Harsh wording of actual events

[SBC]

I may or may not believe in Universalism, not saying one way or the other at all, but I will say that I think the Bible uses overly harsh, apocalyptic language for actual events that occur. Such that these events may cause people to stress about them more than they should. Which is much more my stance on the subject.

If you study Scripture you would find the POSITIVE comes FIRST.
A VERY Good creation, for the pleasure of an Eternal Great and Good and Loving God.
Then comes the created mankind's specifics;
....mankind's gifts, (a place to inhabit, food, water, beauty, provisions, etc.)
....responsibilities, (caretaker of his estate, ie earth)
....expectations, (men and women join, populate the earth)
....WARNINGS and the Consequences for mankind's (good or poor) Choices.

These things are most appropriate for a beginner, a toddler Bible, any person to Begin learning About God.

These things are purposed for mankind to have enough information to make an informed decision for which direction / path, "they choose" to be their guide in their earthly life (or not). ie. embrace or reject.

A maturing person, can then further read and discover;
The detailed and graphic consequences for their choices; Good or Bad.

Choose the Good, in the Way of the Lord and Creator, and the consequence is very detailed and graphic.

Reject the Good, in the Way of the Lord and Creator, and the consequence is very
detailed and graphic.

You seem opposed to the latter. Why? When the former AND the latter reveal the WHOLE Truth.

How I base this is that if I believe some Revelation events have already occured...

Well, sort of...
Creation happened.
Holy angels and their heavenly estate created.
Mankind and their earthly estate created.
Corruption happened.
Some angels corrupted heaven and were cast down to earth.
Some angels corrupted the earth and were cast down to hell.
Some men submitted to be forgiven and relieved of the consequence of corruption;
and have experienced heaven, and will experience a renewed earth.
Some men rejected forgiveness and thus are not relieved of the consequences of corruption, and have experienced hell, and will experience destruction.

Revelation is more detailed for that which concerns Gods creations, of which creations are doing what, and where, at a time, corruption of Gods created things, shall be coming to an end.

The beginning was Good and Beautiful.
The duration was a mix, some good, some bad.
The ending shall be horrific in restoring the corruption to good.

Rev.1
[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
[2] Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

well, history can be brutal, but the descriptions in Revelation I would, no offense, find more brutal still.

Good. It is supposed to be horrific. The corruption has been horrific.

And even not, the prophecies of Jesus were pretty ominous, they made people have an urge to repent if they read or heard them,

Actually, Few, compared to the whole of all people.

but we all know that Jesus coming was a much-needed thing

Agree.

and he preached a message of (mostly) peace.

No. He came to preach the Truth. To know the WHOLE Truth. There is One line, and two sides. With God or Against God.
With God is; To know peace, joy, and eternal life is with Him.
Without God is: Death and destruction.

Luke 12
[51] Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

Matt 12
[30] He that is not with me is against me;

God Bless,
SBC

 

[SBC]

Nothing was given to the disciples that wasn't given to us. Understand what "one" means.

Nothing was AFFORDED the disciples that is not AFFORDED saved and born again believers.

John:
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Sometimes in attempting to understand the Scriptures a MAN has to put himself in the Understanding of Gods WAY.

When a MAN does not KNOW HOW to put himself in the Understanding of Gods WAY, what is familiar to a MAN, or otherwise an analogy is helpful.

Analogy;

50 MEN in a room. 50 gifts set on a table before them. A voice is heard. The voice says; I am your Father. I have a gift for each of you. My gift for you is called Salvation.

Now the 50 Men first have to decide; IF the voice IS their Father.
IF they believe the voice IS their Father, they are ENTITLED to go TAKE the gift.
IF they do NOT believe the voice IS their Father, they FORFEIT and lose out to receive the gift.

For those WHO receive the gift - they then receive Blessings for TAKING the gift.
For those WHO rejected the gift - they also lose out on reviving the Blessings that go along with the gift.

For those WHO receive the gift - there are also MORE gifts that will become available for them to TAKE. And also those gifts will come with MORE Blessings for the TAKING of the gifts.

