Has the Age of the Gentiles come to an end?

[mkgal1]

What Josephus said was the abomination of desolation had nothing to do with any temple being destroyed. Remember?

Apparently I didn't remember (and got my chronology confused). I'll admit....this is all new study for me.....I'm still wobbly on dates.

 

[mkgal1]

According to Josephus, antiquities of the Jews, the abomination of desolation was a pig being sacrificed in 167 bc. No temple was destroyed in 167 bc.
Now if Josephus is right and reported the facts as you say then Jesus would be wrong.

Do you have a source for a quote of Josephus that states the temple was destroyed in 167 BC?

I see that was the time of the first Maccabean Revolt....and that did result in Antiochus banning sacrifices in the Temple.

From Westmont college:
"Second Temple Judaism: A Brief Historical Outline--Part Three" Second Temple Judaism: A Brief Historical Outline--Part Three
3.1. The Maccabean Revolt and the Hasmonean Dynasty [167-37 BCE]

167 Antiochus IV issues a decree abolishing Jewish religion.

• He defiles the temple (1 Macc. 1:54-59; 2 Macc. 6:2-5; Dan. 11:31).
• He tortures those who refused to comply.
• Mattathias, an old priest in Modein, N.W. of Jerusalem, refuses to cooperate, kills an idolatrous Jew and flees with his five sons: John, Eleazar, Judas, Jonathan, Simon.
• The Maccabean revolt (and the Hasmonean dynasty) begins. See 1 Macc.2:15-28.
  On the zeal of Phinehas, see Num.25:6-15; Psm.106:28-31; Sir.45:23-24; 1 Macc.2:27, 54.

1 Macc.2:29-38: a band of rebels hiding in the desert are attacked on the Sabbath. They refuse to defend themselves and are slaughtered.
1 Macc.2:39-41: Mattathias and company determine to fight even on Sabbath--they would break the Torah for the sake of Torah.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Do you have a source for a quote of Josephus that states the temple was destroyed in 167 BC?

I see that was the time of the first Maccabean Revolt....and that did result in Antiochus banning sacrifices in the Temple.

From Westmont college:
"Second Temple Judaism: A Brief Historical Outline--Part Three" Second Temple Judaism: A Brief Historical Outline--Part Three
3.1. The Maccabean Revolt and the Hasmonean Dynasty [167-37 BCE]

167 Antiochus IV issues a decree abolishing Jewish religion.

• He defiles the temple (1 Macc. 1:54-59; 2 Macc. 6:2-5; Dan. 11:31).
• He tortures those who refused to comply.
• Mattathias, an old priest in Modein, N.W. of Jerusalem, refuses to cooperate, kills an idolatrous Jew and flees with his five sons: John, Eleazar, Judas, Jonathan, Simon.
• The Maccabean revolt (and the Hasmonean dynasty) begins. See 1 Macc.2:15-28.
  On the zeal of Phinehas, see Num.25:6-15; Psm.106:28-31; Sir.45:23-24; 1 Macc.2:27, 54.

1 Macc.2:29-38: a band of rebels hiding in the desert are attacked on the Sabbath. They refuse to defend themselves and are slaughtered.
1 Macc.2:39-41: Mattathias and company determine to fight even on Sabbath--they would break the Torah for the sake of Torah.

Let me repeat myself. There was no temple destroyed in 167 bc.
Josephus being the true pharisee he was taught that the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, was the sacrifice of a pig in 167 bc which is the same year the sect of the Pharisees came into being.

 

[mkgal1]

According to Josephus, antiquities of the Jews, the abomination of desolation was a pig being sacrificed in 167 bc. No temple was destroyed in 167 bc.
Now if Josephus is right and reported the facts as you say then Jesus would be wrong.

It was an end to their religion for a time.

