Have you done any good with your judging?

[dawnsday]

df

 

[dawnsday]

Lord? Please?

thanks!

 

[dawnsday]

 

[Zaac]

respond all you want but you are not her so you mean nothing.

Well, if you are my sister in Christ, I can't say the same about you.

But in case you haven't noticed, you're exhibiting the very behavior that you're saying Christians are being mean with.

NO I DID NOT. I HAD NO POINT TO MAKE. I JUST RESPONDED WITH MY THOUGHTS BASED ON THE UNDERSTANDING I HAD FROM THE POST.

Sure you did. If you had no point to make, there was no need to ask the questions you did.

you are not in my head, you are not smarter then me or anyone else around here, you are not any more able to decipher my or anyone else's intentions and claiming to do so is wrong and arrogant.

you've completely derailed this thread and made a mockery of ANYONE attempting to be PRODUCTIVE so you can raise yourself above others like an ego with legs.

I've done no such thing. The thread went where it went because YOU took it there.

MY THREAD. I POINTED OUT I WAS SPEAKING ABOUT THE CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY IN GENERAL, NOT ONLY THIS FORUM AND I CAN DO SO IF I PLEASE. YOU ARE NOT (ready to hear my sound 5? it's the only way I can think to say it)...

YOU ARE NOT THE BOSS OF ME.

And it's still an open forum. So stop ascribing what you have seen outside this forum to the Christians inside this forum while ignoring that the one's doing what you say, are the ones you're saying Christians are being mean to.

 

[MercyBurst]

in case things were miscontrued, my question is this: are you saying that continuous sinning is reason to block a person from the church body?

It is ok for them to come to church, but not ok to be a member in good standing.

And then to add, it's my personal opinion that everyone DOES sin, (not did, does), and I have never met anyone who doesn't, so that would make for a weak body, wouldn't it?

Everyone sins, but not everyone repents. Herein lies the problem -- biblical salvation "sans repentence" is not possible, and it should not be misrepresented as christianity. This harms the church body when the false doctrine is spread.

Is it not better to care for them, lead them to Christ's mercy and let Christ Himself convict them towards the changes they may need.

I don't see the soft approach changing anything, rather it reinforces a belief system that says everything is ok when it is not ok. That's a sugar-coated gospel that has no redeeming power. The church body needs protection from this with clear warnings from the bible.

If He wants us to say something, then we should speak up, but I can't imagine Him wanting us to be arrogant, judgemental or hateful with our words.

Neither do I and that's why I refuse to debate here any longer.

PS: love the use of the word gangrenous...i'm totally using that in a sentence today.

Gangrene is an ongoing moral depravity in the church that must be removed.

if so, then should we not include EVERYONE who does this?

absolutely -- this is much bigger than just a gay vs. straight issue. Ther are several church issues that deserve the same scrutiny.

 

[dawnsday]

Well, if you are my sister in Christ, I can't say the same about you.

i meant to say your opinion about what she says is irrelevant, that didn't come out right.

But in case you haven't noticed, you're exhibiting the very behavior that you're saying Christians are being mean with.

I sure was getting there with responding to you, which is why i deleted what i said.

Sure you did. If you had no point to make, there was no need to ask the questions you did.

except maybe because i wanted clarification? you aren't the end all be all zaac and a good person who is able to be considerate of others should not be presuming to know what a person who they don't even know is trying to do or say.

 

[Zaac]

It is ok for them to come to church, but not ok to be a member in good standing.




Everyone sins, but not everyone repents. Herein lies the problem -- biblical salvation "sans repentence" is not possible, and it should not be misrepresented as christianity. This harms the church body when the false doctrine is spread.



I don't see the soft approach changing anything, rather it reinforces a belief system that says everything is ok when it is not ok. That's a sugar-coated gospel that has no redeeming power. The church body needs protection from this with clear warnings from the bible.




Neither do I and that's why I refuse to debate here any longer.



Gangrene is an ongoing moral depravity in the church that must be removed.

if so, then should we not include EVERYONE who does this?

A big hearty AMEN to every response!!!!

 

[Zaac]

except maybe because i wanted clarification? you aren't the end all be all zaac and a good person who is able to be considerate of others should not be presuming to know what a person who they don't even know is trying to do or say.

Dawn, when you want clarification, ask the person to clarify and give them an opportunity to do so.

