Has Yeshua/Jesus Christ Returned?

solid_core

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and they do not seem to have happened.
I think its easier position to accept that they happened in a way we are not taught today to expect them (more spiritually than physically) than to say that they did not happen in spite of so many promises in the New Testament that disciples in those time will see it.
 
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Albion

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I think its easier position to accept that they happened in a way we are not taught to expect them (more spiritually than physically) than to say that it did not happen in spite of so many promises in the New Testament that disciples in those time will see it.
If that is your conclusion, then it is.

For me, believing that X, Y, and Z would have occurred is more plausible than thinking that the promise alone--that the return would be soon--wipes out all of those.

What's more, these other factors or events are, generally speaking, fairly specific, whereas the time frame we are working with in the promise itself is not very precise.
 
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solid_core

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whereas the time frame we are working with in the promise itself is not very precise.

Its not precise to the day level, but its certain it had to occur in the lifetime of disciples.

Thats why they were said not to fall asleep, but await His return.
 
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Albion

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Its not precise to the day level, but its certain it had to occur in the lifetime of disciples.
Apparently not. But what you are calling certain is really just a statement saying that in "this generation" something will happen...or that people of "this" generation will experience something.

There has been a lot of speculation about all the various ways that turn of phrase can be understood and even how to understand "this."

"Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."
 
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solid_core

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Apparently not. But what you are calling certain is really just a statement saying that in "this generation" something will happen...or that people of "this" generation will experience something.

There has been a lot of speculation about all the various ways that turn of phrase can be understood and even how to understand "this."

It can hardly be reduced to a "one verse problem".

Jesus:
"There are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Mt 16:27
"there are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they see the kingdom of God having come in power. "
Mk 8:38
"there are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the kingdom of God. "
Lk 9:26-27
"...In no wise will ye have completed the cities of Israel, until the Son of man be come."
Mt 10:23
"This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
Mt 24:34
"this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. "
Mk 13:30
"This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. "
Lk 21:22, 26, 32
"...Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. "
Mt 26:64
"O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath about to come? And now also the axe is laid"
Lk 3:7-9
Apostles:
"But this is that having been spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it will be in the last days...the sun will be darkened, moon into blood, blood, fire, vapor..."
Acts 2:16
"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come."
1 Cor. 4:5
"The time is short [the time that remains is short]: Therefore they that have wives be as though they had none"
1 Cor. 7:29-31
Now these things happened to them as types and were written for our admonition, to whom the ends of the ages are arrived.
1Cor 10:11
"Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed..."
1 Cor. 15:51
"Then we the living who remain shall be caught away together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
1 Thessalonians 4:17
"...and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. "
1 Thessalonians 5:23
Revelation:
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must take place shortly."
Rev 1:1
"...the time is near."
Rev 1:3
‘Look, he is coming with the clouds,’ and ‘every eye will see him, even those who pierced him’; and all peoples on earth ‘will mourn because of him.’ So shall it be! Amen.”
Rev 1:7
"…God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must come to pass soon."
Rev 22:6
"Behold, I am coming quickly:"
Rev 22:7
"...Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is near. "
Rev 22:10
"And, behold, I come quickly;"
Rev 22:12
"...Surely I am coming quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."
Rev 22:20
 
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solid_core

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That's true, but that is the most-often cited verse when it comes to this issue.
I think there are "better" verses than this one, for example:

"Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven."
Mt 26:64

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed..."
1 Cor. 15:51

"The time is short [the time that remains is short]: Therefore they that have wives be as though they had none"
1 Cor. 7:29-31

"There are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Mt 16:27

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must take place shortly."
Rev 1:1

The apostle, for example, was so certain that the time is short that he gave practical advice regarding marriage (not to care about their spouse) based upon it.
 
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Albion

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I'd say. as I already have, that you cannot answer this by citing verses without talking about the ones that say certain things will come to pass before the Second Coming.

These have yet to occur, and there is almost no way around that fact for people who want to believe that the Second Coming took place in the first century.
 
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solid_core

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I'd say. as I already have, that you cannot answer this by citing verses without taking about of the ones that say certain things will come to pass before the Second Coming.

