Has God Called Every Person?

PhantomGaze

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Can a man be saved without hearing/reading the gospel?
Well, let's say hypothetically they've never heard of Jesus, they still through General Revelation recognize that they're sinners, and that God exists, so they repent to God and try to live differently, and trust God to find a way to save them. What would you make of that?
 
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98cwitr

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Isaiah 65:12
I will destine you for the sword, and all of you will fall in the slaughter; for I called but you did not answer, I spoke but you did not listen. You did evil in my sight and chose what displeases me.”
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Do I really have to answer that? I think you already know how I would answer that question.

You did say that all people are called, so I had no choice but ask you that. In light of Romans 8:30. . .

"And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
 
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PhantomGaze

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I think the idea of "calling" is dodging the fundamental point. If God genuinely desires all men to be saved. (this is abundantly clear in scripture), and the onus is on him to decide who is and isn't saved, then presumably all men should be saved. If God desires all men to be saved, why would he only elect a few? I would think the calvinist interpretation of Romans 9 is in conflict with 1 Timothy 2 here.
 
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RisenInJesus

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You did say that all people are called, so I had no choice but ask you that. In light of Romans 8:30. . .

"And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
Here you go again leaving out the beginning of the passage and Paul's entire thought. And you are the one who said to read the Bible as a novel keeping the overall picture in mind and not as a reference book taking verses out of context.

I don't have time at the moment to address this further...maybe later.
 
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EmSw

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You did say that all people are called, so I had no choice but ask you that. In light of Romans 8:30. . .

"And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

Let's see about the house of Israel, whom He called.

Isaiah 65:12
I will destine you for the sword, and all of you will fall in the slaughter; for I called but you did not answer, I spoke but you did not listen. You did evil in my sight and chose what displeases me.”

Calling does not automatically justify one. One must answer and listen, then one must not do evil and choose what pleases the Lord.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Here you go again leaving out the beginning of the passage and Paul's entire thought. And you are the one who said to read the Bible as a novel keeping the overall picture in mind and not as a reference book taking verses out of context.

I don't have time at the moment to address this further...maybe later.

Predestination leads to glorification. The chain is unbroken.
 
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OzSpen

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we don't know

Please provide the biblical evidence to support your agnosticism on this point.

We do know how the OT people became saints! Both OT and NT confirm that both OT people and NT people get into the kingdom of God and receive the righteousness of God by faith. I've provided the biblical evidence above.
 
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OzSpen

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I find Enoch interesting. Genesis 5:24


I find Luke 16:19-31 interesting.

Was Abraham in paradise when Christ went to paradise before God raised Him?

We also have Matthew 17:3

Elijah and Moses with Jesus.


BTW I love the rosella Avatar :)

Excellent observations.

Yes, those Aussie rosellas are unique to this country. I see them sometimes in the trees around where I live. They are not as prevalent as the smaller greenie parrot - that's what we call them.

upload_2017-7-20_13-27-23.jpeg
 
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OzSpen

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I think the idea of "calling" is dodging the fundamental point. If God genuinely desires all men to be saved. (this is abundantly clear in scripture), and the onus is on him to decide who is and isn't saved, then presumably all men should be saved. If God desires all men to be saved, why would he only elect a few? I would think the calvinist interpretation of Romans 9 is in conflict with 1 Timothy 2 here.

Heb 3:7-11 (NIRV) provides one answer to this dilemma:

A Warning Against Unbelief
7 The Holy Spirit says,
“Listen to his voice today.
8 If you hear it, don’t be stubborn.
You were stubborn when you opposed me.
You did that when you were tested in the desert.
9 There your people of long ago tested me.
Yet for 40 years they saw what I did.
10 That is why I was angry with them.
I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray.
They have not known my ways.’
11 So when I was angry, I made a promise.
I said, ‘They will never enjoy the rest I planned for them.’ ” (Psalm 95:7–11)​

Oz
 
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I'm_Sorry

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Excellent observations.

