Have all really sinned?

[sawdust]

If that's sarcasm, which I know it is, then I hope you never ever ever correct anybody. Don't want to be a hypocrite.

I was wondering if you had a sense of humour.

And, don't worry, no-one can be corrected unless they are willing to be. There doesn't seem to be much call for that nowadays. It seems people would rather throw their hands in the air and cry foul than actually sit quietly and learn something.

However if you are willing to learn something basic to your premise....

There are two deaths. The first is because of sin. The second is because of evil. Christ paid the penalty of the first death as a substitute for all (and I do mean all, every man, woman and baby).

You want to keep throwing babies into hell (aka lake of fire) for something it was never designed to penalise. Give it some thought.

peace

 

[lilangel04_86]

Great post! I can't believe I overlooked the second half of the verse, which proves that even babies come short of the glory of God. However, I must point out that the verse says that all have sinned, which means that even children still in the womb have sinned.

You can't just take one word from the Bible and use it. You have to read the whole verse and the verse before and after to get the whole context of the scripture. I don't know what your point is babies going to hell. Yes they are born into sin, but they also are innocent until an age of accountability. Which then they must accept Jesus are they will go to hell. In my case I didn't know better until age four. Some people it's different.
If God can sit their and create a delicate baby, don't you think it would tear his heart to see it go to hell because someone had a miscarriage or an abortion, or because some drunk decided to get on the road and hit a man brining his wife and new born child home. Don't you think that his blood would cover them until an age of accountability or can you not accept his mercy and just his punishment.

 

[lilangel04_86]

Babies can not yet think. They can not yet determine right from wrong. Therefore, they can not be held accountable for rejecting Jesus Christ. If God allows a baby to die, then that baby is saved by default. God knows who are his already. He is able to determine who can die before the age of accountability.

That baby, worth much more than a sparrow, can not die outside of God's will. If its God's will when even a sparrow may die?

Matthew 10:31 niv
"So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows."



It has to be God's will to allow a baby's death before reaching the age when they will be held accountable. "The age of accountability."

David put it succinctly when he said of his son who died shortly after birth.


I agree with you.

 

[lilangel04_86]

So, we all have sinned except babies? So it's possible that all does not refer to every single person ever in existence?

All includes them but when they come to an age of accountability. Besides babies can't even talk or comprehend anything when they're born, so how are going to tell anything about God.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Anyone who has ever raised or even dealt with a small child knows that there are two levels to "bad-itude" ... doing wrong out of ignorance, as a little child might, and willful disobedience. One does not punish a three-year-old for doing what he had no clue was a bad thing; one merely stops him/her and tells him/her that it's bad, not to do it again.

One of our Lord's instructions is this:
Matthew 5:48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

There is not a one of us who can say that he or she is as perfect as God the Father.

As to Mary, I personally feel that there are two ways to go wrong, and both involve eisegesis. Catholics, out of respect for our Lord's mother, tend to read everything in a manner which holds her up as ideal. (And they do have a point, on a few things: His addressing her as "woman" was not chiding or disrespectful in the language of the day, though to us it sounds that way.) But on the other hand, we are not supposed to be judging her. Reading into "a prophet is not without honor" the implication that Jesus was condemning his own home life is quite literally reading things into the text that may or may not be there. In any case, the Catholic teaching is that Mary, like the rest of us, needed a Savior; it was merely that, in their understanding, His grace worked "ahead of time" to preserve her sinless, in order that Christ's human body and soul be conceived, carried, and born in a sinless way and from a sinless source.

We need to trust more in God's mercy, and less in our own efforts to confine His grace into the straitjackets of our theology. Yes, Paul said "all." And we have evidence here that children believe. Nobody expects a small child to obtain a doctorate in theology. They believe in proportion to their capacity, and their belief and trust is simple and pure. What does a baby know of its baptism? Who can say? God knows, and He is merciful.

Pope Benedict XVI recently stirred up controversy by suggesting that God's grace may be sufficient for those who die too young to believe, for those who were never aware of baptism, etc. Suppose we humbly accept that we, who all definitely are sinners, are saved by His grace alone, and that He is quite competent to know the hearts of the proverbial 3000 BC tribesman, the guy in the jungle who hasn't heard the Gospel, the child who dies young, and all the rest of the "well, what about..." examples raised to question people's theology.

We know Who saved us, and we have our marching orders from Him. And that includes trusting in Him, and working for Him to teach and to bring peopel to Him.

Babies have one sin...being born into sin.
Which is why Catholics baptize them.
As do Orthodox, I believe.

Mary was sinless...in fact Mary was proclaimed sinless in the beginning.
Once the first couple, whom God made perfect had fallen...God turned to the serpent and said Gen 3; 15
I will put ENMITY {Complete opposition of force...serpent sin, woman not} between the woman, and HER SEED, and your seed.

