Have you read these Christian Philosophers for Apologetic Value?

[2PhiloVoid]

O.k. so they assume Christianity is true and then philosophize about the implications? I guess that is of no interest to me, but there are lots of academic fields that are of no interest to me.

No, they don't necessarily start with the assumption that Christianity is true. That would be to say that they are all, perhaps, Pre-suppositionalists or Reliablists. The reality is that Christian philosophers can be all over the place: some are Existentialist, some are Coherentist, some Foundationalist and Evidentialist, some are into Mysticism, and some are Pragmatist, and so on. And then...the variety of topics they cover can be wide ranging as well.

My saying this isn't to persuade you to start reading these ladies and gents, but to simply to let you know the variety that can be found among them.

 

[cloudyday2]

No, they don't necessarily start with the assumption that Christianity is true. That would be to say that they are all, perhaps, Pre-suppositionalists or Reliablists. The reality is that Christian philosophers can be all over the place: some are Existentialist, some are Coherentist, some Foundationalist and Evidentialist, some are into Mysticism, and some are Pragmatist, and so on. And then...the variety of topics they cover can be wide ranging as well.

My saying this isn't to persuade you to start reading these ladies and gents, but to simply to let you know the variety that can be found among them.

Maybe I will see if any of them have made DVDs for the Great Courses. I've been buying these DVDs used on Amazon and watching them when I stretch before going to bed. That's about the limit to my self improvement learning.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Maybe I will see if any of them have made DVDs for the Great Courses. I've been buying these DVDs used on Amazon and watching them when I stretch before going to bed. That's about the limit to my self improvement learning.

I doubt many have, if any. However, a few of the teachers of the Great Courses are Christian.

 

[cloudyday2]

I doubt many have, if any. However, a few of the teachers of the Great Courses are Christian.

I see several of the courses on Christian topics are taught by Phillip Cary of Eastern University ( Phillip Cary - Wikipedia ) He teaches a class on the history of Christian theology.

To be honest, I've been deliberately avoiding courses on Christianity, because many of them simply reinforce my skepticism of Christianity. I spend a lot of time with my Christian mother, and sometimes I wish I could find a way to share her beliefs again. Christianity is so important to my mother, and I don't like secretly having such a low opinion of her beliefs. ... Lately I've been thinking maybe I could be Hindu who practices Christianity as one of the many paths to God (or something like that).

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I see several of the courses on Christian topics are taught by Phillip Cary of Eastern University ( Phillip Cary - Wikipedia ) He teaches a class on the history of Christian theology.

Thank you for pointing that out, Cloudy! I didn't know that. Good work.

To be honest, I've been deliberately avoiding courses on Christianity, because many of them simply reinforce my skepticism of Christianity. I spend a lot of time with my Christian mother, and sometimes I wish I could find a way to share her beliefs again.

Well, in view of the topic of the OP in my other thread about 'evil', and with the manifestation of a form of suffering (or felt evil) that I had with my mom [if you remember some of the things I mentioned about her on another thread], I can very much empathize with those who, like yourself, have had to face your own challenges, your own suffering, and at the same time have wondered who or where is God in all of this?

Christianity is so important to my mother, and I don't like secretly having such a low opinion of her beliefs. ... Lately I've been thinking maybe I could be Hindu who practices Christianity as one of the many paths to God (or something like that).

Well, that may be one way in which you can explore various religions, such as Hinduism, and yet keep yourself open at the same time to the presence of Christianity. However, we both know that somewhere in there, Jesus' exclusivism will refer us to a point of decision about "Who do we say He is?"

Anyway, you could try that approach for a while. I'm just impressed that you hang around CF like you do. Most people I've heard who have felt alienated from the Christian faith no longer what to touch it, even with a ten-foot pole, as they say.

 

[Dirk1540]

Maybe I will see if any of them have made DVDs for the Great Courses.

Just some things that I gathered from the reviews, of course I could be wrong, sounds like David Johnson has a strong atheist leaning and Daniel Robinson has a strong theist leaning. Strong leanings don't really bother me since it's good to get multiple viewpoints, but unfortunately it sounds like Robinson is in love with an unnecessary complex vocabulary, a lot of complaints that it's hard to follow, that he's not good at putting the cookies on the lower shelf. Johnson reviews sound like his bias plagues his material too badly. The reviews rave about how good Patrick Grim and Steven Gimbel are at making things easy to understand.