They have yet to occur, and there is almost no way around that fact for people who want to believe that the Second Coming took place in that time period.
How can you say those things did not occur when you were not there?

We have only text to cite.
 
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Albion

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How can you say those things did not occur when you were not there?

We have only text to cite.
Yes, text. The word of God.

If that isn't to be believed, nor is history, we're living in a world of our own making.

How, for instance, can this have occurred in the first century and we not know it?

"Then we the living who remain shall be caught away together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
1 Thessalonians 4:17
 
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Running2win

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It all boils down to it's only been a day or two in God's mind. To Deny Jesus will come back as He said He would, or saying He already did is what separates those with faith in God and His word, and those who do not. We see that played out on these forums all the time.

Let both grow together until the harvest, Jesus said. The harvest is coming! Amen! and :amen:

The Tares Explained

36Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.” 37And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. 40“So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43“Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
 
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solid_core

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How, for instance, can this have occurred in the first century and we not know it?
Why should we know it? We live 2,000 years after the event.

Paul was not talking to us when he said "we". He was talking to the church the letter was written to. Logically.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Do you trust what the Apostles said about Yeshua Christ return?

The apostles, fully expected, and taught and encouraged, believers in their day to believe that Yeshua Christ was coming back to them then, on his way, that it was gonna happen soon, and quickly.

If Jesus Christ own Apostles believed this where did they get this information; this inspiration from? They were taught by Yeshua Christ Himself.


If the Apostles where wrong and they misunderstood Yeshua Christ, should we trust anything that they said?


If Yeshua Christ Apostles where wrong about when they said He would return, How can we trust anything about the bible has said?




I'm gonna share some scripture about where it talks about the Lord's coming back then in their day whom were being wrote to, it is up to your own decision to either accept all this information as true or false.


James 5:7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. 8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand (near). 9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned.[a] Behold, the Judge is standing at the door! Who is the Judge?


Hebrews (Written to Jewish Converts) 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. (The same Day that Yeshua Christ is talking about Matthew 24)
26 For if we sin (Deny the Faith/stop having faith in Christ) willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. (27: Is talking about the coming judgement for those who leave the faith or just deny it, as well as the same day that Yeshua Christ is talking about in Matthew 24)


35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:


37 “For yet a little while,
And He[f] who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the[g] just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”
[h] Who will come?


1 John 2:17-18
17 And the world (Age) passeth away (all the old covenant, jewish temple, geneologies), and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever (To believe on the Son of God - Lord Yeshua Christ is the will of God).


18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. (The Last time of the standing Jewish Temple / Old Covneant/ geneologies the Age was going to end)


28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we (they) may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.


1 John 3: 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we (they) shall be like him; for we (they) shall see him as he is.


1 Peter 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall-(will soon short period of time) be revealed:


1 Peter 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd (Yeshua's return) shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.


1 Peter 4:5 5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. Who is coming to Judge?


1 Peter 4: 7 But the end (End of the Jewish temple, covenant, geneologies) of all things is at hand (near): be ye (them) therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.


Luke 21:22 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. (The End of Jeruslem / The end of the Age of those days)


Romans 8: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.


18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall-(short period of time) be revealed in us.




Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.


12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand (near/judgement day): let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


2 Timothy 4:6 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand (paul's death was near at hand).

Anything has to with at it's at hand deals with being near. It's like if you have your phone near you, it's at hand and ready to be grabbed. Or if your reading glasses are right near-by and you grab them, they are at hand.


Is there any place in the bible where you can find the phrase 'and this is also for them at a later time, or in the future'?

Do you think any of this would have been true for them back then?

Or do you think that Yeshua Christ will still come to us now or was it to them then?
Though we await for the day the Lord returns for His Bride on the last day, He has already come in judgment to end the daily sacrifice in 70AD. This ended the age of Temple Judaism which was the fulfillment of Matthew 24. This was a big deal ! Be blessed.
 
