Have we become too 'nice'?

[Andy Broadley]

The question I ask is 'what would happen if one of our local ne'er-do-wells were to wander into our hall on a Sunday morning.'

Pfft.... we know the answer to that one.
They be ushered out as quickly and quietly as possible before anyone got distressed by them

 

[Andy Broadley]

General Booth Enters Into Heaven

Booth led boldly with his big bass drum
(Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?)
The Saints smiled gravely and they said, "He's come,"
(Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?)

Walking lepers followed rank on rank,
Lurching bravos from the ditches dank
Drabs the alleyways and drug fiends pale
Minds still passion ridden, soul flowers frail:
Vermin eaten saints with moldy breath,
Unwashed legions with the ways of Death
(Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?)

Ev'ry slum had sent its half a score
The world round over. (Booth had groaned for more).
Ev'ry banner that the wide world flies
Bloomed with glory and transcendent dyes,
Big voiced lassies made their banjoes bang,
Tranced, fanatical they shrieked and sang;
"Are you? Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?"

Hallelulah! It was queer to see
Bull necked convicts with that land made free.
Loons with trumpets a blare, blare, blare,
On, on, upward thro' the golden air!
(Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?)

Booth died blind and still by Faith he trod,
Eyes still dazzled by the ways of God!
Booth led boldly and he look'd the chief
Eagle countenance in sharp relief,
Beard a-flying, air of high command
Unabated in that holy land.

Jesus came from the court house door,
Stretched his hands above the passing poor.
Booth saw not, but led his queer ones
Round and round the mighty courthouse square.
Yet! in an instant all that blear review
Marched on spotless, clad in raiment new.

The lame were straightened, withered limbs uncurled,
And blind eyes opened on a new, sweet world.
Drabs and vixens in a flash made whole!
Gone was the weasel head, the snout, the jowel
Sages and sibyls now, and athletes clean,
Rulers of empires and of forests green!
The hosts were sandall'd and their wings were fire!
(Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?)

But their noise play'd havoc with the angel choir,
(Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?)
Oh shout Salvation!
It was good to see Kings and Princes by the Lamb set free.
The banjos rattled and the tambourines
Jingling jingl'd in the hands of Queens.

And when Booth halted by the curb for prayer
He saw his Master thro' the flag fill'd air.
Christ came gently with a robe and crown
For Booth the soldier, while the throng knelt down.
He saw King Jesus; they were face to face,
And he knelt a-weeping in that holy place.
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?

​

Read this through a few times.

No mention of reference checks

 

[TheDag]

Pfft.... we know the answer to that one.
They be ushered out as quickly and quietly as possible before anyone got distressed by them

Well you have a bit of work to do over there then don't you. We had a guy come in recently and he was still welcome to have a coffee and food even though he wasn't going to stay. On another occassion when he came he was welcome to put out copies of The Big Issue for our church members to buy. He was most certainly not ushered out. My wife and I continue to befriend him when he comes to church as well as when we pass him in the street and we even make special trips with the sole purpose of visiting him. So be careful before you make sweeping generalised rubbishing comments please that aren't true across the entire army. It may be true in some areas but don't bag out areas that are doing well in this regards.

 

[TheDag]

Read this through a few times.

No mention of reference checks

true but of course that is just a poem not something that can be proven to have actually happened. The only thing from that poem we can be sure about is that William Booth went to heaven. If you like I could try to make up a poem that mentions reference checks. Will you then take it that reference checks should be conducted! Of course not. Let's have a sensible discussion shall we.

 

[Andy Broadley]

true but of course that is just a poem not something that can be proven to have actually happened. The only thing from that poem we can be sure about is that William Booth went to heaven. If you like I could try to make up a poem that mentions reference checks. Will you then take it that reference checks should be conducted! Of course not. Let's have a sensible discussion shall we.

Fine by me.

So lets have some reasons for reference checks being made before someone can become a soldier.

