Have you see this

Vanguard PCD · Jan 11, 2014

Bluelion said:
well put.

PA said they had freedom of religion which is true, but does a symbol of lawlessness belong in a place of Law? The ten fit because they are the first known Laws, the pagans were lawless. One could argue it is where civilized society got its start.

The 10 fit if you are a Christian or Jew. What about Muslims, Hindu, Buddhists, Sikhs, etc. The 10 do not represent their religion. It's either all or nothing, per the law and the separation of church and state.

Oh and the pagans were FAR from lawless.

now faith · Jan 12, 2014

Primi Agminis said:
The 10 fit if you are a Christian or Jew. What about Muslims, Hindu, Buddhists, Sikhs, etc. The 10 do not represent their religion. It's either all or nothing, per the law and the separation of church and state.

Oh and the pagans were FAR from lawless.

You know, I do not think the founding fathers of America were concerned about Buddha or any other pagan God.

I really could careless about offending anyone,by putting my God first the God of Abraham.
The God who spoke the world into being ,the God who gave his son for me.

Declare the God of heaven,or take your place in the lake.

98cwitr · Jan 12, 2014

Id have to agree...the 10 commandments are OT Law, we are no longer under the OT Law, but NT Law, which only has 2 commandments. If you are going to observe the 10 commandments, you must also observe the entire Mitzvot.

Vanguard PCD · Jan 12, 2014

now faith said:
You know, I do not think the founding fathers of America were concerned about Buddha or any other pagan God.

I really could careless about offending anyone,by putting my God first the God of Abraham.
The God who spoke the world into being ,the God who gave his son for me.

Declare the God of heaven,or take your place in the lake.

You do realize that Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and even Abraham Lincoln were classified as deists?

Bluelion · Jan 12, 2014

now faith said:
You know, I do not think the founding fathers of America were concerned about Buddha or any other pagan God.

I really could careless about offending anyone,by putting my God first the God of Abraham.
The God who spoke the world into being ,the God who gave his son for me.

Declare the God of heaven,or take your place in the lake.

That about says it all. If your ashamed of me on earth I will be ashamed of you before my Father. Jesus said.

Bluelion · Jan 12, 2014

98cwitr said:
Id have to agree...the 10 commandments are OT Law, we are no longer under the OT Law, but NT Law, which only has 2 commandments. If you are going to observe the 10 commandments, you must also observe the entire Mitzvot.

OT law, the ten, still applies and we are to do are best to follow, but we can keep all the Law by keeping the two. We are not condemned by the law so we are not under its curse. How ever Heaven and earth will pass away but God's words never will.

Bluelion · Jan 12, 2014

Primi Agminis said:
You do realize that Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and even Abraham Lincoln were classified as deists?

You may not know the first book printed was the Bible by congress. Seems they did not take church and state to mean the same thing you do. They were fleeing the church of England that is why the Law.

Rhamiel · Jan 12, 2014

I do not think we should allow such a horrible statue to be erected on public land

it does not represent the values of the American people, in general
as a culture, we are based on Judeo-Christian values mixed with Enlightenment philosophy

98cwitr · Jan 12, 2014

Bluelion said:
OT law, the ten, still applies and we are to do are best to follow, but we can keep all the Law by keeping the two. We are not condemned by the law so we are not under its curse. How ever Heaven and earth will pass away but God's words never will.

Show me in Scripture where the Law still applies (and no, that verse doesn't say that it does). Obedience to OT Law never saved anyone.

Bluelion · Jan 12, 2014

98cwitr said:
Show me in Scripture where the Law still applies (and no, that verse doesn't say that it does). Obedience to OT Law never saved anyone.

Show me where it says the Law was abolished?

98cwitr · Jan 12, 2014

Just to qualify, OT Mosaic Law: Hebrews 8:8-13 (hey, the Exodus is explicitly mentioned here! hmmmmmm)...unless of course Paul is contradicting Christ here.

