Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

[ClementofA]

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Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have ...
biblehub.com/hebrews/10-26.htm
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, Berean Study Bible If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains, Berean Literal Bible For if we sin willingly after we are to receive ...
‎Hebrews 10:26 KJV · ‎Hebrews 10:26 NIV · ‎Hebrews 10:26 Commentaries

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."
"...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me."

Statement of Faith -- Please Read

7 Myths About Universalism


Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

http://tentmaker.org/blog1/universalism/

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

This is enough.

The rest of the post seems to go down some false trail to attempt in vain to prove (as if possible) the very Purpose of God's Word isn't Truth.

 

[ClementofA]

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Woe to those, who are judged in the appointed time, after resurrection, who are or were already judged on earth, and will be cast into the lake of fire after resurrection in shame, never to live , ever, again.

 

[Doug Melven]

Obviously there are times when God can't be found, e.g. while God was hardening Pharoah's heart, while God turned a king into being like an animal in Daniel, just to name a couple examples. Where does God ever say that these people will never find Him? Nowhere. You just assume that, injecting your false notions & interpretations into Scripture where God has not spoken, adding to His words & changing them into something horrific that He never dreamed of, like burning children in fire.

Yes there are times when He can't be found, like when they make really bad decisions.
Proverbs 1:27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
1:30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
1:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

I've rejected Satanic mistranslations & interpretations of men for the truth.

You pick and choose which translations you like, take a Hebrew or Greek word and insert a meaning you prefer over what the writer intended and then you say, "The Scripture says this".

How have you refuted this:

53“Nevertheless, I will restore their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, and along with them your own captivity, 54in order that you may bear your humiliation and feel ashamed for all that you have done when you become a consolation to them. 55“Your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to their former state, and you with your daughters will also return to your former state.

By using Scripture.
Young's Literal Translation Ezekiel 16:46
And thine elder sister is Samaria, she and her daughters, Who is dwelling at thy left hand, And thy younger sister, who is dwelling on thy right hand, is Sodom and her daughters.
Note the translator uses "is" not "was".
Also common sense refutes the idea that Sodom will be restored to its former state.
Its former state was so wicked that God Himself destroyed it.

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Comparison, under Moses' law transgressors were stoned to death.
Of how much sorer punishment, that would be much worse than stoning, will those who reject Christ be thought worthy of.

If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?

God has a third choice. He will not go against our will.
If we accept Him, we get life and blessing.
If we reject Him, we get death and curses.
God gives us choices.
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

 

[ClementofA]

Yes there are times when He can't be found, like when they make really bad decisions.
Proverbs 1:27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
1:30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
1:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
.

That reminds me of this passage:
Because I have sinned against him,
I will bear the LORD’s wrath,
until he pleads my case
and upholds my cause.
He will bring me out into the light;
I will see his righteousness.
(Micah 7:9)

Here's another one Damnationists like to ignore:

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

You pick and choose which translations you like, take a Hebrew or Greek word and insert a meaning you prefer over what the writer intended and then you say, "The Scripture says this"

Who doesn't pick a translation when they quote from an English bible?

By using Scripture.
Young's Literal Translation Ezekiel 16:46
And thine elder sister is Samaria, she and her daughters, Who is dwelling at thy left hand, And thy younger sister, who is dwelling on thy right hand, is Sodom and her daughters.
Note the translator uses "is" not "was".
Also common sense refutes the idea that Sodom will be restored to its former state.
Its former state was so wicked that God Himself destroyed it.

Scripture says God kills & makes alive, He wounds & heals. That's the business He is in. It's what He does. Reason says He killed Sodom to send them to corrective punishment in the afterlife & to spare the world of their wicked ways. And that Love Omnipotent is able, willing, & wants to save them, so He will.

New International Version
Your older sister was Samaria, who lived to the north of you with her daughters; and your younger sister, who lived to the south of you with her daughters, was Sodom.