Another thing that I gathered from the reviews is that Patrick Grim's new course 'Mind-Body Philosophy' is a rehash of his older course 'Philosophy of Mind', but it sounds to me like the older course was done better. Sounds like you definitely wouldn't need both, but that he tried to fix something that wasn't broken, and the 2nd one wasn't as good. So I got his Philosophy of Mind course. Just because of the praise he gets as a teacher it also pulled me in to also getting his 'The Philosopher's Toolkit' course. The praise of Steven Gimbel caused me to get his 'Redefining Reality' course which is a philosophy of science intro. There's an older 'Philosophy of Science' course by Jeffery Kasser, it sounds more in depth but it also sounds like some people struggle with his teaching like with Robinson. I got Kasser's course anyway, maybe after watching Gimbel's course I'll be better able to absorb Kasser's.

And the great reviews for Gimbel's teaching roped me into also getting his Into to Formal Logic course lol. And then I also bought this triple pack which sounds like quality reviews...

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00TXIFJ56/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Then I also have philosophy course DVDs straight from WLC's classroom that are in the 30 hour range. I haven't watched ANY of this stuff yet lol, still in book mode right now.

Oh and I did also grab that History of Christian Theology course from Phillip Cary, yeah that looks good.

 

[Dirk1540]

I will add this though, there's definitely more good reviews than bad for all the instructors. So it's possible that some bad reviewers are just not putting in the effort that it takes.

 

[cloudyday2]

I will add this though, there's definitely more good reviews than bad for all the instructors. So it's possible that some bad reviewers are just not putting in the effort that it takes.

The Islam DVD that I bought had terrible reviews, but it actually wasn't that bad. The reviewers criticized the professor for politicizing the lectures, and after the first lecture I was pretty disappointed, but the later lectures were better.

 

[Dirk1540]

The Islam DVD that I bought had terrible reviews, but it actually wasn't that bad. The reviewers criticized the professor for politicizing the lectures, and after the first lecture I was pretty disappointed, but the later lectures were better.

Yeah I do read that about some courses, that you need to go a few lectures deep before you appreciate it.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Obviously, this is the Apologetics Forum in which the rubber actually meets the road, and all of the Christian talking, thinking, philosophizing, and theologizing come to bear upon how we not only conceive our own faith, but in how we present (or defend it) to others.

Everyone is familiar with the typical Apologetics list that is often brought out and to which people most often go for "Christian Answers" to all those nasty complexities of religious thought that everyone wrestles with in some way or other. And while there is indeed much to learn from the usual names that are brought out on behalf of Christian faith, such as C.S. Lewis, William Lane Craig, Lee Stroble, R.C. Sproul, Josh McDowell, etc., etc., there are also a whole host of Christian Philosophers whom also can be brought in for further, in-depth, and variable, consideration on the philosophical and theological issues that pique our interests.

In this thread I'm providing some lists for everyone to peruse. These lists are by no means exhaustive, since there are a couple of dozen names that could be added that aren't present. Or there are some unknown Christians who have degrees in philosophy and/or related academic fields who go unnoticed and might deserve mention like: Merold Westphal (post-modern philosopher), Catherine Clark Kroeger (Theologian/Ethicist/Women's Rights), Basil Mitchell (analytic philosopher), and some like Hans Urs von Balthazar (a philosophical theologian).

So, if you have ever read anyone on these lists (other than C.S. Lewis or WLC ), go ahead and comment about them in this thread and maybe a little about what he/she means to you. Or, if you have some names that you know are Christian Philosophers and you want to add them, then please do so.

1) Category:Christian philosophers - Wikipedia

2) Christian philosophy - Wikipedia

3) https://www.amazon.com/God-Philosop...7192&sr=8-2&keywords=philosophers+who+believe

4) https://www.amazon.com/Philosophers...7192&sr=8-1&keywords=philosophers+who+believe

Enjoy whatever discussion comes about here ...

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

As Aron Ra puts it,

"What's the difference between these guys and a guy who has a PhD in Mother Goose?"

 

[2PhiloVoid]

As Aron Ra puts it,

"What's the difference between these guys and a guy who has a PhD in Mother Goose?"

Happy Holidays to you and yours, as well, NV! Enjoy this "interactive" Holiday Card!

 

[Silmarien]

As Aron Ra puts it,

"What's the difference between these guys and a guy who has a PhD in Mother Goose?"

Atheist Presuppositionalism!

1. God does not exist.
2. Therefore, God does not exist.
3. Therefore, any study thereof is inherently meaningless.

Rational atheists would generally categorize theology with the humanities and consider such studies valuable for cultural and historic reasons. The anti-intellectualism involved in comparing humanities degrees to "Mother Goose" is really quite striking, even from a secular perspective.

 

[cloudyday2]

Atheist Presuppositionalism!

