Have all really sinned?

[jasperbound]

[bible]Romans 3:23[/bible]

Some suggest that this verse means that every single individual has sinned, and therefore, Mary cannot have been sinless. If that's the case, do the people who believe that believe that the verse applies to every single individual, including babies? If so, that means that babies are sinners right from conception (all have sinned), and if they die before they reach an age where they can repent, then they die in sin, which probably does not fare well for them, unless a belief in Christ is not the only path to salvation.
So, do the people who believe this verse precludes any exception also believe that all babies, even those who die in birth, are sinners, and consequently, need to repent as much as adults, or else will not end up in Heaven with us?

 

[jckstraw72]

well the Orthodox understanding is that sin is a sickness that ails all of mankind. In this manner, yes babies are "sinners", but we also do not believe babies have the capacity to choose right or wrong, and therefore although, they suffer from sin they havent necessarily committed their own personal sins. This could also apply to Mary, although for Orthodox it is not dogma that Mary never sinned (you will find a variance of beliefs on this...over in the ancient way i started a thread called "the sinlessness of the Theotokos" recently), but she is certainly the most pure human.

 

[OntheDL]

Greetings,

Yes, all have sinned. Sin is carried through blood. Except for Jesus who was that blameless, without blemish sacrifice of God.

Mary too was a sinner who needed a savior.

Luke 1
46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

The babies do sin naturally. If they die before they reach the age of accountability, the blood of Jesus paid for their sins. They will be called upon at the resurrection to be with Christ in heaven.

Leviticus 4: if anyone sins through igorance, they shall make an animal sacrifice unto the Lord. The blood covers the sins of ignorance/innocence.

 

[OntheDL]

Yes, there is only one way to the Father that is through Christ our savior. But for those who have had not heard the gospel, God judges them by their heart.

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

God is a God of mercy. He judges us according to what has been revealed to us. He knows our heart. For those millions who never heard of Jesus or read the bible, God gave them enough test that He'd be able to conclude if given a chance, wheather they would have followed Him. And that's the good news.

 

[ITBM]

[bible]Romans 3:23[/bible]

Some suggest that this verse means that every single individual has sinned, and therefore, Mary cannot have been sinless. If that's the case, do the people who believe that believe that the verse applies to every single individual, including babies? If so, that means that babies are sinners right from conception (all have sinned), and if they die before they reach an age where they can repent, then they die in sin, which probably does not fare well for them, unless a belief in Christ is not the only path to salvation.
So, do the people who believe this verse precludes any exception also believe that all babies, even those who die in birth, are sinners, and consequently, need to repent as much as adults, or else will not end up in Heaven with us?

The Bible = The Word of God = "all have sinned". Therefore, all have sinned.

Since Mary was a human then she should be included in "all". The only way I could see differently was if it said "All, except Mary, have sinned".

That means all mankind in born into the bondage of sin. So sadly, this means that babies are born codemned under sin. Why is it that eve young babies can learn to control the parents with their crying? Why is that children need to be taught to share but are automatically selfish?

Although the is no direct scritpture to back the doctrinal stance that babies and young children go to heaven I do have my reasons for believing this:
1. Faith is a decision. Babies and young children lack the ability to make that decision for themselves and understand the consequences of their decision.
2. God is merciful. Since God is merciful I think He would accept young children and babies into heaven because they couldn't choose to follow Christ for themselves.

 

[BigNorsk]

Of course Mary was a sinner. Ever read the Bible? Mary wasn't this juiced up perfect saint. She was a lowly maiden.

Jesus' first miracle-get us some more wine so the party can keep going.

Where did Jesus say he was without honor?

Mark 6:1-4 NET
(1) Now Jesus left that place and came to his hometown, and his disciples followed him.
(2) When the Sabbath came, he began to teach in the synagogue. Many who heard him were astonished, saying, "Where did he get these ideas? And what is this wisdom that has been given to him? What are these miracles that are done through his hands?
(3) Isn't this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And aren't his sisters here with us?" And so they took offense at him.
(4) Then Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown, and among his relatives, and in his own house."