Sodom was wiped out by fire from God. Yet will be restored:

Ezek.16:53 “Nevertheless, I will restore their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, and along with them your own captivity, 54in order that you may bear your humiliation and feel ashamed for all that you have done when you become a consolation to them. 55“Your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to their former state, and you with your daughters will also return to your former state.

Comparison, under Moses' law transgressors were stoned to death.
Of how much sorer punishment, that would be much worse than stoning, will those who reject Christ be thought worthy of.

Stoning is nothing compared to endless tortures. Even "much sorer" punishment than stoning would be next to nothing compared to endless burnings by fire. So endless hell fire is a myth.

God has a third choice. He will not go against our will.

Then He will let those in heaven have a choice to rebel like the angels who fell. And He'll let those in hell have a choice to repent & be saved.

If we accept Him, we get life and blessing.
If we reject Him, we get death and curses.
God gives us choices.

Who denies that?

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

This OT passage regards this life only. It says nothing about the afterlife.


According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."
"...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me."

Statement of Faith -- Please Read

7 Myths About Universalism


Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

 

[Doug Melven]

Who doesn't pick a translation when they quote from an English bible?

Most of the time you quote from YLT until it doesn't line up with your doctrine.

Here's another one Damnationists like to ignore:

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

I use these verses a lot. His mercies are new every morning. But after a person dies, if he has not accepted Christ, only wrath awaits.

Reason says He killed Sodom to send them to corrective punishment in the afterlife & to spare the world of their wicked ways. And that Love Omnipotent is able, willing, & wants to save them, so He will.

Your reasoning, God did not give Sodom corrective chastisement. He chastises His children. Sodom was not of His children.
According to Revelation 11:8 Sodom is where Jesus was crucified.

Then He will let those in heaven have a choice to rebel like the angels who fell. And He'll let those in hell have a choice to repent & be saved.

Could you provide Scripture that says that?

Who denies that?

You do.
You say everybody will be saved whether they want to be saved or not.

According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."
"...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me."

God has a third choice. He will not go against our will.
If we accept Him, we get life and blessing.
If we reject Him, we get death and curses.
God gives us choices.
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Most of the time you quote from YLT until it doesn't line up with your doctrine.

When someone holds to a false doctrine, tricked by the enemy,
every time they quote Scripture it doesn't line up with the false doctrine.
(unless they pull a phrase or word out of place, to deceive others or even to deceive themselves) ...

All Scripture fits perfectly together in truth, in perfect harmony and righteousness.
Men mess up.

 

[ClementofA]

Most of the time you quote from YLT until it doesn't line up with your doctrine.

I quote from many versions, most often literal versions, i think, of which my favorite is the CLV, and it agrees with me re Ezek.16:46. BTW in the Hebrew text there is no word "is" & that is why KJV has it in italics. Did you know that or need me to tell you?

Ezekiel 16 ויהי came דבר Again the word יהוה of the LORD אלי unto לאמר׃ me, saying,

I use these verses a lot. His mercies are new every morning. But after a person dies, if he has not accepted Christ, only wrath awaits.

Then why don't you believe them, since they oppose what you just said:

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

If you don't mind, i'll stick with Scripture instead of your opinion.

Your reasoning, God did not give Sodom corrective chastisement.

Again, i'll stick with Scripture instead of your opinion.

He chastises His children. Sodom was not of His children.

Love Omnipotent chastises whom He loves (Rv.3:19), which is the whole world (Jn.3:16). Again, i'll stick with Scripture, instead of Melvin's opinions.

Could you provide Scripture that says that?

My comment was not in response to Scripture but your statement that God "will not go against our will." Then i responded:

Then He will let those in heaven have a choice to rebel like the angels who fell. And He'll let those in hell have a choice to repent & be saved.

IOW if what you said is true, then:

Then He will let those in heaven have a choice to rebel like the angels who fell. And He'll let those in hell have a choice to repent & be saved.

Since according to you God won't go against a person's will.

Or do you think in the afterlife God will take away everyone's free will?

Or is it you think God's love has an expiry date like a milk carton.

You do.
You say everybody will be saved whether they want to be saved or not.