 

[TheDag]

So lets have some reasons for reference checks being made before someone can become a soldier.

I for one wouldn't mind people who aren't christians being prevented from becoming soldiers. After all when you become a soldier you agree to certain things and I've met soldiers who have become soldiers because it looks good to be involved with the salvos. They don't believe Jesus rose from the dead and they have the occasional alcoholic drink. I think something should be done to prevent that kind of thing happening. Certainly anyone may come to the meetings but lets remember that there are standards to be kept when you become an adherant or a soldier and we need to make sure they are being kept.

 

[Andy Broadley]

I for one wouldn't mind people who aren't christians being prevented from becoming soldiers. After all when you become a soldier you agree to certain things and I've met soldiers who have become soldiers because it looks good to be involved with the salvos. They don't believe Jesus rose from the dead and they have the occasional alcoholic drink. I think something should be done to prevent that kind of thing happening. Certainly anyone may come to the meetings but lets remember that there are standards to be kept when you become an adherant or a soldier and we need to make sure they are being kept.

I would like to make two points in response to this post.

First of all, how would a reference check identify if someone is a Christian or not? I can't see how it could.

Secondly, we all know salvationists who have the occasional alcoholic drink, but unless you actually catch someone in a pub with pint in hand, a reference check would achieve little in this area either as the majority of salvationists who do have the occasional tipple do so in a very private and descreet way.

If someone becomes a soldier with no intention of abiding by the Articles of War, or orders and regs, there is no way this would show up in a reference check. That's what soldiership classes are there for. The CO has the opportunity to spend time with the person, get to know them, and identify potential problems.

Who would reference checks be requested from?

What would be asked?

 

[TheDag]

maybe you could check with the people the applicant associates with. Get the CO to talk to them. Some soldiers I've come across made no secret of the fact that they had the odd drink and didn't agree with some of the statements they agree to uphold. I'm one of those annoying people. I tell the truth. If I had been asked about them I would've mentioned the drink.

 

[Andy Broadley]

maybe you could check with the people the applicant associates with. Get the CO to talk to them. Some soldiers I've come across made no secret of the fact that they had the odd drink and didn't agree with some of the statements they agree to uphold. I'm one of those annoying people. I tell the truth. If I had been asked about them I would've mentioned the drink.

OK, except that we have always attracted a great many people from society who have no family and friends. To whom would the CO then turn for these references?

Or do we only seek references for people who can supply them? That would rather defeat the object of the excercise I'm afraid.

What of the loner who has moved to the area from accross the country, who has no family, no friends, and only knows those he/she has met at the Army. I've known plenty of folk like that.

References simply cannot be applied fairly and accross the board. As I recall soldiership classes last for around 12 weeks, ample time for the CO to get to know someone properly.

And let us remember that Orders and Regs are entitled Chosen to be a soldier, not 'Please may I become a soldier?'

Who are we to question and make judgements upon those whom God has called?

 

[InTheFlame]

Mmmmm.... I think some of our corps probably have, yes. Sometimes I'm tempted to think, though, that a few visits to a shelter, soup kitchen or drug rehab centre should be compulsory before anyone becomes a Soldier. Does that make me too 'nice' or not nice enough?

(PS. I think 'nice' is being used in the old, old meaning... once upon a time it simply meant 'precision or fastidiousness', not 'pleasant/enjoyable'. Make sense?)

 

[Andy Broadley]

Mmmmm.... I think some of our corps probably have, yes. Sometimes I'm tempted to think, though, that a few visits to a shelter, soup kitchen or drug rehab centre should be compulsory before anyone becomes a Soldier. Does that make me too 'nice' or not nice enough?

(PS. I think 'nice' is being used in the old, old meaning... once upon a time it simply meant 'precision or fastidiousness', not 'pleasant/enjoyable'. Make sense?)

I think that ITF has (as per usual) got it right with the meaning of the word 'nice', with 'respectability' added to the meaning she gave).