Christ has fulfilled the Law, and those in Christ have also fulfilled the Law. Where there is Law there is transgression, so to say that Christ's Blood has not fully cleansed His elect is to say that it is insufficient to do so.

I've shown you mine...now you show me yours

Keachian · Jan 12, 2014

now faith said:
You know, I do not think the founding fathers of America were concerned about Buddha or any other pagan God.

I really could careless about offending anyone,by putting my God first the God of Abraham.
The God who spoke the world into being ,the God who gave his son for me.

Declare the God of heaven,or take your place in the lake.

The separation of Church and State is not about declaration of God or not. And I find such speaking to be reprehensible to the Gospel. I do not want politicians and politics to be trying to win me over by erecting pretty statues that claim to be a part of my religion, idolatry and pandering is all that is.

Vanguard PCD · Jan 12, 2014

Bluelion said:
Show me where it says the Law was abolished?

For the record:

Matthew 5:17 [Jesus] Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Ephesians 2:14-15 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace...

The verse in Matthew refers to the Jews in that Jesus was not abolishing their laws found in the OT; He was fulfilling them.

The verse in Ephesians is referring to the Gentiles, who were not Jewish, and stating that they need not follow Jewish OT law; that all will be equal and find salvation through Him. The laws that separated Jews and Gentiles were fulfilled and put away. In other words, the OT "contract" was fullfilled [by Him] and no longer binding.

By the same token, Jesus did use the 10 as a teaching platform and often talked about them. He summed them up with 2 commandments:

1. Love God
2. Love your neighbor

Bluelion · Jan 12, 2014

98cwitr said:
Just to qualify, OT Mosaic Law: Hebrews 8:8-13 (hey, the Exodus is explicitly mentioned here! hmmmmmm)...unless of course Paul is contradicting Christ here.

Christ has fulfilled the Law, and those in Christ have also fulfilled the Law. Where there is Law there is transgression, so to say that Christ's Blood has not fully cleansed His elect is to say that it is insufficient to do so.

I've shown you mine...now you show me yours

lets post it shall we

8 But when God found fault with the people, he said:

“The day is coming, says the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel and Judah.
9 This covenant will not be like the one
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
and led them out of the land of Egypt.
They did not remain faithful to my covenant,
so I turned my back on them, says the Lord.
10 But this is the new covenant I will make
with the people of Israel on that day,[c] says the Lord:
I will put my laws in their minds,
and I will write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 And they will not need to teach their neighbors,
nor will they need to teach their relatives,[d]
saying, ‘You should know the Lord.’
For everyone, from the least to the greatest,
will know me already.
12 And I will forgive their wickedness,
and I will never again remember their sins.”[e]
13 When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear.

See 10 there I will write my LAW on their minds and Hearts, which Law do you think that is. and It is speaking of the old covenant which says you break the law you must pay. No we are not under that because if we break the Law we have forgiveness so you still must obey the 10 the best you can. But you can keep it all by the two. It is not speaking of destroying the Law. The Law is Good why would it be destroyed it is man who is flawed.

ok mine Mathew 5:17-20

17 “Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved. 19 So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God’s laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

20 “But I warn you—unless your righteousness is better than the righteousness of the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven!

This clearly shows the Law has not disappeared and when will it. When it is complete. We have forgiveness now How ever we do not have the life promised us. That comes after the end with the new earth, new bodies and Jesus ruling forever. In those days the law will not be needed because no one will even think of sin.

Also if we are going to discuss this I would appreciate it if you did not put words in my mouth or say I said things I did not.

you said: Where there is Law there is transgression, so to say that Christ's Blood has not fully cleansed His elect is to say that it is insufficient to do so.

I never said any such thing nor did I ever implied such a thing.

Bluelion · Jan 12, 2014

Primi Agminis said:
For the record:

Matthew 5:17 [Jesus] Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Ephesians 2:14-15 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace...

The verse in Matthew refers to the Jews in that Jesus was not abolishing their laws found in the OT; He was fulfilling them.