I didn't say that. Love Omnipotent can keep offering them salvation until they want to be saved, even if it takes trillions of eons in hell. Mathematically it's impossible they'd reject Him forever.

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." (Jn.12:32)

"Love NEVER fails." (1 Cor. 13:8) T or F

"With God NOTHING is impossible." (Luke 1:37) T or F

"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of ALL MEN, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach." (1 Tim. 4:9-11) (Remember, answer OUT LOUD True or False to each of these statements.)

"At the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of those in heaven, and those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:10:11) T or F

"God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself ALL on earth or in heaven, by making peace through His blood, shed on the cross. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in His sight, without blemish and free from accusation." (Col. 1:19, 21, 22) T or F

In Jesus Christ is "the restoration of ALL, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began." (Acts 3:21) T or F

The Gospel is "good tidings of great joy will be to ALL people." (Luke 2:10) T or F

Believers in Christ are "born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:13) T or F

God appointed Jesus "heir of ALL, and through whom He made the universe." (Heb. 1:2) T or F

"No one can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him." (John 6:44) T or F


"Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of ALL MEN, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for ALL MEN." (Rom. 5:18) T or F

Jesus is "able even to subdue ALL to Himself." (Phil. 3:21) T or F

Jesus came "that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times he might gather together in one ALL in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works ALL according to the counsel of His will." (Eph. 1:10, 11) T or F

"God was in Christ reconciling THE WORLD to Himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors as though God were making His appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: be reconciled to God." (2 Cor. 5:19, 20) T or F

"ALL the nations shall be blessed." (Gal 3:8) T or F

"The Bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives Life to the WORLD." (John 6:33) T or F

Jesus commanded us to be like Himself and His Father: "Love your enemies, bless those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you that you may be sons of your Father in heaven." (Matt. 5:44, 45) True or False

"Creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope, because creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." (Rom. 8:20, 21) T or F

"Since by man came death, by man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam ALL died, even so in Christ ALL shall be made alive." (1 Cor. 15:22) T or F

continued at:

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

"unique" is right - proof is wrong.

 

[Der Alte]

...I didn't say that. Love Omnipotent can keep offering them salvation until they want to be saved, even if it takes trillions of eons in hell. Mathematically it's impossible they'd reject Him forever. . ...

Of course anyone who is in hell will want to be saved. Do you honestly think that those who have rejected God in this life, who have spent any amount of time being punished in hell will suddenly change and become faithful, believing, loving followers of Jesus? I wonder why that doesn't work in this life? Prisons have an 80% recidivism rate. Prison doesn't change them, 80% of those in prison will return.

 

[ClementofA]

Of course anyone who is in hell will want to be saved.

You assume those in "hell" will want to be saved. But offer no Scripture in support of your assumption. Do those in this life who are given over to Satan for destruction (1 Cor.5:4-5; 1 Tim.1:20) always want to be saved? No.

Do you honestly think that those who have rejected God in this life, who have spent any amount of time being punished in hell will suddenly change and become faithful, believing, loving followers of Jesus? I wonder why that doesn't work in this life?

Saul, to whom Jesus said it was hard for him to kick against the goads, was "suddenly change(d) and became (a) faithful, believing, loving follower of Jesus". See also the references above. See also the entire Old Testament & Israel repeatedly turning back to God when He punished them. BTW, whether or not they turn to God "suddenly" or slowly (over trillions of eons, as i said) is beside the point.

Prisons have an 80% recidivism rate. Prison doesn't change them, 80% of those in prison will return.

Jesus is the Saviour, not prison or punishment. Those in prison haven't experienced the miracle of being raised from the dead. Jesus' disciple, Thomas, like many atheists today, refused to believe unless he see Jesus himself & put his hands in His side.

Furthermore, if Lk.16:19-31 is indicative of what transpires in "hell", the lost are getting the Word of God. God is their Saviour, He is omnipresent, even in "hell" & therefore is able to save those in "hell".

Moreover, if there are any 5, 10, or 15 year olds in "hell" who never heard the gospel, who can say they won't hear it & be saved? It is the power of God unto salvation (Rom.1:16; 1 Cor.15:1-4).