As for the compulsary visit's to the soup kitchens and homeless shelters, I'm not altogether sure that foisting our rookies on people with enough to cope with already is something that the people there would welcomr too much.

However, some element of community service as part of soldiership is not too much to expect. Even if there is no soup Kitchem or homeless shelter exists, there are still Elderly, housebound people in all areas who need visiting, perhaps a little shopping doing, a bit of gardening etc.

Even for those who put in long hours, an hour or two a week is not too much to ask. One of the things I often hear officers saying is that there are so many people who they would like to visit at home, but simply havn't the time.

But the main thrust of my arguements here have been about us getting back to basics in an Evangelical sense.

We seem to have gotten sidetracked a little too much on the references issue (mainly by me it has to be said), when that was not the main point of the OP.

Living a quality life that reflects our faith in front of our family, friends, colleagues etc, is a basic prerequisite for all Christians of all denominations.

But it's not gonna bring too many people through the doors on a Sunday morning. It wil get some, that is for sure, and each one welcomed and valued, but it will not help us win this war we are supposed to be fighting.

Why are corps that used to attract hundreds, now attracting 3 dozen on a good week. I know there are big Corps who still get those kind of numbers but not many of them.

Most of us are struggling.

Why?

Because we forgot to go out there and get them.

We don't go in the pubs any more with the War Cry.

We don't have open air meetings three times every Sunday any more.

We don't go door knocking and meeting people any more.

In short, the point we stopped winning this war was the point where we stopped making a nuisense of ourselves.

 

[InTheFlame]

Hmmmm... I think I agree with you on the basics, but not necessarily on WHAT exactly we should be doing.

I suspect that the SA's main problem in the west is that it worked out that the old methods weren't working too well, and stopped them... but hasn't quite worked out all its NEW methods! But some parts of the SA are. Take a look at the Project 614s in Vancouver and Toronto, for example.

Definitely, we should be out there on the streets. Do we need to haul a band out to a park? Welllll... maybe a bbq and public prayer breakfast would work just as well. Or a prayer tent at the local markets. Or serving coffee at the local gay pride event. From what I've read, the SA was primarily a nuisance to the other churches, NOT the general populace

I've done very little community service in the last couple of years. Add a fulltime job to depression, and sometimes there aint much of me left over! And atm, add in early pregnancy But on the bright side, I have made an effort to get to know the down-and-out types around our suburb, and the non-down-and-outs too! So I feel as though I'm still doing my bit... just.

 

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

What do soldiers do then, exactly?

I'd always figured that soldiership meant a commitment to working with the SA for those who are downtrodden and destitute.

This thread makes me think this may not be the case... :?

FWIW - I'm not a soldier, due to the alcohol AOW. I have thought about it, under the assumption that it meant you'd primarily be doing the 'social work' side of SA if you were a soldier.

I'm a bit confused...

Sasch

 

[Andy Broadley]

Hmmmm... I think I agree with you on the basics, but not necessarily on WHAT exactly we should be doing.

I suspect that the SA's main problem in the west is that it worked out that the old methods weren't working too well, and stopped them... but hasn't quite worked out all its NEW methods! But some parts of the SA are. Take a look at the Project 614s in Vancouver and Toronto, for example.

Definitely, we should be out there on the streets. Do we need to haul a band out to a park? Welllll... maybe a bbq and public prayer breakfast would work just as well. Or a prayer tent at the local markets. Or serving coffee at the local gay pride event. From what I've read, the SA was primarily a nuisance to the other churches, NOT the general populace

I've done very little community service in the last couple of years. Add a fulltime job to depression, and sometimes there aint much of me left over! And atm, add in early pregnancy But on the bright side, I have made an effort to get to know the down-and-out types around our suburb, and the non-down-and-outs too! So I feel as though I'm still doing my bit... just.

As always I think ITF has hit the nail on the head here.