The verse in Ephesians is referring to the Gentiles, who were not Jewish, and stating that they need not follow Jewish OT law; that all will be equal and find salvation through Him. The laws that separated Jews and Gentiles were fulfilled and put away. In other words, the OT "contract" was fullfilled [by Him] and no longer binding.

By the same token, Jesus did use the 10 as a teaching platform and often talked about them. He summed them up with 2 commandments:

1. Love God
2. Love your neighbor

we are not far off in this but the ten were never put away. Why do you think the anti christ is called the lawless one, if there are no laws why be called the lawless one. unless you are saying Christians have law of the two but everyone else does have the rest of the laws. Jesus summon up the whole Law in two.

But Hebrews speak of the new covenant, it was for the purpose of Jesus the law was written and fulfilled but the old covenant passed away not the law.
We have forgiveness which is why God said sin where is your sting death where is your victory, might have those back wards, but you get the idea. What gave sin its power was the Law and plenty of death, but for those who have Jesus they have forgiveness from their transgressions, does not mean there is no Law.

One could argue well I killed my brother because he was going to kill others so I stopped him from doing evil and was there by Loving him keeping the two, but we all know a murder does not have eternal life in him as Paul said. and it is still murder. That is why we still have the Law. It is to guide us now until the end, The old the law kept us, now forgiveness keeps us, Jesus keeps us, and the law is our guide.

now faith · Jan 13, 2014

progmonk said:
The separation of Church and State is not about declaration of God or not. And I find such speaking to be reprehensible to the Gospel. I do not want politicians and politics to be trying to win me over by erecting pretty statues that claim to be a part of my religion, idolatry and pandering is all that is.

I can understand your point,I noticed your not a American.

Forgive my boldness and bandstand.

For older Americans we were taught that America was founded on Christian values.

We were taught many of our founding fathers were ministers,and prayer was part of commencement any government assembly.

The King James Bible was decreed our official Bible.

Prayer started all school days,prayer to the God of Abraham and prayers ended in the name of Jesus.

Our view of separation of Church and State,did not mean removing God from all State and Federal Government.

It is a lie by the father of lies,some 40 years ago the idea was kindled.

As well as legalized abortion,drug use and promiscuity.

These things existed in the shadows but we're not human rights,same sex marriage is a the for front of being considered common law,and will be a hate crime if spoken against shortly.

What our founding fathers intended for separation of Church and State,was not having a national Church,that we originally rebelled against in England to form America.

A National Church such as the Church of Rome or the Church of England,had complete control over your religious belief.

They had the power to kill a person they deemed a heritic.

Christianity with religious freedom was the essence of America for 150 years.

Baptist,Methodists,Catholic,Pentecostal,as long as Christ was at the center it was our way of life.
Still today the vast majority of Americans consider themselves Christian.

Yet a very small minority,of secularists,with the help of propaganda and the devil,
Have forced us to give equality to Satanist,Pantheism,Atheism,Hedonism,and any other
Abomination they see fit.

And we are to turn our backs on Christ and never mention him in public events.

Altruism is perdition,when the voice of a few can silence the masses.

Bluelion · Jan 13, 2014

now faith said:
I can understand your point,I noticed your not a American.

Forgive my boldness and bandstand.

For older Americans we were taught that America was founded on Christian values.

We were taught many of our founding fathers were ministers,and prayer was part of commencement any government assembly.

The King James Bible was decreed our official Bible.

Prayer started all school days,prayer to the God of Abraham and prayers ended in the name of Jesus.

Our view of separation of Church and State,did not mean removing God from all State and Federal Government.

It is a lie by the father of lies,some 40 years ago the idea was kindled.

As well as legalized abortion,drug use and promiscuity.

These things existed in the shadows but we're not human rights,same sex marriage is a the for front of being considered common law,and will be a hate crime if spoken against shortly.

What our founding fathers intended for separation of Church and State,was not having a national Church,that we originally rebelled against in England to form America.

A National Church such as the Church of Rome or the Church of England,had complete control over your religious belief.

They had the power to kill a person they deemed a heritic.

