Have all really sinned?

[jasperbound]

Those words were only intended for those who have developed vocabulary and can think. A fetus does not a very good job at that. Does it? How can a fetus repent? He does not even have vocabulary. He can not yet think.

So, "all" does not refer to everybody in existence? That means there are exceptions? Then that's settled. I agree with you then.

 

[jasperbound]

It can be frustrated how people intentionally lack consistency in their logic. Some people refuse to allow "all" to have exemption, yet these people will flip-flop and claim that babies have not sinned, even though the verse says that "all have sinned." In this case, "sinned" is a verb, which is an action word (people should know this from grade school). It's not something they are. It's something they do.
Of course, they see no contradiction in claiming that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" refers to everybody, even children, but that children have not sinned, even though the verse says "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

 

[ChristianWildlife]

jasper,

True. I still think your implying action when it doesn't have to be action by a child right off the bat. It is implied that he is talking to those who comprehend what he is saying. Not talking to children or of children. However, it is still true because we don't become sinners due to sinning, but we begin sinning due to the fact we are born sinners.

"All have sinned" is true becuase we are born into a sin body, without ever commiting a sin at that point.

 

[~HopeFloats~]

Children and Mentally impaired are inoocent yet sinners.. But they have God grace as much as we do.

 

[GenemZ]

So, "all" does not refer to everybody in existence? That means there are exceptions? Then that's settled. I agree with you then.

All have sinned who have lived to sin. Not all have lived to sin. All are born with a sin nature. So, if you live long anough, you will sin as an automatic part of your malfunction.

Its like saying all cars made between July 5th and August 20th at a specific plant will pull to the right when driven. That all cars built those days are pulling to the right on the road right now. But a car that was not driven? And, only placed in the parking lot, and were destroyed? They never pulled to the right on the road. But, if they had survived being destroyed before being driven? They would have pulled to the right.

Likewise.... All have sinned because all are born with a sin nature. All cars that pull to the right have a defect in the steering linkage. And, all men are born defective because of Adam's sin. If some never make it the road of life they will never recognize the defect. But, it was there waiting to be manifested. If they do not live long enough to interact with other souls, they will never know they are having the defect of the sin nature.

Romans 5:12 niv
"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned."

All men sin because we are born sinners. Yet, not all live long enough to manifest what the sin nature will inevitably manifest, if they had. When it speaks of "all have sinned," it speaks in reference to what's inevitable. For that passage was written before you and I were even born, and its speaking to us now, as well.

The baby who dies after a short time was born with a sin nature. But, not enough time was given for the inevitable to take place. Just like that car sitting in the plant parking lot will pull right once it is driven on the road. It has an inbuilt defect that guarantees it will.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[WarriorAngel]

Who created the limbo doctrine to begin with?

Grace and peace, GeneZ

Ok I found it.

"I don't think there is any question about it. Augustine thought that infants who died without baptism were not saved and, hence, entered into eternal condemnation. He may not have thought that they suffered hell fire, and he did say in at least one place that they met with the mildest condemnation. But he is perfectly clear that original sin alone sufficed for eternal condemnation.

A doctine of limbo did not arise until later. He did not even know of baptism of desire. The only alternative to the sacrament of baptism which he saw was martyrdom, such as the Holy Innocents suffered.

Tough doctrine, but that's what he held."

 

[Polycarp1]

Gene's post #65 outlines the doctrine of Original Sin as understood by most of the church since Augustine's time. To quote the old New England Primer, "In Adam's Fall, we sinnéd all."

 

[GenemZ]

Gene's post #65 outlines the doctrine of Original Sin as understood by most of the church since Augustine's time. To quote the old New England Primer, "In Adam's Fall, we sinnéd all."

It was understood by the Church since Apostle Paul's time, sir. Augustine was a follower of Paul's teachings. Jesus also implied we are all with sin.

John 8:7 (New International Version)
"But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

Jesus was quiet confident that there would be no stone throwing that day. When Adam sinned, we all sinned. For the sin nature is passed down in the flesh we inherited from our original father. That is why Jesus could not have a human father!

Romans 7:17-18 (New American Standard Bible)
"So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me (soul), but the doing of the good is not. "


Sticking with fundamentals, GeneZ

 

[Polycarp1]

It was understood by the Church since Apostle Paul's time, sir. Augustine was a follower of Paul's teachings. Jesus also implied we are all with sin.

John 8:7 (New International Version)
"But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

Jesus was quiet confident that there would be no stone throwing that day. When Adam sinned, we all sinned. For the sin nature is passed down in the flesh we inherited from our original father. That is why Jesus could not have a human father!

Romans 7:17-18 (New American Standard Bible)
"So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me (soul), but the doing of the good is not. "


Sticking with fundamentals, GeneZ

I won't disagree with you in the slightest, sir. I suppose what I should have said was that Augustine was the theologian who spelled out in nitpicky detail the concept that Paul's writings strongly imply.