Salvation is a GIFT offered to ALL men; and Taken by men Faithful to God.
Wisdom is a GIFT offered to Faithful men; and Taken by men Faithful to God.
Understanding is a GIFT offered to Faithful men; and Taken by men Faithful to God.
Power is a Gift offered to Faithful men; Taken by men Faithful to God.

John 19
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John 19 is about Jesus speaking of His disciples that have the Word of God in them, and who have TAKEN the gift of salvation, wisdom, understanding, power, truth IN THEM; and thus are prepared to serve Jesus in a manner of teaching and preaching.....
ACCORDING TO; Gods Truth
BECAUSE OF: Gods empowering gifts, of salvation, wisdom, understanding of God
TO; other men of the world
SO THAT; other men might also believe Jesus was sent from God.
SO THAT; other men might also come and take the gifts of salvation, wisdom, power, Gods understanding.

Few men TAKE the gift of salvation.
Many men REJECT the gift of salvation.

And Many men, WHO DO TAKE the gift of salvation...
DO NOT TAKE the gift of Gods Wisdom, Power, and especially Gods Understanding.
(observed daily, even on "Christian" media, pulpits, forums)

God Bless,
SBC

 

[SBC]

Well, it says a lot, because for example, if Revelation DID foretell future events, it could be referring to a not-so-harsh conclusion or ending of life in apocalyptic harshness, if what I said is true.

Revelation does reveal an expectation of future events.

The conclusion IS HARSH.. Don't be afraid of the TRUTH; KNOW the Truth.

In a nutshell, it it quite simple.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[SBC]

Exactly, so we should do what we're told and keep our eyes open for whatever and however God may fulfill his Word. I know you were saying that sarcastically but I believe it TRULY, we DON'T know anything, other than what Jesus has done for us and how we are to respond. How we live as christian can only be debated so far, outside of a few sticky issues, it's quite obvious how we are to respond to Christ. The portions on right living are plain as day. The rest we can speculate about, and we should study thoroughly, but I don't think we will truly know the sequence of events, and what is literal, and what is spiritual, and what has meanings we just never would have dreamed of, until the time is actually here. But we still need to be very familiar with what it says, so as to not be caught of guard.

I would disagree with you on some points.
Jesus IS the TRUTH - absolutely.
Men must make a decision to TRUST and BELIEVE the TRUTH....or not.

"we don't know anything" ? uh; true and not true.

"we" meaning believers have every opportunity TO KNOW and UNDERSTAND the knowledge.

Knowledge is revealed in Scripture - UNDERSTANDING (the paramount KEY) is given to a faithful believer WHO SEEKS the understanding. AND the ONLY ONE who gives an individual the understanding (according to Gods understanding) IS God Himself.

And God precisely DO NOT WANT A MAN TO BE IGNORANT.
And God precisely DOES WANT A MAN TO SEEK HIS UNDERSTANDING.

How can an ignorant man, without Gods understanding, SERVE GOD, according to HIS WAY, if they don't even understand His WAY?

Oh, wait. Ding, ding, ding ~ I know ~
Men 'preach' "their way", while using Jesus' name as their "authority".

You know; "men's way"; "their" interpretations, philosophies, ideals, logical, teaching;
leading people to believe; smacking people in the head, knocking them down, and telling them Jesus just healed them; and people who testify of getting a law suite check or welfare something for nothing government check, have just received Gods financial blessing....

The same whom Jesus says;
Matt 7
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It is not the will of the Father that men be ignorant.
It is the will of the Father that Faithful men TAKE the gifts He has prepared;
WHICH includes (but not limited to) Gods TRUTH, knowledge, wisdom and understanding of Scriptures.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Symph]

I would disagree with you on some points.
Jesus IS the TRUTH - absolutely.
Men must make a decision to TRUST and BELIEVE the TRUTH....or not.

"we don't know anything" ? uh; true and not true.

"we" meaning believers have every opportunity TO KNOW and UNDERSTAND the knowledge.

Knowledge is revealed in Scripture - UNDERSTANDING (the paramount KEY) is given to a faithful believer WHO SEEKS the understanding. AND the ONLY ONE who gives an individual the understanding (according to Gods understanding) IS God Himself.

