body of God dies, God must stop existing. Of course that would be a nonsense thought. But certainly God would always continue existing, as in eternity, even if permitting the incarnate body to die.

 

[it'sme]

I saw you posted that rather late, and gave some time to consider how to respond to your thinking. If you would apply a specific directive of one circumstance from Jesus to his followers, is it not apparent that this is a bad application to use it for all other passages where what is said to be true of Jesus is said to be true of Yahweh? This conclusion can only come with a set expectation from belief that Jesus is not at all Yahweh. Only in the case of Jesus, not any other figure that you cite or can be cited as representative of Yahweh God, is it established that before the incarnation as Jesus, he was existing from the beginning, and that all things have existence from him. As God is the one Creator, this leaves him who came in the incarnation as Jesus to be understood as God, which understanding does not apply to any other figure who could be spoken of as a representative of God.

By the way, when you said:

God could not die, and then resurrect himself

with the interpretation I am establishing, it does not mean that if the incarnate body of God dies, God must stop existing. Of course that would be a nonsense thought. But certainly God would always continue existing, as in eternity, even if permitting the incarnate body to die.

Jesus is the perfect representative of Jehovah. That is why the bible says that he is called the image of his Father. In the creation accounts the bible " let us make man in our own image. "
At John 20:17, after Jesus died and was resurrected, he still even claimed that he had a Father and a God. The same one we worshiped. All the scriptures that Jesus is quoted as saying, his Father, and the Father is greater than I am, and Jesus prayed to his God.
The understanding of Revelation and really the whole bible depends on this understanding that Jesus is a first creation of God and is his Son even in heaven. When you read the bible with this understanding then that is when you understand what Jehovah did for us. The sent his Son , ( just like we would have a Son) to die for us. Even though in Jesus case he was perfect and sinless.
That is why when Abraham as good a sacrificed Issac, this showed what Jehovah was going to do to , to give man hope for a better future. Jehovah never had the idea that we should sacrifice our children, for God. That is why this event is in the bible. Jehovah let Jesus ( his Son) die for man, so Jehovah sacrificed his own Son , by letting it happen.
The redemption that Jesus provided by being faithful to Jehovah, would be nullified if Jesus was really God. That would not have answered the question that Satan taunted Jehovah with.
This understanding of a trinity is from Babylonian religions, and historians even know when it came into Christianity, in the third century with Constantine.



Revelation 17:1-5 says: “‘Come, I will show you the judgment upon the great harlot who sits on many waters [peoples], with whom the kings [political rulers] of the earth committed fornication, whereas those who inhabit the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.’ . . . And upon her forehead was written a name, a mystery: ‘Babylon the Great, the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth.’” Revelation 18:7 adds that “she glorified herself and lived in shameless luxury.”
Is it not true that the dominant religious organizations have made it a practice to consort with political rulers for power and material gain, though this has resulted in suffering for the common people? Is it not also true that their higher clergy live in luxury, even though many of the people to whom they should minister may be impoverished?

Fred, this understanding that Christendom has about who Jehovah and Jesus are, is very important. The trinity is really from pagan religions , started in Babylon which is part of Babylon the Great, mentioned in Revelation.

 

[Steve Petersen]

In some Jewish literature, Messiah is called 'Bar Nafla', Son of the Clouds.

Another interesting article that seems to speak to your thread.

 

[it'sme]

In some Jewish literature, Messiah is called 'Bar Nafla', Son of the Clouds.

Another interesting article that seems to speak to your thread.

The interesting thing about when Jesus comes again it is spoken of as a presence . The word pa‧rou‧si′a, is used.
Matthew 24:3 While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”
This coming in the clouds and also using the word 'presence' means that he will come but not be seen with literal eyes. It is only the sign of his presence that we see. These signs are mentioned in the bible , and are wars, famine, earthquakes in place after another. This is how we will know Jesus has arrived. That is why he comes in the clouds, he remains in the heavens, and it is only by the signs on the earth, do we 'see' him.