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solid_core

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Though we await for the day the Lord returns for His Bride on the last day, He has already come in judgment to end the daily sacrifice in 70AD. This ended the age of Temple Judaism which was the fulfillment of Matthew 24. This was a big deal ! Be blessed.
The problem with this is that neither Jesus nor apostles actually separated the event into two:
a) judging Israel and ending its era
b) all the rest after a long time in between when they will all be long dead

They related the events to happen roughly in the same time. For example Paul wrote to churches that they should prepare for the transformation in clouds, because some of them will be alive in that time.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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The problem with this is that neither Jesus nor apostles actually separated the event into two:
a) judging Israel and ending its era
b) all the rest after a long time in between when they will all be long dead

They related the events to happen roughly in the same time. For example Paul wrote to churches that they should prepare for the transformation in clouds, because some of them will be alive in that time.
Then what is the conclusion?
 
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solid_core

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Then what is the conclusion?
I see only three logical possibilities:

a) the promise given in the New Testament was changed after the New Testament was written
b) the promise failed
c) the promise was fulfilled even though we do not have historical records of its fulfillment (probably because the prepared members of the church were taken and the rest of people did not understand what happened or died in the tribulation)
 
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mlepfitjw

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My question would be,

if the Apostles wrote to the people in the day be sending out the letters we have which indicates that even Paul wrote to the elected exiles forknown by God in that day in 1 Peter 1:1-3.

What’s the point in trusting the Bible of the Apostles were lying about the second coming to the people of that time?

This one of the reasons why the stated questions about the Apostles were mentioned.

Just thinking critically about what you are reading is important for anyone person who enjoys reading.

Another question that comes to my mind is this. Is Yeshua with you now? If your answer is yes. What are we waiting on if we are able to experience Him now in our life? How is Yeshua with you if you answer yes?

Thank you to all who have posted on here and placing your views and opinions out there for us all to see.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Do you trust what the Apostles said about Yeshua Christ return?

The apostles, fully expected, and taught and encouraged, believers in their day to believe that Yeshua Christ was coming back to them then, on his way, that it was gonna happen soon, and quickly.

If Jesus Christ own Apostles believed this where did they get this information; this inspiration from? They were taught by Yeshua Christ Himself.


If the Apostles where wrong and they misunderstood Yeshua Christ, should we trust anything that they said?


If Yeshua Christ Apostles where wrong about when they said He would return, How can we trust anything about the bible has said?




I'm gonna share some scripture about where it talks about the Lord's coming back then in their day whom were being wrote to, it is up to your own decision to either accept all this information as true or false.


James 5:7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. 8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand (near). 9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned.[a] Behold, the Judge is standing at the door! Who is the Judge?


Hebrews (Written to Jewish Converts) 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. (The same Day that Yeshua Christ is talking about Matthew 24)
26 For if we sin (Deny the Faith/stop having faith in Christ) willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. (27: Is talking about the coming judgement for those who leave the faith or just deny it, as well as the same day that Yeshua Christ is talking about in Matthew 24)


35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:


37 “For yet a little while,
And He[f] who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the[g] just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”
[h] Who will come?


1 John 2:17-18
17 And the world (Age) passeth away (all the old covenant, jewish temple, geneologies), and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever (To believe on the Son of God - Lord Yeshua Christ is the will of God).


18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. (The Last time of the standing Jewish Temple / Old Covneant/ geneologies the Age was going to end)


28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we (they) may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.


1 John 3: 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we (they) shall be like him; for we (they) shall see him as he is.


1 Peter 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall-(will soon short period of time) be revealed:


1 Peter 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd (Yeshua's return) shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.


1 Peter 4:5 5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. Who is coming to Judge?


1 Peter 4: 7 But the end (End of the Jewish temple, covenant, geneologies) of all things is at hand (near): be ye (them) therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.


Luke 21:22 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. (The End of Jeruslem / The end of the Age of those days)


Romans 8: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.


18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall-(short period of time) be revealed in us.




Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.


12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand (near/judgement day): let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


2 Timothy 4:6 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand (paul's death was near at hand).

Anything has to with at it's at hand deals with being near. It's like if you have your phone near you, it's at hand and ready to be grabbed. Or if your reading glasses are right near-by and you grab them, they are at hand.