And God precisely DO NOT WANT A MAN TO BE IGNORANT.
And God precisely DOES WANT A MAN TO SEEK HIS UNDERSTANDING.

How can an ignorant man, without Gods understanding, SERVE GOD, according to HIS WAY, if they don't even understand His WAY?

Oh, wait. Ding, ding, ding ~ I know ~
Men 'preach' "their way", while using Jesus' name as their "authority".

You know; "men's way"; "their" interpretations, philosophies, ideals, logical, teaching;
leading people to believe; smacking people in the head, knocking them down, and telling them Jesus just healed them; and people who testify of getting a law suite check or welfare something for nothing government check, have just received Gods financial blessing....

The same whom Jesus says;
Matt 7
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It is not the will of the Father that men be ignorant.
It is the will of the Father that Faithful men TAKE the gifts He has prepared;
WHICH includes (but not limited to) Gods TRUTH, knowledge, wisdom and understanding of Scriptures.

God Bless,
SBC

You're not getting my meaning, I'm not rallying for ignorance. I'm saying when it comes to prophecy I don't believe the scholars have the correct interpretations, or that we can definitively say we know what they will look like when they are revealed. We can have hunches, and we need to listen to the spirit, but to lock down one view or another and think God is so simple he couldn't have a thousand different meanings we're not seeing or surprises we can't grasp, I think that's giving man too much credit. We don't know as much as we think we do.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

You're not getting my meaning, I'm not rallying for ignorance. I'm saying when it comes to prophecy I don't believe the scholars have the correct interpretations, or that we can definitively say we know what they will look like when they are revealed. We can have hunches, and we need to listen to the spirit, but to lock down one view or another and think God is so simple he couldn't have a thousand different meanings we're not seeing or surprises we can't grasp, I think that's giving man too much credit. We don't know as much as we think we do.

Your claims are contradictory, but you obviously can't see that.

"I don't believe the scholars have the correct interpretations"

a) How to *you* know that? b) That's a very arrogant position to take.

"We don't know as much as we think we do."

a) How do *you* know that? You are certain of all ignorance but your own. What vantage point are you perched high upon that gives you a better perspective that all others? b) That's an arrogant position to take.

 

[Symph]

Your claims are contradictory, but you obviously can't see that.

"I don't believe the scholars have the correct interpretations"

a) How to *you* know that? b) That's a very arrogant position to take.

"We don't know as much as we think we do."

a) How do *you* know that? You are certain of all ignorance but your own. What vantage point are you perched high upon that gives you a better perspective that all others? b) That's an arrogant position to take.

Even my bible tells me not to trust scholars, do you think it's talking about atheistic ones? I have my reasons for my beliefs and they aren't coming from a place of ignorance and I don't have to explain anything to you. And if you wish to call me arrogant because of it, so be it.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Even my bible tells me not to trust scholars, do you think it's talking about atheistic ones? I have my reasons for my beliefs and they aren't coming from a place of ignorance and I don't have to explain anything to you. And if you wish to call me arrogant because of it, so be it.

You claim everyone is ignorant, but you see. If you son't see how arrogant that is. . .

Which version of the Bible do you read? Mine doesn't have the anti-intellectual commandment in it.

 

[SBC]

You're not getting my meaning, I'm not rallying for ignorance. I'm saying when it comes to prophecy I don't believe the scholars have the correct interpretations,

What I'm saying; is the correct "interpretation" is what God "personally" gives a man, NOT what men "personally" devise in their minds, philosophies, logic.

And BTW - a "scholar" is a student, who has chosen a specific thing to diligently study, and "some" therefore rely on them "as experts".
Look how many "rely" on "philosophies of men". Which is to say, reliance on a man who is a "student" of his OWN "mindful-thoughts". Yipes!

WARNING:

Col 1
[8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

or that we can definitively say we know what they will look like when they are revealed.

They who?

We can have hunches, and we need to listen to the spirit, but to lock down one view or another and think God is so simple he couldn't have a thousand different meanings

God have a "thousand different meanings for the same thing" ?