From link:
The abomination that causes desolation is a term used in the Bible to refer to both the Maccabean Wars in Daniel 11:31 and the Jewish War at the end of the age in the remaining verses. During the Maccabean Wars of the second century B.C., the Greeks attacked Jerusalem causing a great slaughter in the city. The Greeks then set up an idol of Zeus (2 Macc 6:1-2) and sacrificed a pig in the Temple in Jerusalem (1 Macc 1:59; Wars 1.1.2).Prophecy Paradox: The Care for a First Century End Time, 2nd ed., revised (Concord, CA: Son Mountain Press, 2002), 73." title="" aria-describedby="qtip-0" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; outline: none; color: rgb(33, 117, 155);">1 This act is referred to as “a desolating sacrilege” in 1 Macc 1:54 and “the abomination that causes desolation” in Daniel 11:31. The Abomination that Causes Desolation Explained - Revelation Revolution

"2 Maccabees 6 GNT - The Jews Are Persecuted Because of - Bible Gateway" 2 Maccabees 6 GNT - The Jews Are Persecuted Because of - Bible Gateway​

 

[shilohsfoal]

It was an end to their religion for a time.

From link:
The abomination that causes desolation is a term used in the Bible to refer to both the Maccabean Wars in Daniel 11:31 and the Jewish War at the end of the age in the remaining verses. During the Maccabean Wars of the second century B.C., the Greeks attacked Jerusalem causing a great slaughter in the city. The Greeks then set up an idol of Zeus (2 Macc 6:1-2) and sacrificed a pig in the Temple in Jerusalem (1 Macc 1:59; Wars 1.1.2).Prophecy Paradox: The Care for a First Century End Time, 2nd ed., revised (Concord, CA: Son Mountain Press, 2002), 73." title="" aria-describedby="qtip-0" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; outline: none; color: rgb(33, 117, 155);">1 This act is referred to as “a desolating sacrilege” in 1 Macc 1:54 and “the abomination that causes desolation” in Daniel 11:31."The Abomination that Causes Desolation Explained - Revelation Revolution" The Abomination that Causes Desolation Explained - Revelation Revolution​

It was a false commontary y by the Pharisees and taught to Josephus.
Jerusalem was never desolate(without humans,) in 167 bc nor was it desolate in 70 AD.
Roman's continued to stay at Jerusalem after 70 AD.

Aelia Capitolina - Wikipedia

 

[mkgal1]

Jerusalem was never desolate(without humans,) in 167 bc

"Desolate" is in reference to the lack of the presence of God. Jerusalem wasn't without humans in 30 AD either....when Jesus said this:

Matthew 23:37-38
(Luke 13:31-35)

37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! 38Look, your house is left to you desolate.h​

 

[mkgal1]

It was a false commontary y by the Pharisees and taught to Josephus.

2 Maccabees 6 GNT - The Jews Are Persecuted Because of - Bible Gateway

 

[shilohsfoal]

"Desolate" is in reference to the lack of the presence of God. Jerusalem wasn't without humans in 30 AD either....when Jesus said this:

Matthew 23:37-38
(Luke 13:31-35)

37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! 38Look, your house is left to you desolate.h​

Jerusalem will not be desolate till the abomination of desolation is placed in Jerusalem.

 

[shilohsfoal]

2 Maccabees 6 GNT - The Jews Are Persecuted Because of - Bible Gateway

Are you saying the Pharisees were correct and Jesus was wrong?

Both can not be right.
The Pharisees taught it was fulfilled in 167 bc.
Jesus taught it was yet to happen.

Matthew 24:15 So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination of desolation,' described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand),

Who are you going to believe, Jesus or josephus?

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

[Luk 21:24 NASB] 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

[Rom 11:25 NASB] 25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;​

I've seen a lot of prophecy lately that talk about new eras and that the time of the Gentiles has ended (the church age). What are the thoughts of people here on that?