 

[FredVB]

Jesus is the perfect representative of Jehovah. That is why the bible says that he is called the image of his Father. In the creation accounts the bible " let us make man in our own image. "
At John 20:17, after Jesus died and was resurrected, he still even claimed that he had a Father and a God. The same one we worshiped. All the scriptures that Jesus is quoted as saying, his Father, and the Father is greater than I am, and Jesus prayed to his God.
The understanding of Revelation and really the whole bible depends on this understanding that Jesus is a first creation of God and is his Son even in heaven. When you read the bible with this understanding then that is when you understand what Jehovah did for us. The sent his Son , ( just like we would have a Son) to die for us. Even though in Jesus case he was perfect and sinless.
That is why when Abraham as good a sacrificed Issac, this showed what Jehovah was going to do to , to give man hope for a better future. Jehovah never had the idea that we should sacrifice our children, for God. That is why this event is in the bible. Jehovah let Jesus ( his Son) die for man, so Jehovah sacrificed his own Son , by letting it happen.
The redemption that Jesus provided by being faithful to Jehovah, would be nullified if Jesus was really God. That would not have answered the question that Satan taunted Jehovah with.
This understanding of a trinity is from Babylonian religions, and historians even know when it came into Christianity, in the third century with Constantine.

Revelation 17:1-5 says: “‘Come, I will show you the judgment upon the great harlot who sits on many waters [peoples], with whom the kings [political rulers] of the earth committed fornication, whereas those who inhabit the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.’ . . . And upon her forehead was written a name, a mystery: ‘Babylon the Great, the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth.’” Revelation 18:7 adds that “she glorified herself and lived in shameless luxury.”
Is it not true that the dominant religious organizations have made it a practice to consort with political rulers for power and material gain, though this has resulted in suffering for the common people? Is it not also true that their higher clergy live in luxury, even though many of the people to whom they should minister may be impoverished?

Fred, this understanding that Christendom has about who Jehovah and Jesus are, is very important. The trinity is really from pagan religions , started in Babylon which is part of Babylon the Great, mentioned in Revelation.

Hello its'me. You said, Jesus is quoted as saying, his Father, and the Father is greater than I am ...

Surely, the self-existent Creator by nature is greater than the incarnation. But that Jesus is more can be understood from what he said and how he was understood, which Jesus did not dispute, in John 5 v 18 and John 8 v 58.

"[He] sent his Son , ( just like we would have a Son)"

It cannot be just like we would have a son. That would frankly be by sex, and unlike what the Mormons believe, God is not by nature a physical being, begetting a son this way. We are are told that Jesus was conceived by the power of the Spirit of God coming on his mother in this world, and so Jesus was conceived, that is , the Word was made flesh, this being the incarnation. The Word had clearly pre-existed, from the beginning, before all things.

You said the understanding of Revelation and really the whole bible depends on this understanding that Jesus is a first creation of God and is his Son even in heaven. I really do not agree with that. In particular, it seen from scriptures that Jesus, as the Word, was Creator of all things. This is characteristic of God alone. And further, that the redemption that Jesus provided by being faithful to Jehovah, would be nullified if Jesus was really God. I really do not agree, how could it then be nullified, if that is how God wanted redemption to be made?


You say dominant religious organizations have made it a practice to consort with political rulers for power and material gain, and I will not take issue that this has sometimes been the case.

About the trinity coming from pagan religions, you have been saying this. I am focusing on the divinity of Jesus as opposed to the doctrine of trinity, but I will just say that I have not seen the evidence of this. I am aware that belief of pagan deities, with which believers of God should have nothing to do, were in a few cases arranging sets of three, or triads, for some. But in the doctrine of trinity, three persons are to be understood as truly the one God. I do not believe there are any three persons considered as one god in pagan belief. The closest you may suggest is from Hindu belief, which certainly had no effect on early Christianity, but the three of Hinduism do not appear to really constitute a personal being.

If believers can find from new testament passages support for their belief in trinity, it cannot be true that such belief only originated in the 3rd century, or the 4th century, which was the actual century of Constantine, although doctrine was consolidated formally in creeds in these later times.

 

[it'sme]

Hello its'me. You said, Jesus is quoted as saying, his Father, and the Father is greater than I am ...

Surely, the self-existent Creator by nature is greater than the incarnation. But that Jesus is more can be understood from what he said and how he was understood, which Jesus did not dispute, in John 5 v 18 and John 8 v 58.

"[He] sent his Son , ( just like we would have a Son)"

It cannot be just like we would have a son. That would frankly be by sex, and unlike what the Mormons believe, God is not by nature a physical being, begetting a son this way. We are are told that Jesus was conceived by the power of the Spirit of God coming on his mother in this world, and so Jesus was conceived, that is , the Word was made flesh, this being the incarnation. The Word had clearly pre-existed, from the beginning, before all things.