Because God WANTS a man to be confused? eh, nah.

It man who must beware of man, who comes up with a thousand different meaning, that corrupts the Truth of God.

1 Cor

1. [33] For God is not the author of confusion.

The confusion is MEN trying to decide Gods meaning.

we're not seeing or surprises we can't grasp, I think that's giving man too much credit. We don't know as much as we think we do.

I don't give men credit. I give God the credit for having prepared so many gifts for us to TAKE, and be blessed by.

I believe everything in Scripture (ie the knowledge), has its correlating understanding according to Gods understanding, that IS readily available for the faithful man who seeks God to receive it.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Symph]

You claim everyone is ignorant, but you see. If you son't see how arrogant that is. . .

Which version of the Bible do you read? Mine doesn't have the anti-intellectual commandment in it.

This is from 1 Corinthians. Use any translation you like, this is the NIV.

19 Where is the wise person, where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through it's wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to jews and foolishness to gentiles, but to those who God has called, both jew and greeks, Chris the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

What do you think that's talking about Jimmy? I think it's saying people who suppose themselves to be wise teachers or experts about God or religion, are actually fools. And people who follow Christ like fools, are actually wise. I've been foolishly following Christ for years, I don't listen to the "experts" I listen to the Spirit of God, who leads me into all truth, like His Word says He will. Do you think when he's talking about the "wisdom of the world" he means only people who don't identify as christian? Did Jesus say the church was gonna be making him super proud at the end of the age? Did he paint a picture of the majority of Christians getting it right? No he makes it sound like the majority will fall into one of 6 categories of being not effective Christians and only one church was doing it right out of 7. Do you see the church doing all the things Jesus commanded?

Over and OVER again, this idea is reiterated in the bible. "The religious people of the day studied God's law, but did not KNOW God, they did not LOVE God, they studied and studied, and never learned". I don't know why you're so sure that we've done a better job this time around, but I look around and I see things haven't changed much at all in 2000 years. And you're telling me I'm arrogant because of it? Do you believe when the Bible says that the Holy Spirit can teach man and lead him into all truth that he means it? Or was he exaggerating, and should have thrown in "Oh but make sure you check with the popular opinions and theories of the time!". I have my preachers who's teachings I always love, I read C.S. Lewis, I listen to Lennox, I read the word regularly so of what am I ignorant? I never said "everyone got it wrong" But there's a LOT of wrong information floating around about God's word in the christian community and I don't pander to it just because I wanna fit in. I also don't fight against it with brute force. I simply give my opinions and say things like "I wouldn't be so sure about that guys" to get people thinking. Yes very arrogant indeed.

 

[Symph]

What I'm saying; is the correct "interpretation" is what God "personally" gives a man, NOT what men "personally" devise in their minds, philosophies, logic.

And BTW - a "scholar" is a student, who has chosen a specific thing to diligently study, and "some" therefore rely on them "as experts".
Look how many "rely" on "philosophies of men". Which is to say, reliance on a man who is a "student" of his OWN "mindful-thoughts". Yipes!

WARNING:

Col 1
[8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.




I don't give men credit. I give God the credit for having prepared so many gifts for us to TAKE, and be blessed by.

I believe everything in Scripture (ie the knowledge), has its correlating understanding according to Gods understanding, that IS readily available for the faithful man who seeks God to receive it.

God Bless,
SBC

I agree with you actually, I think sometimes Jimmy has a way of kind of... taking the knife to my posts and sort of.. cross examining them, and then this gets me sort of unsure of how to even explain myself. But the thing is, listening to the Holy Spirit isn't listening to your own head. When you find the spirit you know the difference between you and Him, and what the spirit teaches is usually corroborated by coincidental evidences, through prayerful reading we can learn what God wants us to know and I think everyone gets a different piece of the puzzle sort of. Everyone has an angle they can see in the Spirit. But yeah it's just funny, I think we just see things backwards a little. You think the "philosophies" it's warning about wouldn't include like, popular christian commentaries or even historic figures like calvin or whoever it was, I think those CAN be the philosophies it's warning against. But honestly it's 8 in the morning and I'm having debates and I think I just went a little overboard with my response to Jimmy cause I'm too tired to care and that's not good, I think I should get some sleep before I discuss this further with you guys hahaha I want you to know I almost always speak with a smile, all of you. That's why my avatar's like that, I'm not bent out of shape, I just don't mind defending my opinions. You guys are friends God bless!