And where do you get the ideas that baby's can't repent or believe? Certainly not from the Bible.

Psalms 22:8-10 NET
(8) They say, "Commit yourself to the Lord! Let the Lord rescue him! Let the Lord deliver him, for he delights in him."
(9) Yes, you are the one who pulled me from the womb, and made me feel secure on my mother's breasts.
(10) I have been dependent on you since birth; from the time I came out of my mother's womb you have been my God.

Psalms 71:5-6 NET
(5) For you give me confidence, O sovereign Master; O Lord, I have trusted in you since I was young.
(6) I have leaned on you since birth; you pulled me from my mother's womb. I praise you continually.

Psalms 139:13-16 NET
(13) Certainly you made my mind and heart; you wove me together in my mother's womb.
(14) I will give you thanks because your deeds are awesome and amazing. You knew me thoroughly;
(15) my bones were not hidden from you, when I was made in secret and sewed together in the depths of the earth.
(16) Your eyes saw me when I was inside the womb. All the days ordained for me were recorded in your scroll before one of them came into existence.

Did God weave a mind that could not accept him until it grew up enough? That is a rationalization of the world, that teaches little babes must become adults in order to believe, but the Bible actually teaches adults must become like little babes.

Matthew 18:2-6 NET
(2) He called a child, had him stand among them,
(3) and said, "I tell you the truth, unless you turn around and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven!
(4) Whoever then humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
(5) And whoever welcomes a child like this in my name welcomes me.
(6) "But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a huge millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the open sea.

Jesus called the little ones believers, who are you to say little ones cannot believe? The word for child is the same one used here, so it indicates very young children.

Luke 1:59 NET
(59) On the eighth day they came to circumcise the child, and they wanted to name him Zechariah after his father.

So in order to understand, I think you need to flip your understanding, it will not go well for you unless you become as a little child, not the little child must become like you for it to go well for him.

Marv

 

[Lynn73]

Yes, all have sinned. Even Mary. No exceptions were made for her so we needn't make any.

 

[jckstraw72]

1. Faith is a decision. Babies and young children lack the ability to make that decision for themselves and understand the consequences of their decision.

so they cant decide to accept God (although in Pslams King David said He has known God since on his mothers breast), but they can decide to sin? how does that work?

 

[lilangel04_86]

Some suggest that this verse means that every single individual has sinned, and therefore, Mary cannot have been sinless. If that's the case, do the people who believe that believe that the verse applies to every single individual, including babies? If so, that means that babies are sinners right from conception (all have sinned), and if they die before they reach an age where they can repent, then they die in sin, which probably does not fare well for them, unless a belief in Christ is not the only path to salvation.
So, do the people who believe this verse precludes any exception also believe that all babies, even those who die in birth, are sinners, and consequently, need to repent as much as adults, or else will not end up in Heaven with us

Mary was a human just like us; so she sinned.
A baby doesn't really sin when they are born. They're just born into to it. Which means as they grow they'll have the tendency to naturally lie, steal, ect. We have to teach them what is right and wrong.
As for babies dying. The Bible has never spoken of what happens, but being that he's a merciful God, I don't think he would do that.

 

[jasperbound]

(1) Now Jesus left that place and came to his hometown, and his disciples followed him.
(2) When the Sabbath came, he began to teach in the synagogue. Many who heard him were astonished, saying, "Where did he get these ideas? And what is this wisdom that has been given to him? What are these miracles that are done through his hands?
(3) Isn't this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And aren't his sisters here with us?" And so they took offense at him.
(4) Then Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown, and among his relatives, and in his own house."

Wow. I never knew Mary was so dishonorable to her Son!

Psalms 22:8-10 NET
(8) They say, "Commit yourself to the Lord! Let the Lord rescue him! Let the Lord deliver him, for he delights in him."
(9) Yes, you are the one who pulled me from the womb, and made me feel secure on my mother's breasts.
(10) I have been dependent on you since birth; from the time I came out of my mother's womb you have been my God.