You said the understanding of Revelation and really the whole bible depends on this understanding that Jesus is a first creation of God and is his Son even in heaven. I really do not agree with that. In particular, it seen from scriptures that Jesus, as the Word, was Creator of all things. This is characteristic of God alone. And further, that the redemption that Jesus provided by being faithful to Jehovah, would be nullified if Jesus was really God. I really do not agree, how could it then be nullified, if that is how God wanted redemption to be made?


You say dominant religious organizations have made it a practice to consort with political rulers for power and material gain, and I will not take issue that this has sometimes been the case.

About the trinity coming from pagan religions, you have been saying this. I am focusing on the divinity of Jesus as opposed to the doctrine of trinity, but I will just say that I have not seen the evidence of this. I am aware that belief of pagan deities, with which believers of God should have nothing to do, were in a few cases arranging sets of three, or triads, for some. But in the doctrine of trinity, three persons are to be understood as truly the one God. I do not believe there are any three persons considered as one god in pagan belief. The closest you may suggest is from Hindu belief, which certainly had no effect on early Christianity, but the three of Hinduism do not appear to really constitute a personal being.

If believers can find from new testament passages support for their belief in trinity, it cannot be true that such belief only originated in the 3rd century, or the 4th century, which was the actual century of Constantine, although doctrine was consolidated formally in creeds in these later times.

Hi Fred, I was away for a few days so I wasn't ignoring your last post.

Jesus had a pre-human existence , and was with Jehovah before all other creation. It was through Jesus and for him that all other creation happened.
So for Micheal (Jesus) to come to the earth as a man, is a lower state than the angels. But even the angels are nothing compared to Jehovah. Jesus did not have immortality, untill he successfully, remained loyal to Jehovah by dieing as a human. Jehovah had no beginning or end.
Jesus dieing on the earth as a man, was the way in which Jehovah answered the taunt Satan posed to him. No man would stay loyal to to God , but only because what Jehovah gave him or protected him. Jesus came to the earth and proved that wrong. Jesus remained loyal to Jehovah. The question was never that Jehovah would stay loyal to himself. What would that show? Nothing. That is why Jesus become the mediator between Jehovah and man. The one 'through' whom we go through to connect with Jehovah.

John 8:17 Also, in YOUR own Law it is written, ‘The witness of two men is true.’ 18 I am one that bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.” 19 Therefore they went on to say to him: “Where is your Father?” Jesus answered: “YOU know neither me nor my Father. If YOU did know me, YOU would know my Father also.” 20 These sayings he spoke in the treasury as he was teaching in the temple. But no one laid hold of him, because his hour had not yet come.


Besides all the many other places in the bible that confirm that Jesus is God's Son, this scriptures says that in law you need two witnesses , Jesus is saying that he and his father fill that law in that they are two beings.

As for the understanding of the trinity idea, ..that has been around since Babylon, and was not part of Christianity as a doctrine until Constantine.

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

But of course the bible is the real foundation ,of who Jehovah is and who Jesus is. Through the OT the Jews were looking for God's Son to come to them. Not God himself. When Jesus came , he confirmed this himself. But the religious leaders of that time , rejected Jehovah's Son Jesus, and missed him as God's representative on earth.
This falls in line with the religious leaders missing and rejecting him at his second coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Amplified Bible)

3Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the [a]apostasy comes first [unless the predicted great [b]falling away of those who have professed to be Christians has come], and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition),(A)


Micheal ( Jesus) is a Son to God just like we can have a Son. Yes we have sex to create a Son but Jehovah, used his creative power to create a Son.
But Micheal was a firstborn to Jehovah, just like we can have a firstborn Son.

 

[FredVB]

Hello it'sme. I figure it is best to put my responses after each part of what you last wrote.

"Jesus had a pre-human existence , and was with Jehovah before all other creation. It was through Jesus and for him that all other creation happened."

This is a problem with relying on your translation, which I now know to be the New World. Having access to the Greek texts used for translation, I know the word "other" does not occur in this passage from Colossians 1, which word gives this other meaning, which is not found to be supported in God's revelation.

14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

And further in Colossians 2

8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power

So it is revealed Jesus Christ though firstborn is the image of the invisible God in whom all the fulness of the Godhead, meaning divinity, dwells bodily, and is before all things, and created all things and by him all things consist. So in light of this and many other passages in scriptures which support it that he is firstborn means that he is pre-eminent and that expression is part of his title as first-born from the dead. He is indeed born, as a human being in his incarnation, but certainly not born in his pre-existence. And if Christ is head of all principality and power, and it is said that he is not God, that would be saying that God is not head of all principality and power. This is a logical absurdity.