Her seed being Christ... and Her being Mary His Mother.
NO one else on earth can be considered the complete opposite of sin, because all sin, and all are weak to the flesh.

See how God at that moment prophecies Jesus and puts HIM in the very same league as Mary in being sinless. This is seen by the enmity between the woman AND her SEED.


Look folks, the entire...the whole, the complete Bible has ONE purpose...if Adam and Eve had not sinned it wouldnt have been needed, but the whole writing is for OUR understanding of how God was going to UNDO the sin of the first couple.

This is why the geneology is intact and even maintained thru the flood up til Jesus came {since the first couple}..He lived Incarnate on earth, He died, and He rose.

It is not just history of man's start...but an important evidence that God kept going to SHOW humanity His gr8 love. HW kept His promise even through grief...as men so grieved the Lord in the times of Noe. BUT God doesnt take back a promise.
Promises...as He is faithful, we are not.

And with His mercy...He took the sins of mankind, and nailed them to Himself so we could have hope in salvation.

He gave us the ability to repent and be forgiven.

BUT GOD is not to be measured by human standards...and since He proclaimed the woman and seed in direct opposite of sin and evil and satan...then indeed, He choose to make Mary sinless... it was His choice.

Otherwise, all have sinned... babies have sin only because all of humanity has sin thru the first couple.

Peace!

 

[WarriorAngel]

AS for the Pope he is removing the limbo doctrine...because he feels maybe babies go to heaven by God's Mercy.

This does not remove the need for babies to be baptized.

 

[ascribe2thelord]

Romans 3:23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Some suggest that this verse means that every single individual has sinned, and therefore, Mary cannot have been sinless. If that's the case, do the people who believe that believe that the verse applies to every single individual, including babies? If so, that means that babies are sinners right from conception (all have sinned), and if they die before they reach an age where they can repent, then they die in sin, which probably does not fare well for them, unless a belief in Christ is not the only path to salvation.
So, do the people who believe this verse precludes any exception also believe that all babies, even those who die in birth, are sinners, and consequently, need to repent as much as adults, or else will not end up in Heaven with us?

Some have said that God give us a certain age of accountability after which one must accept the Gospel and be saved. But in my experience, I've chosen not to ask little questions like that. I think we'll find out when it's all said and done. No need to worry about it now, or is there? It's a noble thing to protect a child .. of course but I don't believe that if a child dies he automatically has to go to hell.

 

[jasperbound]

You can't just take one word from the Bible and use it. You have to read the whole verse and the verse before and after to get the whole context of the scripture. I don't know what your point is babies going to hell. Yes they are born into sin, but they also are innocent until an age of accountability. Which then they must accept Jesus are they will go to hell. In my case I didn't know better until age four. Some people it's different.
If God can sit their and create a delicate baby, don't you think it would tear his heart to see it go to hell because someone had a miscarriage or an abortion, or because some drunk decided to get on the road and hit a man brining his wife and new born child home. Don't you think that his blood would cover them until an age of accountability or can you not accept his mercy and just his punishment.

Show me where this age of accountability doctrine is in the Bible. And how could they be innocent if they have sinned, which the Bible says they have done (by interpreting "all" without exception)? Does sinning = innocent?

 

[jasperbound]

All includes them but when they come to an age of accountability. Besides babies can't even talk or comprehend anything when they're born, so how are going to tell anything about God.

Not all babies come to an age of accountability (if such a thing exists). Some die before then.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I always believed that Infants, dying in infancy, including those who are mentally disabled are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, (Luke 18:15-17) who works when, and where, and how He pleases: so also are all others who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word. I have to remember that God is in control and He KNOWS every heart and knows all of us before we were born. Sovereign God is the absolute, infinite, unqualified ruler in all realms in heaven, earth and sea. God is to be Lord over all the creation, He is omnipotent, He is omniscient, He is omnipresent. He knows every little details and He has already planned out our tomorrows and He is holding the world in the palm of His hand. Sovereignty and omnipotence are together that one cannot exist without the other.

Luke 18:15-17
People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

Romans 8:28-29"And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them. For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn, with many brothers and sisters.

The Apostle Paul wrote, “Oh, the depths of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and His paths beyond tracing out!” (Rom 11:33)

“God knows instantly and effortlessly all matters, all mind and every mind, all spirits, all being and every being, all creaturehood and all creatures, every plurality and all pluralities, all law and every law, all relations, all causes, all thoughts, all mysteries, all enigmas, all feeling, all desires, every uttered secret, all thrones and dominions, all personalities, all things visible and invisible in heaven and in earth, motion, space, time, life, death, good, evil, heaven, and hell…” A. W. Tozer

The Bible clearly teaches that God knows beforehand what everyone will need and He will provide beforehand according to His will. Wisdom sees everything in focus and be able to trust God no matter what happens. All God's acts are done in perfect wisdom for His own glory.