Psalms 71:5-6 NET
(5) For you give me confidence, O sovereign Master; O Lord, I have trusted in you since I was young.
(6) I have leaned on you since birth; you pulled me from my mother's womb. I praise you continually.

Psalms 139:13-16 NET
(13) Certainly you made my mind and heart; you wove me together in my mother's womb.
(14) I will give you thanks because your deeds are awesome and amazing. You knew me thoroughly;
(15) my bones were not hidden from you, when I was made in secret and sewed together in the depths of the earth.
(16) Your eyes saw me when I was inside the womb. All the days ordained for me were recorded in your scroll before one of them came into existence.

I'm not one to always take poetry hyper-literally, but even if I did here, I see nowhere where it says that children have the mental capacity to confess Christ as Lord and repent.

Did God weave a mind that could not accept him until it grew up enough? That is a rationalization of the world, that teaches little babes must become adults in order to believe, but the Bible actually teaches adults must become like little babes.

And he was referring to children still in the womb that die at birth, or he was referring to children that could walk and talk?

So in order to understand, I think you need to flip your understanding, it will not go well for you unless you become as a little child, not the little child must become like you for it to go well for him.

And again, was he referring to children who actually had the mental capacity to believe, or all children, including embryos? How am I supposed to be like an embryo?

 

[jasperbound]

A baby doesn't really sin when they are born. They're just born into to it. Which means as they grow they'll have the tendency to naturally lie, steal, ect. We have to teach them what is right and wrong.
As for babies dying. The Bible has never spoken of what happens, but being that he's a merciful God, I don't think he would do that.

Actually, babies do sin even before they are born, for all have sinned! I don't know how an embryo sins, but they do.

As for babies going to Heaven even though they die in their sin, is it wise for Christians to adopt non-biblical beliefs that are not based on anything biblical?

 

[jasperbound]

God is a God of mercy. He judges us according to what has been revealed to us. He knows our heart. For those millions who never heard of Jesus or read the bible, God gave them enough test that He'd be able to conclude if given a chance, wheather they would have followed Him. And that's the good news.

So, some embryos, fetuses, and babies who died in birth will go to hell?

 

[lilangel04_86]

Actually, babies do sin even before they are born, for all have sinned! I don't know how an embryo sins, but they do.

As for babies going to Heaven even though they die in their sin, is it wise for Christians to adopt non-biblical beliefs that are not based on anything biblical?


No, babies cannot sin before they are born, because they have not entered into the world.
As for them going to hell, if thats what you would wish on an innocent baby, then I'm sorry.

 

[jasperbound]

Actually, babies do sin even before they are born, for all have sinned! I don't know how an embryo sins, but they do.

As for babies going to Heaven even though they die in their sin, is it wise for Christians to adopt non-biblical beliefs that are not based on anything biblical?


No, babies cannot sin before they are born, because they have not entered into the world.
As for them going to hell, if thats what you would wish on an innocent baby, then I'm sorry.

But does not the passage say all? That includes children who never make it out of the womb, does it not?

I don't wish innocent babies to go to hell, but they aren't innocent. They have sinned for all have sinned.

 

[TrueWords]

To all,

It was said here,

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

Notice the part, "and come short of the glory of God"..A infant has a sin nature and therfore cmes short of the glory of God. Though they have not actually sinned by transgression knowingly, they have a SIN nature. In the book of leviticus we read of the sin offering and the tresspass offering. The sin offering seems to be for the sin nature of man and the tresspass offering for actual transgressions. To him that knoweth to do goodand doerth it not to him it is sin. But a infant does not know his right hand from his left. He is ignorant. So he has not actually sinned by transgression. Where no law is there is no transgression and at the times of ignorance God winked. Also sin is not imputed where there is no law. paul said he was without the law once, (refering to his childhood) Romans 7:9 . All children are like this and Christ died for them as well. They have the true Light which lighteth them through the work of Christ on the cross in time John 1:9. They have the free gift given and by it are justified before God. But when sin revives and they hate the lght their sin nature will revive and they will die, spiritually. And need to be born again.