"So for Micheal (Jesus) to come to the earth as a man, is a lower state than the angels. But even the angels are nothing compared to Jehovah. Jesus did not have immortality, untill he successfully, remained loyal to Jehovah by dieing as a human. Jehovah had no beginning or end.
Jesus dieing on the earth as a man, was the way in which Jehovah answered the taunt Satan posed to him. No man would stay loyal to to God , but only because what Jehovah gave him or protected him. Jesus came to the earth and proved that wrong. Jesus remained loyal to Jehovah. The question was never that Jehovah would stay loyal to himself. What would that show? Nothing. That is why Jesus become the mediator between Jehovah and man. The one 'through' whom we go through to connect with Jehovah."

With respect I want to say that it would only be true, if Jesus is not Yahweh, that if this reason, to demonstrate loyalty to Yahweh, was the purpose, that would be the case. No offense but this is not the reason Jesus came, and of course I do not agree that Jesus is the angel. Jesus, although certainly showing obedience, came to accomplish the atonement, and light on this subject can be found, among several places, at Hebrews 9:

11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

So what was accomplished could only be done by the Lord Jesus Christ dying and shedding his blood, thereby was the remission of sin possible.

"John 8:17 Also, in YOUR own Law it is written, ‘The witness of two men is true.’ 18 I am one that bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.” 19 Therefore they went on to say to him: “Where is your Father?” Jesus answered: “YOU know neither me nor my Father. If YOU did know me, YOU would know my Father also.” 20 These sayings he spoke in the treasury as he was teaching in the temple. But no one laid hold of him, because his hour had not yet come.


"Besides all the many other places in the bible that confirm that Jesus is God's Son, this scriptures says that in law you need two witnesses , Jesus is saying that he and his father fill that law in that they are two beings."

This part of your message shows you do not understand what is being said by the positon that Jesus and the Father are God. That the Father and Jesus meet the requirement for two witnesses demonstrate two persons, and as far as his critics on that occasion were concerned, God had given testimony to the truth of Jesus, and Jesus spoke that it was true also, so they had evidence, if they were to observe it, from two witnesses. But the position is that they are one God, and this means that they are truly one Being. In the light of the things discussed that support that Jesus is God, they must be One, for there are certainly not two Gods. This is found in John 5 v 18, and a bit further in that chapter John 8 you were quoting from, to which I previously referred:

18Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

John 8

58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.


They were seeking to put him to death, because they understood he was making himself equal with God by what he said, which was true, and then in the second place understood his phrase which established he was God, being the case, they had no other reason to stone him. The phrase was obvious, and Jesus meant it.


This gives meaning to Jesus saying that he and the Father are One. We, Christians generally, can understand they are two who can speak to each other, but they are together one Being. And there is no disagreement between them. If Jesus were another being, you would indeed have two Gods. Again there are certainly not.


>As for the understanding of the trinity idea, ..that has been around since Babylon, and was not part of Christianity as a doctrine until Constantine.

>The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.
>The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

The whole argument here is being based on the idea that the word trinity is not found in the scriptures and the doctrine of trinity was formally fully set forth only at this later time. I am dealing with the divinity of Christ, and if you insist, I will come back to this subject, but what has been brought up does not negate the verses in which believers find support for their belief in trinity.

"But of course the bible is the real foundation ,of who Jehovah is and who Jesus is. Through the OT the Jews were looking for God's Son to come to them. Not God himself. When Jesus came , he confirmed this himself. But the religious leaders of that time , rejected Jehovah's Son Jesus, and missed him as God's representative on earth.
This falls in line with the religious leaders missing and rejecting him at his second coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Amplified Bible)

3Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the apostasy comes first [unless the predicted great falling away of those who have professed to be Christians has come], and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition),


"Micheal ( Jesus) is a Son to God just like we can have a Son. Yes we have sex to create a Son but Jehovah, used his creative power to create a Son.
But Micheal was a firstborn to Jehovah, just like we can have a firstborn Son."

Yes, Jesus is Son of God. The word "Son" refers to his incarnation. The Jews were not looking forward to anyone they called Son of God, but to the promised one that was to be called Messiah. That he is the Son of God in no wise contradicts that with the Father he is one being, God. Men may be sons of God, Adam was before the fall, and in Christ men may come to be sons of God. But only Jesus is said and can only in truth be said to be the only begotten Son of God. Those who are redeemed become sons of God by adoption.