You don't start assuming that they said something that they did not say, and making assumptions based upon what was never said.

 

[UberLutheran]

It is ok for them to come to church, but not ok to be a member in good standing.

So, MercyBurst -- exactly how do you (and I presume Zaac) plan to go about getting all the gays and lesbians out of all the churches?

This should be a neat trick, considering that there are 35,000 denominations in the U.S. and some 418,000 churches.

 

[Zaac]

So, MercyBurst -- exactly how do you (and I presume Zaac) plan to go about getting all the gays and lesbians out of all the churches?

This should be a neat trick, considering that there are 35,000 denominations in the U.S. and some 418,000 churches.

I attend one church and I imagine Mercy only attends one also. So in that regard the task is not daunting.

But given your numbers, the number still isn't daunting because GOD is able. If every church brings itself into alignment with God's Word and accordingly metes out Church Discipline, it's a small thing.

As He says to the Church at Ephesus, 4Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. 5Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. Rev. 2:4-5

Unless the body does what it is Biblically supposed to do, God will remove His lampstand, and like those seven churches of Revelation, they will not exist after a while.

 

[UberLutheran]

I attend one church and I imagine Mercy only attends one also. So in that regard the task is not daunting.

But given your numbers, the number still isn't daunting because GOD is able. If every church brings itself into alignment with God's Word and accordingly metes out Church Discipline, it's a small thing.

As He says to the Church at Ephesus, 4Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. 5Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. Rev. 2:4-5

Unless the body does what it is Biblically supposed to do, God will remove His lampstand, and like those seven churches of Revelation, they will not exist after a while.

So answer my question: how do you and MercyBurst intend to get all the gays and lesbians out of all the churches in all the denominations?

I'd say you've got your work cut out!

 

[Zaac]

So answer my question: how do you and MercyBurst intend to get all the gays and lesbians out of all the churches in all the denominations?

Has God given a directive to take out all the gays and lesbians?

In helping fellow Christians to spiritually mature, we deal with obedience to God's Word. That's obedience for the gay,lesbian and heterosexual.

If any of the three are engaging in unrepentant sin and it is brought to the attention of the body, there is a Biblical Disciplining process. And if the person, gay or straight does not want to repent and be restored to the Body, they are to be removed.

I'd say you've got your work cut out!

God is STILL able.

 

[UberLutheran]

Has God given a directive to take out all the gays and lesbians?

Leviticus 18:22-30
22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. 23 And you shall not lie with any animal and so make yourself unclean with it, neither shall any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it: it is perversion. 24 Do not make yourselves unclean by any of these things, for by all these the nations I am driving out before you have become unclean, 25 and the land became unclean, so that I punished its iniquity, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you shall keep my statutes and my rules and do none of these abominations, either the native or the stranger who sojourns among you 27 (for the people of the land, who were before you, did all of these abominations, so that the land became unclean), 28 lest the land vomit you out when you make it unclean, as it vomited out the nation that was before you. 29 For everyone who does any of these abominations, the persons who do them shall be cut off from among their people. 30 So keep my charge never to practice any of these abominable customs that were practiced before you, and never to make yourselves unclean by them: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 20:13
13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

OK: there you have it, right in God's Word. Gays and lesbians are to be put to death.

Not "put out of the church". Not "removed from church membership". Gays and lesbians are to be put to death.

You insist on an absolutely literal interpretation of the Scriptures, that the Scriptures are absolutely inerrant and infallible, that God has not changed and that every word of Scripture is absolutely as applicable today as it was 5,000 years ago.

Now -- are you (and others) going to do what God's Word explicitly tells you to do?

YES or NO.

 

[Zaac]

OK: there you have it, right in God's Word. Gays and lesbians are to be put to death.

Not "put out of the church". Not "removed from church membership". Gays and lesbians are to be put to death.

You purposefully wrongly dividing God's Word doesn't change the previous response.

You insist on an absolutely literal interpretation of the Scriptures, that the Scriptures are absolutely inerrant and infallible, that God has not changed and that every word of Scripture is absolutely as applicable today as it was 5,000 years ago.

Now -- are you (and others) going to do what God's Word explicitly tells you to do?

Now--You purposefully wrongly dividing God's Word doesn't change the previous response.

And there is no need to explain to you why the statement above suffices as a response because I know you know why.

 

[UnitedInChrist]

A big hearty AMEN to every response!!!!

Why am I not surprised.