So yes, Mary had a sin nature and yes she was old enough to have sinned by transgression and needed a saviour as she said she rejoiced in God her saviour. God saves from sin. She needed a saviour as all do. So the catholic teaching falls to the ground here.

Amen!!

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

Romans 3:23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Some suggest that this verse means that every single individual has sinned, and therefore, Mary cannot have been sinless. If that's the case, do the people who believe that believe that the verse applies to every single individual, including babies? If so, that means that babies are sinners right from conception (all have sinned), and if they die before they reach an age where they can repent, then they die in sin, which probably does not fare well for them, unless a belief in Christ is not the only path to salvation.
So, do the people who believe this verse precludes any exception also believe that all babies, even those who die in birth, are sinners, and consequently, need to repent as much as adults, or else will not end up in Heaven with us?

Good question. To me, it is like when someone says, everyone loves pizza. It is a generalization. it does not mean that each and every person who ever has been and ever will be actually loves pizza. It is just such a rare occurance that you might as well say everyone loves pizza.

 

[jasperbound]

To all,

It was said here,

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

Notice the part, "and come short of the glory of God"..A infant has a sin nature and therfore cmes short of the glory of God. Though they have not actually sinned by transgression knowingly, they have a SIN nature. In the book of leviticus we read of the sin offering and the tresspass offering. The sin offering seems to be for the sin nature of man and the tresspass offering for actual transgressions. To him that knoweth to do goodand doerth it not to him it is sin. But a infant does not know his right hand from his left. He is ignorant. So he has not actually sinned by transgression. Where no law is there is no transgression and at the times of ignorance God winked. Also sin is not imputed where there is no law. paul said he was without the law once, (refering to his childhood) Romans 7:9 . All children are like this and Christ died for them as well. They have the true Light which lighteth them through the work of Christ on the cross in time John 1:9. They have the free gift given and by it are justified before God. But when sin revives and they hate the lght their sin nature will revive and they will die, spiritually. And need to be born again.

So yes, Mary had a sin nature and yes she was old enough to have sinned by transgression and needed a saviour as she said she rejoiced in God her saviour. God saves from sin. She needed a saviour as all do. So the catholic teaching falls to the ground here.

Amen!!

Great post! I can't believe I overlooked the second half of the verse, which proves that even babies come short of the glory of God. However, I must point out that the verse says that all have sinned, which means that even children still in the womb have sinned.

 

[bloodofthelamb12]

That, my friend, is an excellent question. It was actually a Church Father who first faced that issue; namely, Augustine. He concluded with what must have been great sorrow that yes, infants are condemned in their sin. Many have disagreed, since; as it so happens, I am one of them. I do believe that Mary was a sinner; as I believe all those born of Adam's seed are. But I do not believe that God would condemn a helpless infant.

In the 8th Psalm, David boldly declares of God, "Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings You have ordained strength (praise), because of ones vexing You, to cause the enemy and the avenger to cease." Solomon teaches us in Proverbs 15:26, that "The thoughts of the wicked are very hateful to Jehovah, but the words of the pure are pleasant words." If the words of an infant are pleasing to God, the infant itself must be taken as pure; not by its own virtue, but by God's mercy and compassion. Being innocent, I believe these infants find shelter in the hands of God.

 

[jasperbound]

Being innocent, I believe these infants find shelter in the hands of God.

But they aren't innocent. They have sinned and have therefore fallen short of the glory of God. If sinning = innocent, then what's the point of Christ?

 

[jasperbound]

Good question. To me, it is like when someone says, everyone loves pizza. It is a generalization. it does not mean that each and every person who ever has been and ever will be actually loves pizza. It is just such a rare occurance that you might as well say everyone loves pizza.

Indeed. People (and not just fundamentalists) often forget that the Bible isn't meant to be interpreted hyper-literally and that there are such things as figure of speeches, metaphors, hyperbole, etc. in the writings, for it was written by humans, not a machine.

[bible]Luke 8:37[/bible]

According to that, that means even the newborn babies and the unborn babies in the region said this to Jesus (unless babies aren't people and/or there were no pregnant women or children in the region).