 

[it'sme]

This is a problem with relying on your translation, which I now know to be the New World. Having access to the Greek texts used for translation, I know the word "other" does not occur in this passage from Colossians 1, which word gives this other meaning, which is not found to be supported in God's revelation.

14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Here is an interesting translation of this.Colossians 1:7-17 (Contemporary English Version)

7from our good friend Epaphras. He works together with us for Christ and is a faithful worker for you. [a]
8He is also the one who told us about the love that God's Spirit has given you.

The Person and Work of Christ

9We have not stopped praying for you since the first day we heard about you. In fact, we always pray that God will show you everything he wants you to do and that you may have all the wisdom and understanding that his Spirit gives. 10Then you will live a life that honors the Lord, and you will always please him by doing good deeds. You will come to know God even better.
11His glorious power will make you patient and strong enough to endure anything, and you will be truly happy.
12I pray that you will be grateful to God for letting you [b] have part in what he has promised his people in the kingdom of light.
13God rescued us from the dark power of Satan and brought us into the kingdom of his dear Son,
14who forgives our sins and sets us free.
15Christ is exactly like God,
who cannot be seen.
He is the first-born Son,
superior to all creation.
16Everything was created by him,
everything in heaven
and on earth,
everything seen and unseen,
including all forces
and powers,
and all rulers
and authorities.
All things were created
by God's Son,
and everything was made
for him.
17God's Son was before all else,
and by him everything
is held together.



This tells us that Jesus is exactly like God, he is the image of God, he is also the firstborn Son. So Jesus is like God, there is no problem with that. This verse say it was made for him. The question is who made it for him? And then it goes on to say God's Son was before all else. Meaningbefore other creation.


Mark 13:32, RS: “Of that day or that hour no ones knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Of course, that would not be the case if Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were coequal, comprising one Godhead. And if, as some suggest, the Son was limited by his human nature from knowing, the question remains, Why did the Holy Spirit not know?)

So it is revealed Jesus Christ though firstborn is the image of the invisible God in whom all the fulness of the Godhead, meaning divinity, dwells bodily, and is before all things, and created all things and by him all things consist. So in light of this and many other passages in scriptures which support it that he is firstborn means that he is pre-eminent and that expression is part of his title as first-born from the dead. He is indeed born, as a human being in his incarnation, but certainly not born in his pre-existence. And if Christ is head of all principality and power, and it is said that he is not God, that would be saying that God is not head of all principality and power. This is a logical absurdity.

Matt. 20:20-23, RS: “The mother of the sons of Zebedee . . . said to him [Jesus], ‘Command that these two sons of mine may sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.’ But Jesus answered, . . . ‘You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.’” (How strange, if, as claimed, Jesus is God! Was Jesus here merely answering according to his “human nature”? If, as Trinitarians say, Jesus was truly “God-man”—both God and man, not one or the other—would it truly be consistent to resort to such an explanation? Does not Matthew 20:23 rather show that the Son is not equal to the Father, that the Father has reserved some prerogatives for himself?)


Matt. 12:31, 32, RS: “Every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” (If the Holy Spirit were a person and were God, this text would flatly contradict the Trinity doctrine, because it would mean that in some way the Holy Spirit was greater than the Son. Instead, what Jesus said shows that the Father, to whom the “Spirit” belonged, is greater than Jesus, the Son of man.)
John 14:28, RS: “[Jesus said:] If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.”
1 Cor. 11:3, RS: “I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.” (Clearly, then, Christ is not God, and God is of superior rank to Christ. It should be noted that this was written about 55 C.E., some 22 years after Jesus returned to heaven. So the truth here stated applies to the relationship between God and Christ in heaven.)
1 Cor. 15:27, 28 RS: “‘God has put all things in subjection under his [Jesus’] feet.’ But when it says, ‘All things are put in subjection under him,’ it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one.”
The Hebrew word Shad‧dai′ and the Greek word Pan‧to‧kra′tor are both translated “Almighty.” Both original-language words are repeatedly applied to Jehovah, the Father. (Ex. 6:3; Rev. 19:6) Neither expression is ever applied to either the Son or the holy spirit.


(John 20:17) Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’”
This last verse Jesus said after he had died and been resurrected, when he was on his way as a spirit to Jehovah.

There is no doubt about this, The trinity idea is a pagan idea, and was not from the bible or Jesus, but from Babylonian pagan religions.


But really this thread is about Jesus second coming, and why he comes in the clouds.