1. God does not exist.
2. Therefore, God does not exist.
3. Therefore, any study thereof is inherently meaningless.

Rational atheists would generally categorize theology with the humanities and consider such studies valuable for cultural and historic reasons. The anti-intellectualism involved in comparing humanities degrees to "Mother Goose" is really quite striking, even from a secular perspective.

Probably people would like to think that their personal area of talent is the most important field of endeavor. Conversely if people have zero talent in some area then they would like to think that area doesn't matter.

Anyway, that is why I tend to dismiss thinks like philosophy, poetry, literature, etc. I doubt if that is the case with everybody though. There is no doubt that science, technology, etc. have been the real heavy-lifters in our culture lately. So it would be natural for somebody to think the other areas are frivolous - like studying Mother Goose.

 

[Silmarien]

Probably people would like to think that their personal area of talent is the most important field of endeavor. Conversely if people have zero talent in some area then they would like to think that area doesn't matter.

Anyway, that is why I tend to dismiss thinks like philosophy, poetry, literature, etc. I doubt if that is the case with everybody though. There is no doubt that science, technology, etc. have been the real heavy-lifters in our culture lately.

They'll heavy lift us right into World War III and nuclear armageddon if we're not careful, and political theory and ethics reside in the realm of philosophy. The social and economic aspects of technology are an increasingly complicated mess.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Probably people would like to think that their personal area of talent is the most important field of endeavor. Conversely if people have zero talent in some area then they would like to think that area doesn't matter.

Anyway, that is why I tend to dismiss thinks like philosophy, poetry, literature, etc. I doubt if that is the case with everybody though. There is no doubt that science, technology, etc. have been the real heavy-lifters in our culture lately. So it would be natural for somebody to think the other areas are frivolous - like studying Mother Goose.

To dismiss philosophy altogether is to dismiss Logic, Epistemology, and Ethics, in addition to Metaphysics and Aesthetics. Are you sure you really want to put yourself out there that far like that? It's one thing to "go out on a limb," even if that limb seems to be sensible and provided by science. But, it's another thing to cut off the limb you're sitting on since it connects to the trunk of its own tree.

[p.s. ...oh, excuse me. I see Silmarien already addressed something of this issue. She's quick like that! ]

 

[cloudyday2]

To dismiss philosophy altogether is to dismiss Logic, Epistemology, and Ethics, in addition to Metaphysics and Aesthetics. Are you sure you really want to put yourself out there that far like that? It's one thing to "go out on a limb," even if that limb seems to be sensible and provided by science. But, it's another thing to cut off the support by which the limb you're sitting connects to the trunk of its own tree.

[p.s. ...oh, excuse me. I see Silmarien already addressed something of this issue. She's quick like that! ]

Actually I think logic is all that we need. You can throw out the rest of it. I won't shed any tears LOL

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Actually I think logic is all that we need. You can throw out the rest of it. I won't shed any tears LOL

Let's hope that limb you're sitting on stays aloft. And then, too, remember that a comfortable perch doesn't mean it's a strong one.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Atheist Presuppositionalism!

1. God does not exist.
2. Therefore, God does not exist.
3. Therefore, any study thereof is inherently meaningless.

You've commented on my thread which has the gumball machine analogy. So either you responded to a thread without reading the OP, or else you forgot who I am and what I've said. Please review my "Atheists are reasonable, and theists are not" thread so you can correct yourself here.

Rational atheists would generally categorize theology with the humanities and consider such studies valuable for cultural and historic reasons. The anti-intellectualism involved in comparing humanities degrees to "Mother Goose" is really quite striking, even from a secular perspective.

You remain utterly lost. Theology is to apologetics as a judge is to an attorney. Apologists, like attorneys, have an a priori conclusion that they must defend, and this scenario nearly always leads to dishonesty. I have never met an honest apologist. Theologians, on the other hand, study religion objectively.

 

[cloudyday2]

You remain utterly lost. Theology is to apologetics as a judge is to an attorney. Apologists, like attorneys, have an a priori conclusion that they must defend, and this scenario nearly always leads to dishonesty. I have never met an honest apologist. Theologians, on the other hand, study religion objectively.

I think you give theologians too much credit, and we need to remember another group - the historians of religion. The historians are the group that most atheists would consider to be contributing to human progress. The theologians are more like people who spend society's resources designing improved heffalump harnesses.

 

[cloudyday2]

Let's hope that limb you're sitting on stays aloft. And then, too, remember that a comfortable perch doesn't mean it's a strong one.

I'm not worried, because I have a cat, and cats always land on their feet