----------------------------------



According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."
"...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me."

Statement of Faith -- Please Read

7 Myths About Universalism


Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

http://tentmaker.org/blog1/universalism/

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

 

[Der Alte]

You assume those in "hell" will want to be saved. But offer no Scripture in support of your assumption. Do those in this life who are given over to Satan for destruction (1 Cor.5:4-5; 1 Tim.1:20) always want to be saved? No.

Hey compadre I was quoting you. You said ."I didn't say that. Love Omnipotent can keep offering them salvation until they want to be saved, even if it takes trillions of eons in hell." Are you now saying instead that those in hell will be saved even if they don't want to be?

Saul, to whom Jesus said it was hard for him to kick against the goads, was "suddenly change(d) and became (a) faithful, believing, loving follower of Jesus". See also the references above. See also the entire Old Testament & Israel repeatedly turning back to God when He punished them. BTW, whether or not they turn to God "suddenly" or slowly (over trillions of eons, as i said) is beside the point.
Jesus is the Saviour, not prison or punishment. Those in prison haven't experienced the miracle of being raised from the dead. Jesus' disciple, Thomas, like many atheists today, refused to believe unless he see Jesus himself & put his hands in His side.

Every example you have given or could give is in this life. Not in hell.

Furthermore, if Lk.16:19-31 is indicative of what transpires in "hell", the lost are getting the Word of God. God is their Saviour, He is omnipresent, even in "hell" & therefore is able to save those in "hell

".

Is Luk 16:19-31 factual or only a parable? I thought URs dismissed it as parable. I don't know how many times I have heard that is supposed to represent what happened to the Jews and has nothing to do with the afterlife.

Moreover, if there are any 5, 10, or 15 year olds in "hell" who never heard the gospel, who can say they won't hear it & be saved? It is the power of God unto salvation (Rom.1:16; 1 Cor.15:1-4).

Why limit it to 5-15 year olds?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Every example you have given or could give is in this life. Not in hell.

Many have forgotten
that those who "no longer have any sacrifice for their sin"
cannot later get any sacrifice for their sin.
There is no future redemption.
There is no future atonement.
There is no future crucifixion (or re-crucifixion) of Jesus for their sins,
so no one can escape, ever, their condemnation if they wait until too late (whether alive or dead).
And, contrary to the devil's deceptions, no one can "pay" nor "pray" anyone who has died 'into' heaven - if they died unregenerate, they never are regenerate, they never even get to see heaven, no, not at all.

 

[ClementofA]

Hey compadre I was quoting you. You said ."I didn't say that. Love Omnipotent can keep offering them salvation until they want to be saved, even if it takes trillions of eons in hell." Are you now saying instead that those in hell will be saved even if they don't want to be?

You said those in hell will want to be saved. My point is that while all will eventually want to be saved by their Saviour & be saved, all will not necessarily want to be saved at any given point in time, such as when they first enter hell, which seems to be your assumption.

Every example you have given or could give is in this life. Not in hell.

You're the one who referred to this life. I followed suit.

Is Luk 16:19-31 factual or only a parable? I thought URs dismissed it as parable. I don't know how many times I have heard that is supposed to represent what happened to the Jews and has nothing to do with the afterlife.

I would suppose historically the vast majority of URs & Christians in general consider it not merely a parable.

Why limit it to 5-15 year olds?

Why not & why not address this issue & all the others you didn't address?

 

[Der Alte]

Begin quote

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.
Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily. . .

End quote

It is misleading trying to shift the focus to what pain a person might experience or how long the stoning might take before death. The quoted scripture says nothing about the intensity of the pain or length of the stoning. The contrast is between "dying without mercy" and something worse than "dying without mercy."
.....So as I have repeatedly said Heb 10:28-29 speaks of a punishment worse than death.
What the writer of Hebrews might have believed about God and Love is impossible to know or speculate about.