Lana Vawser:
I HEARD THE LORD SAY “PROPHETS I AM INVITING YOU INTO A DEEPER PLACE OF UNDERSTANDING MY WAYS IN THIS MOMENT FOR THE NEW ERA AND MIGHTY SHIFT TAKING PLACE NOW. IT’S IMPORTANT TO LISTEN MORE THAN YOU SPEAK RIGHT NOW”

There is only one “age of the gentiles” in the Bible’s prophecy. It is the age of the four gentile empires named and therefore dated in scripture. Babylon, Medo\Persia, Greek and Roman. The Roman Empire ended in 1453AD when what had been its capitol since 333 AD, Constantinople was conquered and the last Roman emperor killed. These empires ruled over, conquered and oppressed both the old and New Testament saints.

Jerusalem, both the literal city and the Jerusalem from above, the New Jerusalem which is an illustration of the saints of God we’re trampled under foot during that entire age.

The thing that changed all this was the Bible (illegally) getting into the hands of the general public in their own languages which happened in Northern Europe Immediately following the downfall of the Roman Empire. Since that time the nations and people’s most influenced by the Bible have been dominate in the world. They created the free world and every nation and people that have tried to conquer this ever growing free world has failed. This phenomena, prophesied in over 100 chapters of Bible prophecy like the 3 I’l link below is the age the Bible promised would come to the earth from the very beginning. Not a utopia. But an age were the influence of Gods Word and its principles slowly but surely become the dominate influence in the nations among other influences not from God. And age or era where the earthly promises of God made to a hundred generations of saints that were unfulfilled in their generations. Can come to pass in nations that meet the conditions. We are living it out. To bad so many are waiting to check out of planet earth. God never changed his plan. This is what he planned from the beginning. He is in it for the long haul.
The Bride of Christ

 

[mkgal1]

Jerusalem will not be desolate till the abomination of desolation is placed in Jerusalem.

Not according to Jesus. He said Jerusalem was desolate in 30 AD (and it was then destroyed due to the corruption in 70 AD).


Matthew 23:37-38
(Luke 13:31-35)

37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! 38Look, your house is left to you desolate.h

Who are you going to believe, Jesus or josephus?

They're in agreement.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Not according to Jesus. He said Jerusalem was desolate in 30 AD (and it was then destroyed due to the corruption in 70 AD).


Matthew 23:37-38
(Luke 13:31-35)

37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! 38Look, your house is left to you desolate.h


They're in agreement.

It's a prophecy
The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Revelation 17:16 KJV: And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

 

[mkgal1]

Are you saying the Pharisees were correct and Jesus was wrong?

Both can not be right.
The Pharisees taught it was fulfilled in 167 bc.
Jesus taught it was yet to happen.

Matthew 24:15 So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination of desolation,' described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand),

Who are you going to believe, Jesus or josephus?

First off....2 Maccabees is part of our church literature:

"2 Maccabees 1 GNT - A Letter to the Jews in Egypt - From - Bible Gateway" 2 Maccabees 1 GNT - A Letter to the Jews in Egypt - From - Bible Gateway

The Maccabean Revolt did happen in 167-160 BC....and Daniel had written about it.

Jesus was tying the future (to His listeners) destruction in 70 AD to the past....when the Temple had been defiled. Luke was more clear about what those in the first century were to look for:

Luke 21:20 ~ “And when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then you will know that the time of its destruction has arrived.​

 

[shilohsfoal]

First off....2 Maccabees is part of our Bible
"2 Maccabees 1 GNT - A Letter to the Jews in Egypt - From - Bible Gateway" 2 Maccabees 1 GNT - A Letter to the Jews in Egypt - From - Bible Gateway

The Maccabean Revolt did happen in 167-160 BC....and Daniel had written about it.

Jesus was tying the future (to His listeners) destruction in 70 AD to the past....when the Temple had been defiled. Luke was more clear about what those in the first century were to look for:

Luke 21:20 ~ “And when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then you will know that the time of its destruction has arrived.​

Might be part of your bible but it was left out of mine for good cause.

Jesus was speaking of the actual abomination of desolation. Jesus can not lie.
Matthew 24:15 So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination of desolation,' described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand),

The Pharisees were good liers though.
Tell me this since you believe the Pharisees.
Do you believe the Pharisees were wise men?