Is there any place in the bible where you can find the phrase 'and this is also for them at a later time, or in the future'?

Do you think any of this would have been true for them back then?

Or do you think that Yeshua Christ will still come to us now or was it to them then?
Well, not exactly. ;) By that I mean that the promise is there...but so also are the other specifics relating to the promise of a Second Coming in, apparently, short order.

As my previous post pointed out, we also have in the NT a number of other things that are supposed to happen at that time, but they do not seem to have happened. So we have to consider all of this before concluding that the Second Coming must have occurred already.
Jesus Himself said that He was returning soon...
...
Matthew 24:34:
Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
(Clearly "this generation" is not the same measure of time as we humans commonly define a generation, but Jesus makes clear that He will come soon..so WATCH...Revelation 3:11 and Revelation 22:7; Revelation 22:12; 22:20). This message is for you personally as well as to all true Christians collectively.

Jesus also says...
...
Matthew 24:27:
For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

AND, the sun, moon and stars signs have obviously not occurred. (Matthew 24:29)

Another comment on some of your citations which you believe are warning of end times you seem according to my faith to be confusing the sufferings and persecutions we face in this world with end times. Remember IITimothy 3:12: In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted...
 
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lsume

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Do you trust what the Apostles said about Yeshua Christ return?

The apostles, fully expected, and taught and encouraged, believers in their day to believe that Yeshua Christ was coming back to them then, on his way, that it was gonna happen soon, and quickly.

If Jesus Christ own Apostles believed this where did they get this information; this inspiration from? They were taught by Yeshua Christ Himself.


If the Apostles where wrong and they misunderstood Yeshua Christ, should we trust anything that they said?


If Yeshua Christ Apostles where wrong about when they said He would return, How can we trust anything about the bible has said?




I'm gonna share some scripture about where it talks about the Lord's coming back then in their day whom were being wrote to, it is up to your own decision to either accept all this information as true or false.


James 5:7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. 8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand (near). 9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned.[a] Behold, the Judge is standing at the door! Who is the Judge?


Hebrews (Written to Jewish Converts) 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. (The same Day that Yeshua Christ is talking about Matthew 24)
26 For if we sin (Deny the Faith/stop having faith in Christ) willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. (27: Is talking about the coming judgement for those who leave the faith or just deny it, as well as the same day that Yeshua Christ is talking about in Matthew 24)


35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:


37 “For yet a little while,
And He[f] who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the[g] just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”
[h] Who will come?


1 John 2:17-18
17 And the world (Age) passeth away (all the old covenant, jewish temple, geneologies), and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever (To believe on the Son of God - Lord Yeshua Christ is the will of God).


18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. (The Last time of the standing Jewish Temple / Old Covneant/ geneologies the Age was going to end)


28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we (they) may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.


1 John 3: 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we (they) shall be like him; for we (they) shall see him as he is.


1 Peter 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall-(will soon short period of time) be revealed:


1 Peter 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd (Yeshua's return) shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.


1 Peter 4:5 5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. Who is coming to Judge?


1 Peter 4: 7 But the end (End of the Jewish temple, covenant, geneologies) of all things is at hand (near): be ye (them) therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.


Luke 21:22 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. (The End of Jeruslem / The end of the Age of those days)


Romans 8: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.


18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall-(short period of time) be revealed in us.




Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.


12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand (near/judgement day): let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


2 Timothy 4:6 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand (paul's death was near at hand).

Anything has to with at it's at hand deals with being near. It's like if you have your phone near you, it's at hand and ready to be grabbed. Or if your reading glasses are right near-by and you grab them, they are at hand.


Is there any place in the bible where you can find the phrase 'and this is also for them at a later time, or in the future'?

Do you think any of this would have been true for them back then?

Or do you think that Yeshua Christ will still come to us now or was it to them then?
What I have found is that a fair amount of New Testament prophesy deals with the born again experience. Christ came to me as a thief in the night over 30 years ago. He has always been faithful and giving. Until you meet Christ yourself and go through the rebirth, what I think should happen is that one must seek and pray without ceasing.
 
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