Yes, those Aussie rosellas are unique to this country. I see them sometimes in the trees around where I live. They are not as prevalent as the smaller greenie parrot - that's what we call them.

View attachment 201711

Hello from Melbourne! :)
 
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RisenInJesus

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Predestination leads to glorification. The chain is unbroken.

I'm sorry I don't think your golden chain is intact when you leave out important links and then try to connect it to teachings you have been taught by Piper, Sproul or other Calvinists.

You may find these articles very interesting, whether you agree is a different matter:


"The solution seems to lie in the middle ground between Calvinism and Arminianism, which is discovered by letting Paul’s words speak for themselves, which we will look at tomorrow."
Problems with the Calvinistic Ordo Salutis in Romans 8:28-30


"First, we must remember that in Scripture, and especially in Pauline theology, Jesus Christ is the ultimate elect one, and individual people become elect, not through an eternal divine decree from God, but by joining with Christ by faith.

In other words, God does not predestine or elect people to be in Christ; no, God elects Jesus, and by default, all who join with Jesus by faith also become elect as members of the “body of Christ.”

golden-chain-570x315.jpg


Second, we must also recall that election is not to eternal life, but to service.

God does not choose, out of the mass of humanity, some to spend eternity with Him in heaven, while all others are destined for eternal suffering in hell. This is not the biblical teaching of election.

Instead, election is to service, and God chooses some out of the mass of humanity to serve Him or perform certain tasks to accomplish His will in human history."
Romans 8:28-30 and the "Golden Chain of Salvation"
 
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PhantomGaze

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Heb 3:7-11 (NIRV) provides one answer to this dilemma:

A Warning Against Unbelief
7 The Holy Spirit says,
“Listen to his voice today.
8 If you hear it, don’t be stubborn.
You were stubborn when you opposed me.
You did that when you were tested in the desert.
9 There your people of long ago tested me.
Yet for 40 years they saw what I did.
10 That is why I was angry with them.
I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray.
They have not known my ways.’
11 So when I was angry, I made a promise.
I said, ‘They will never enjoy the rest I planned for them.’ ” (Psalm 95:7–11)​

Oz
Doesn't that violate the tenet Irresistible Grace?
 
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jimmyjimmy

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I'm sorry I don't think your golden chain is intact when you leave out important links and then try to connect it to teachings you have been taught by Piper, Sproul or other Calvinists.

You may find these articles very interesting, whether you agree is a different matter:


"The solution seems to lie in the middle ground between Calvinism and Arminianism, which is discovered by letting Paul’s words speak for themselves, which we will look at tomorrow."
Problems with the Calvinistic Ordo Salutis in Romans 8:28-30


"First, we must remember that in Scripture, and especially in Pauline theology, Jesus Christ is the ultimate elect one, and individual people become elect, not through an eternal divine decree from God, but by joining with Christ by faith.

In other words, God does not predestine or elect people to be in Christ; no, God elects Jesus, and by default, all who join with Jesus by faith also become elect as members of the “body of Christ.”

golden-chain-570x315.jpg


Second, we must also recall that election is not to eternal life, but to service.

God does not choose, out of the mass of humanity, some to spend eternity with Him in heaven, while all others are destined for eternal suffering in hell. This is not the biblical teaching of election.

Instead, election is to service, and God chooses some out of the mass of humanity to serve Him or perform certain tasks to accomplish His will in human history."
Romans 8:28-30 and the "Golden Chain of Salvation"

The end of the road is glorification. Where I come from, we call that: saved.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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I think it was EIGHT (if the flood was universal)

God "called out" to Cain -- as to if Cain was CALLED -- I dunno

I agree. My point was that no one came. The call went out, but not even one (apart from Noah) came. No amount of "free will" caused any man to heed the warning and come.

No one raised a hand or walked down to the front of the Arc, with all heads bowed, while the organ played, Just as I Am for 20 minutes straight.

Unless God enables him, no one Can come to Christ. . .
 
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