 

[parousia70]

when the Lamb soon returns and straightens out this eschatological mess, the church has immersed herself in.

Soon returns?
You must mean in another 2000 years "soon" right?

 

[mkgal1]

Jesus was speaking of the actual abomination of desolation. Jesus can not lie.
Matthew 24:15 So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination of desolation,' described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand),

I agree....everything we believe has to be reconciled with the words of Jesus....and Jesus said the following about the timeframe (and Tacitus and Josephus confirm that Jesus was absolutely right). So....are modern-day futurist teachers the ones to believe.....or are the words of Jesus the Truth? My faith is in the Words of Jesus.

Matthew 24:34
Truly I say to you that this generation will not have passed away until all these things shall have taken place​

 

[shilohsfoal]

I agree....everything we believe has to be reconciled with the words of Jesus....and Jesus said the following about the timeframe (and Tacitus and Josephus confirm that Jesus was absolutely right). So....are modern-day futurist teachers the ones to believe.....or are the words of Jesus the Truth? My faith is in the Words of Jesus.

Matthew 24:34
Truly I say to you that this generation will not have passed away until all these things shall have taken place​

You believe this age has ended. Most people don't.
When the stars of heaven fall unto the earth, it will be finished. Until then, everything Jesus said about this generation will continue to be fulfilled.

I don't recall Josephus ever saying the stars fell from the sky or anything the like.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: 'The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.'

 

[mkgal1]

You believe this age has ended. Most people don't.

No....it's not "this age" that i believe has ended.....but I believe the Old Sinai Covenant age has ended (which is what Jesus and His disciples were speaking of) .

The removal of the Temple and the entire Sinai religious system is proof to me of that.

 

[shilohsfoal]

No....it's not "this age" that i believe has ended.....but I believe the Old Sinai Covenant age has ended (which is what Jesus and His disciples were speaking of) .

The removal of the Temple and the entire Sinai religious system is proof to me of that.

There was no temple at Sinai so I'm not sure what system your saying ended.Where is the Sinai temple in the Bible and when was it built?

 

[mkgal1]

I don't recall Josephus ever saying the stars fell from the sky or anything the like.

That's prophetic Hebrew apocalyptic language. It's throughout the old testament....mostly describing God's coming in judgment against nations. One example of a fulfilled prophecy that demonstrates this is when Saul's kingdom was destroyed and David was vindicated.

2 Samuel 22:7-16

(Parallel Psalm 18:1-50)

I cried out to my God.

And from His temple He heard my voice,

and my cry for help reached His ears.8Then the earth shook and quaked;

the foundations of the heavensa trembled;

they were shaken because He burned with anger.9Smoke rose from His nostrils,

and consuming fire came from His mouth;

glowing coals blazed forth.10He parted the heavens and came down

with dark clouds beneath His feet.11He mounted a cherub and flew;

He soaredb on the wings of the wind.12He made darkness a canopy around Him,

a gathering of water and thick clouds.13From the brightness of His presence

coals of firec blazed forth.14The LORD thundered from heaven;

the voice of the Most High resounded.15He shot His arrows and scattered the foes;

He hurled lightning and routed them.16The channels of the sea appeared,

and the foundations of the world were exposed

at the rebuke of the LORD,

at the blast of the breath of His nostrils.

17He reached down from on high and took hold of me;

He drew me out of deep waters.18He rescued me from my powerful enemy,

from foes too mighty for me.
​

Some common apocalyptic metaphors are:

*the destruction of earth
*the bowing of the heavens
*the melting of the mountains like wax
*the blackening of the sun, moon, and stars
*the wiping away of every living thing
*blood as high as the mountains
*the burning of the earth and all that dwell in it (at His presence)
*Etc. etc.

This is known as APOCALYPTIC LANGUAGE, which is used by the prophets to foretell the downfall of nations and individuals by God in history. It is uniquely apocalyptic and hyperbolic in nature.
​