Christianity with religious freedom was the essence of America for 150 years.

Baptist,Methodists,Catholic,Pentecostal,as long as Christ was at the center it was our way of life.
Still today the vast majority of Americans consider themselves Christian.

Yet a very small minority,of secularists,with the help of propaganda and the devil,
Have forced us to give equality to Satanist,Pantheism,Atheism,Hedonism,and any other
Abomination they see fit.

And we are to turn our backs on Christ and never mention him in public events.

Altruism is perdition,when the voice of a few can silence the masses.

We are from two different domination, but we are not so different. I agree word for word with everything you said. Maybe the movement in the church needs to be to united all the branches. We fight to much over silly stuff, when push comes to shove we all Love our King, on that we always agree. Good post

now faith · Jan 13, 2014

Primi Agminis said:
The 10 fit if you are a Christian or Jew. What about Muslims, Hindu, Buddhists, Sikhs, etc. The 10 do not represent their religion. It's either all or nothing, per the law and the separation of church and state.

Oh and the pagans were FAR from lawless.

How many non Christian Churches do you find in the phone book?

We do not hamper their right of worship,why do they under the cloud of offence take away ours?

In a classroom of 30 kids if their 2 Muslims,one Buddist,and one devil worshipper,let them wait out side the room while the 26 other kids pray in Jesus name.

Why do the 26 others have to abide by the 4 kids wishes.

Go to a Buddhist country or Muslim and see if they are so sensitive to forgo their religion
No speak against it and they will kill you,why give them dominion here as well?

now faith · Jan 13, 2014

Primi Agminis said:
You do realize that Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and even Abraham Lincoln were classified as deists?

I don't care if they were from mars.

Sorry that dog or straw man won't hunt.

Keachian · Jan 13, 2014

now faith said:
I can understand your point,I noticed your not a American.

Forgive my boldness and bandstand.

For older Americans we were taught that America was founded on Christian values.

We were taught many of our founding fathers were ministers,and prayer was part of commencement any government assembly.

The King James Bible was decreed our official Bible.

Prayer started all school days,prayer to the God of Abraham and prayers ended in the name of Jesus.

Our view of separation of Church and State,did not mean removing God from all State and Federal Government.

It is a lie by the father of lies,some 40 years ago the idea was kindled.

As well as legalized abortion,drug use and promiscuity.

These things existed in the shadows but we're not human rights,same sex marriage is a the for front of being considered common law,and will be a hate crime if spoken against shortly.

What our founding fathers intended for separation of Church and State,was not having a national Church,that we originally rebelled against in England to form America.

A National Church such as the Church of Rome or the Church of England,had complete control over your religious belief.

They had the power to kill a person they deemed a heritic.

Christianity with religious freedom was the essence of America for 150 years.

Baptist,Methodists,Catholic,Pentecostal,as long as Christ was at the center it was our way of life.
Still today the vast majority of Americans consider themselves Christian.

Yet a very small minority,of secularists,with the help of propaganda and the devil,
Have forced us to give equality to Satanist,Pantheism,Atheism,Hedonism,and any other
Abomination they see fit.

And we are to turn our backs on Christ and never mention him in public events.

Altruism is perdition,when the voice of a few can silence the masses.

You're still exacerbating and clinging to what I see as the problem here, that some kind of nationalism has replaced Christianity as the religion of the people. I don't think it is right to say: "it is [nationality] to be Christian" such a statement defies Paul's thinking in places such as "there is neither Jew nor Greek..." "while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord..." the writer to the Hebrews when he talks of us being "Strangers and exiles ... desiring the heavenly country..." or even Christ when in front of Pilate says that "my Kingdom is not of this world." We are first and foremost citizens of the Kingdom of Heaven, that is our nationality and that is where we are eagerly awaiting to take up residence and you know what there is a National Church there.

Does this mean we stop preaching Christ and him Crucified? By no means, it simply means that if we start looking to a country as an image of the Church (because that is what you are doing) then you will be disappointed.

Have you see this

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