 

[ClementofA]

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.
Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily. . .
It is misleading trying to shift the focus to what pain a person might experience or how long the stoning might take before death. The quoted scripture says nothing about the intensity of the pain or length of the stoning. The contrast is between "dying without mercy" and something worse than "dying without mercy."
.....So as I have repeatedly said Heb 10:28-29 speaks of a punishment worse than death.
What the writer of Hebrews might have believed about God and Love is impossible to know or speculate about.

Death is not a punishment. Death is the instant of cessation of life in this world. It involves, to the consciousness of the soul, leaving this life for another life, this world for another world & this realm for another.

The "sorer punishment" than capital punishment under "Moses' law" is the point of contrast with those Christ rejectors of whom the writer of Hebrews speaks as deserving of worse punishment.

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

 

[ClementofA]

By using Scripture.
Young's Literal Translation Ezekiel 16:46
And thine elder sister is Samaria, she and her daughters, Who is dwelling at thy left hand, And thy younger sister, who is dwelling on thy right hand, is Sodom and her daughters.
Note the translator uses "is" not "was".
Also common sense refutes the idea that Sodom will be restored to its former state.
Its former state was so wicked that God Himself destroyed it.

There's no "is" in the Hebrew there. That's why your version has the word in italics.

Here's a response from a scholar i know:

"Three sisters, Samaria, Judah, and Sodom.

If Sodom represents Judah, who does Judah represent? If Sodom doesn't represent Judah, and if the prophecy is only about the covenant of Israel, who does Sodom represent? The ten tribes of the northern kingdom? Then who does Samaria represent? (Benjamin?!? -- why the heck would Benjamin not be included in Judah's southern kingdom as usual? -- or is Sodom supposed to represent Benjamin's tribe, of all things, so that Benjamin would be regarded as Judah's older sister, even spiritually??)

If Samaria is only a poetic figure, and thus not the northern ten tribes, who do they represent if the whole thing is only a poetic figure for the twelve tribes of Israel and their covenant? Does Samaria represent Judah instead of the northern ten tribes?

If the whole thing is a poetic figure and nothing other than a poetic figure, who does Judah represent if not Judah? Does Judah represent the ten tribes of the northern kingdom?? -- then who does Samaria poetically represent, the tribes of Judah and Benjamin?!

At some point poeticizing the whole thing leaves nothing of the twelve tribes over; and three sisters leaves one sister unaccounted for if the whole thing is only about the two kingdoms.


The other solution is that Judah represents the southern kingdom (of Judah and Benjamin); Samaria represents the somewhat recently destroyed northern kingdom (of the ten other tribes, splitting off from Judah and thus the younger sister); and Sodom represents the kingdoms of Sodom and its tributary cities, destroyed long ago, but related by family to Abraham through Abraham's brother Lot (and formerly an ally of Abraham's tribe) thus plausibly an older sister."

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Death is not a punishment. Death is the instant of cessation of life in this world. It involves, to the consciousness of the soul, leaving this life for another life, this world for another world & this realm for another.

If someone taught you this,
no wonder so much else is in error.
It is not at all in line with Scripture,
so with this as a 'premise' to begin with,
all that follows must necessarily be in error,
built on sand. ("flesh"/ "carnal" deception in the dark, instead of Spirit/Life/Light)

 

[Der Alte]

Death is not a punishment. Death is the instant of cessation of life in this world. It involves, to the consciousness of the soul, leaving this life for another life, this world for another world & this realm for another.

Wrong! Read the scripture that both you and I posted.

Hebrews 10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?​

"Death without mercy" was certainly a punishment imposed when someone disobeyed the Law of Moses. The phrase "sorer punishment" refers back to something. There is nothing about "Moses law" or "word of 2 or 3 witnesses" which could be considered "punishment" the only thing is this passage which could be considered "τιμωρία/timoria a penalty: - punishment." is "death without mercy."

The "sorer punishment" than capital punishment under "Moses' law" is the point of contrast with those Christ rejectors of whom the writer of Hebrews speaks as deserving of worse punishment.

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

So for those who have "trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace" there is a punishment worse than dying without mercy.