I can't agree that the old ways have had their day entirely, but for sure we have to be at the cutting edge of Evangelism.

The bottom line remains that if we want people to come to church, we have to go out there and find them, because they are not going to come to us.

And as society changes we have to be there with new ideas and new approaches.

What we can't do is sit back and do nothing.

But instead of simply doing away with the 'old ways', lets add to them and back them up with new tactics.

I love the ideas that ITF has come up with, and thats the sort of thing that we should be looking at, IMHO.

As to us only being a nuisence to other churches, I can't agree there.

The Skeleton Army came into being because of the adverse effect we were having on those who made their money from alcohol.

 

[Andy Broadley]

What do soldiers do then, exactly?

I'd always figured that soldiership meant a commitment to working with the SA for those who are downtrodden and destitute.

This thread makes me think this may not be the case... :?

FWIW - I'm not a soldier, due to the alcohol AOW. I have thought about it, under the assumption that it meant you'd primarily be doing the 'social work' side of SA if you were a soldier.

I'm a bit confused...

Sasch

That can certainly be a part of soldiership, althugh I'm not sure if orders and regs makes in compulsary.

But the social aspect of the Army is only one half of it.

IMHO the main requirement of a soldier is to evangelise. To spread the Gospel and to bring people to Jesus.

And the point of this thread is to look at the most effective ways of doing it.

 

[Gwen'sMom]

Andy, when you become a Soldier are you taught how to evengelise or do you just "wing it" on your own? Are you taught how to bring up the subject in conversation?
Also Andy, when you are introduced to an Office how do you greet them? Do you say "Hi Major Smith" or "Hi Bob"? Is there a proper ettiquite? I just want to do things proper.

 

[Andy Broadley]

Andy, when you become a Soldier are you taught how to evengelise or do you just "wing it" on your own? Are you taught how to bring up the subject in conversation?
Also Andy, when you are introduced to an Office how do you greet them? Do you say "Hi Major Smith" or "Hi Bob"? Is there a proper ettiquite? I just want to do things proper.

Hi GwensMom, good to see you.

OK. Evangelism.

It's not directly covered in soldiership classes. You don't exactly 'wing it' on your own so much as learn from those within the corps. I don't think you can be taught it as such as every situation you encounter is gonna be different. There are things you learn as you go along but there are no hard and fast rules about Evangelism, apart from pray first, pray during and pray after. And try and keep it simple.

Jesus said that being a Christian would be hard. he never said it had to be complicated though.

As to your second point, that's something I have to dealwith all the time. I'm Army born and bred and was always taught to respect yur officers and call them by their rank. In fact, I couldn't even tell you the Christian names of the first few officers I can remmeber. And it's kinda stuck with me.

However, officers these days tend to prefer their Christian names.

My present CO is Colonal Ray Kirby. I knew him 25 years ago when he was a Major and my CO at the corps I grew up in. back then everyone called the officer by their rank, so all I ever addressed him as was Major Kirby.

So, when I met him again at my new corps, I automatically called him Colonal Kirby. He isnsists that I should call him Ray (everyone else does), but I just can't do it.

The Captains at the corps my parents attend (the one I grew up in) won't even answer you if you call them captain. they only answer to their Christian name.

So I guess in the main you will find that most officers now prefer their name rather than their rank.

Still don't seem right to me though.

 

[TheDag]

Andy, when you become a Soldier are you taught how to evengelise or do you just "wing it" on your own? Are you taught how to bring up the subject in conversation?
Also Andy, when you are introduced to an Office how do you greet them? Do you say "Hi Major Smith" or "Hi Bob"? Is there a proper ettiquite? I just want to do things proper.

I would say the proper way is to address them how they would prefer to be addressed.

 

[Andy Broadley]

I would say the proper way is to address them how they would prefer to be addressed.

We compromised.

I call him Colonal Ray

 

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

I'm going to start another soldiership thread...