 

[GenemZ]

Of course they know right from wrong. All have sinned (active verb there) and fall short of the glory of God. If that includes every single person without exception, then that also includes fetuses.
Does not God not know their hearts? Perhaps that's why He had them die young. Because they wouldn't have repented anyway. Or maybe they did in the womb, even when they didn't a brain or other organs. Again, all have sinned. Nobody is innocent, so stop pretending that anybody is, all right?

I hope you are only playing the devil's advocate. For, that's the only way I can make sense of your thinking.

Of course they do. All have sinned. How many times must I repeat that? ALL!

Those words were only intended for those who have developed vocabulary and can think. A fetus does not a very good job at that. Does it? How can a fetus repent? He does not even have vocabulary. He can not yet think.

I don't care much for your God either. He's too inconsistent and based on wishful thinking and is eager to ignore logical conclusions of certain interpretations and eager to adopt non-biblical ideas (i.e. age of accountability) while probably at the same time, criticizing non-biblical ideas of others (i.e. Mary's assumption into Heaven). I don't care much for hypocritical gods.

Holy cow! I think you're serious.

So, holiness is inconsistency and double standards? Gotcha. Also, all have sinned, which means that no child is innocent.

All are sinners by nature. One can only repent after one has the truths needed to repent with. A fetus, or new born baby, can not even understand language yet.

My version of God is based on reason, not on wishful thinking. I didn't become a Christian just to have HAPPY THOUGHTS.

That's for certain.

eeeeeeeeeew...... where is the exit? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>!

 

[tommiegrant]

The basic idea for the age of accountiblity comes from 2 Samuel chapter 12:15-23.
When David says in verse 32 ' But he is now dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, he shall not return to me." The logical extent of this question is what did David mean? The view is that David expected to see his son again in Heaven after his own death. In Christ, Tom

 

[GenemZ]

AS for the Pope he is removing the limbo doctrine...because he feels maybe babies go to heaven by God's Mercy.

This does not remove the need for babies to be baptized.

Who created the limbo doctrine to begin with?

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

Show me where this age of accountability doctrine is in the Bible. And how could they be innocent if they have sinned, which the Bible says they have done (by interpreting "all" without exception)? Does sinning = innocent?

Here's one example.....

Isaiah 7:14-16 (New International Version)
"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right. But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste."

Up until that point of maturity, he could not choose wrong from right.

That's only one example. I know there are others. Just can not recall where they are.

In Christ, GeneZ

 

[Polycarp1]

AS for the Pope he is removing the limbo doctrine...because he feels maybe babies go to heaven by God's Mercy.

This does not remove the need for babies to be baptized.

Just to set the record straight, because it's been discussed all over the board (N&CE, OBOB) already, the Catholic Church never had a "doctrine of Limbo." It was speculation by leading theologians, including Aquinas, but was never promulgated as doctrine by any Pope or Ecumenical Council (there's a glancing reference to it in one medieval council, but nothing defining it as doctrine).

Nor is what Benedict is doing defining doctrine; he's teaching about God's mercy. "Reversing the church's teaching on Limbo" is a newspaperman's take on that.

 

[Lynn73]

AS for the Pope he is removing the limbo doctrine...because he feels maybe babies go to heaven by God's Mercy.

This does not remove the need for babies to be baptized.

So because the Pope decides to change a doctrine, that changes reality? (No, I don't believe in limbo/purgatory, etc.) I thought you guys said the doctrines of your church never changed. I'd say evidently they do if a Pope from the past declares one thing and a later Pope revokes it.

 

[lilangel04_86]

Not all babies come to an age of accountability (if such a thing exists). Some die before then.

Exactly, and those that haven't come to an age of accountabilty, or don't know any better, have nothing against them.

 

[lilangel04_86]

I thought you guys said the doctrines of your church never changed.

No, doctrines do change. They change with the thinking of man. It's God and his word that will never change. Even if people try to change the meanings of the Bible.

 

[WarriorAngel]

So because the Pope decides to change a doctrine, that changes reality? (No, I don't believe in limbo/purgatory, etc.) I thought you guys said the doctrines of your church never changed. I'd say evidently they do if a Pope from the past declares one thing and a later Pope revokes it.

Dogma's of the faith are set in stone...

And Poly, the doctrine of the Limbo was due to the plaques, when many babies died, the ppl wanted to know if their babies who were not baptized went to heaven.

The Church did not decree the Limbo as dogma, but upon conclusion decided it made doctrinal sense to understand that God would not send a baby to hell nor to purgatory, but the child unbaptized could be saved and at the mercy of God and have eternal Peace outside of understanding.

However; I am going to ride this one out...because it can also be true, yet to find that one out.

Purgatory is dogma. I showed in scripure in another thread..catholic defense.

 

[ChristianWildlife]

We are not sinners because we sin. We sin because we are born sinners.