 

[dawnsday]

It is ok for them to come to church, but not ok to be a member in good standing.




Everyone sins, but not everyone repents. Herein lies the problem -- biblical salvation "sans repentence" is not possible, and it should not be misrepresented as christianity. This harms the church body when the false doctrine is spread.



I don't see the soft approach changing anything, rather it reinforces a belief system that says everything is ok when it is not ok. That's a sugar-coated gospel that has no redeeming power. The church body needs protection from this with clear warnings from the bible.




Neither do I and that's why I refuse to debate here any longer.



Gangrene is an ongoing moral depravity in the church that must be removed.



absolutely -- this is much bigger than just a gay vs. straight issue. Ther are several church issues that deserve the same scrutiny.

So, you aren't saying turn your back on them, but obviously those who are in unrepentant sin should not be leaders, teachers, etc, because that would spread and confuse people, so if the church thinks a certain action is sin, they need to make sure that the people other members go to for advice are walking the walk (as best then can, for we all stumble...)...which you included all sins, so if this is what you meant, I am in agreement, that makes a lot of sense.

Perhaps you could make some suggestion as to how these things could be handled, by other church leaders, and members.

 

[MercyBurst]

Why am I not surprised.

I wish I could say your understanding comes from a pure heart.

 

[MercyBurst]

So, you aren't saying turn your back on them, but obviously those who are in unrepentant sin should not be leaders, teachers, etc, because that would spread and confuse people, so if the church thinks a certain action is sin, they need to make sure that the people other members go to for advice are walking the walk (as best then can, for we all stumble...)...which you included all sins, so if this is what you meant, I am in agreement, that makes a lot of sense.

Perhaps you could make some suggestion as to how these things could be handled, by other church leaders, and members.

Jesus gave the full outline for how christians should handle this situation.

 

[UberLutheran]

You purposefully wrongly dividing God's Word doesn't change the previous response.




Now--You purposefully wrongly dividing God's Word doesn't change the previous response.

And there is no need to explain to you why the statement above suffices as a response because I know you know why.

Just as I expected: Cafeteria Christian (picks and chooses which Scriptures are to be followed).

If you're going to be a fundamentalist who believes the Bible is infallible and inerrant and must be read literally, at least have the courage of your convictions to follow the Bible absolutely literally because you believe the Bible is infallible and inerrant.

 

[dawnsday]

Leviticus 18:22-30
22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. 23 And you shall not lie with any animal and so make yourself unclean with it, neither shall any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it: it is perversion. 24 Do not make yourselves unclean by any of these things, for by all these the nations I am driving out before you have become unclean, 25 and the land became unclean, so that I punished its iniquity, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you shall keep my statutes and my rules and do none of these abominations, either the native or the stranger who sojourns among you 27 (for the people of the land, who were before you, did all of these abominations, so that the land became unclean), 28 lest the land vomit you out when you make it unclean, as it vomited out the nation that was before you. 29 For everyone who does any of these abominations, the persons who do them shall be cut off from among their people. 30 So keep my charge never to practice any of these abominable customs that were practiced before you, and never to make yourselves unclean by them: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 20:13
13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

OK: there you have it, right in God's Word. Gays and lesbians are to be put to death.

Not "put out of the church". Not "removed from church membership". Gays and lesbians are to be put to death.

You insist on an absolutely literal interpretation of the Scriptures, that the Scriptures are absolutely inerrant and infallible, that God has not changed and that every word of Scripture is absolutely as applicable today as it was 5,000 years ago.

Now -- are you (and others) going to do what God's Word explicitly tells you to do?

YES or NO.

Leviticus 4:3-5
3 " 'If the anointed priest sins, bringing guilt on the people, he must bring to the LORD a young bull without defect as a sin offering for the sin he has committed. 4 He is to present the bull at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting before the LORD. He is to lay his hand on its head and slaughter it before the LORD. 5

Leviticus 12:1-3
1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Say to the Israelites: 'A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. 3

Leviticus 19:14
14 " 'Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the LORD.

Leviticus 19:20
20 " 'If a man sleeps with a woman who is a slave girl promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment. Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. 21 The man, however, must bring a ram to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting for a guilt offering to the LORD. 22 With the ram of the guilt offering the priest is to make atonement for him before the LORD for the sin he has committed, and his sin will be forgiven.


I suppose if they go by this, then we should follow the passages I posted as well?