 

[SBC]

I agree with you actually, I think sometimes Jimmy has a way of kind of... taking the knife to my posts and sort of.. cross examining them, and then this gets me sort of unsure of how to even explain myself. But the thing is, listening to the Holy Spirit isn't listening to your own head. When you find the spirit you know the difference between you and Him, and what the spirit teaches is usually corroborated by coincidental evidences, through prayerful reading we can learn what God wants us to know and I think everyone gets a different piece of the puzzle sort of. Everyone has an angle they can see in the Spirit. But yeah it's just funny, I think we just see things backwards a little. You think the "philosophies" it's warning about wouldn't include like, popular christian commentaries or even historic figures like calvin or whoever it was, I think those CAN be the philosophies it's warning against. But honestly it's 8 in the morning and I'm having debates and I think I just went a little overboard with my response to Jimmy cause I'm too tired to care and that's not good, I think I should get some sleep before I discuss this further with you guys hahaha I want you to know I almost always speak with a smile, all of you. That's why my avatar's like that, I'm not bent out of shape, I just don't mind defending my opinions. You guys are friends God bless!

Pretty much on the same page.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[SBC]

Your claims are contradictory, but you obviously can't see that.

"I don't believe the scholars have the correct interpretations"

I take that as a broad spectrum generalization.

a) How to *you* know that? b) That's a very arrogant position to take.

I take that as a broad generalization from his personal observation.
Not arrogant, but a personal observation.
And I tend to agree with him.

"We don't know as much as we think we do."

I would say many don't. IOW, many IMO, listen, soak it up, but do not verify.

a) How do *you* know that? You are certain of all ignorance but your own. What vantage point are you perched high upon that gives you a better perspective that all others? b) That's an arrogant position to take.

Nah.

IMO, it can be likened to "talking points" of commentators, or "headlines" of news agencies. Whereby people listen, soak it up and repeat it, not having a clue of the whole truth, but willing to defend their position, usually ending, still void of the whole truth, but with name-calling, as if that is sufficient to win an argument.

Scripture is for Knowledge - and teachers are supposed to be teaching the Knowledge - and students are supposed to be Verifying the teaching IN Scripture.

God never gave the power to men to TEACH His Understanding in a fashion for other men to comprehend. Understanding is Gods gift, He gives to individual men.
A "teacher" WHO speaks ABOUT the Understanding of God, CAN be received and satisfactorily discussed among men WHO ALSO have the Understanding of God.

The Disciples selected to teach; received the Understanding of God.
It is the Understanding of Scripture that is paramount.
Even unbelievers want the Understanding- for the purpose to "then" decide "IF" they believe, however that is not the purpose of Gods Understanding, nor can it be used that way.

When the Disciples were "students', learning the Knowledge, they were repeatedly perplexed. A man who is perplexed, unsure, is NOT a man prepared to be a TEACHER.
Once the Disciples received Gods Understanding; IS WHEN their confidence and ability to Serve God became quality, and excellent Servants unto to the Lord.

They themselves, after experiencing Gods Understanding, remark about it and how they also desire that for other believing men.

Col 1
[9] For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

I would say, such things are more FOREIGN to a Believer who regularly attends Church, then not.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Phantasman]

You're not getting my meaning, I'm not rallying for ignorance. I'm saying when it comes to prophecy I don't believe the scholars have the correct interpretations, or that we can definitively say we know what they will look like when they are revealed. We can have hunches, and we need to listen to the spirit, but to lock down one view or another and think God is so simple he couldn't have a thousand different meanings we're not seeing or surprises we can't grasp, I think that's giving man too much credit. We don't know as much as we think we do.

I agree with you. Yet SBC has made many good points when using the Gospel to see "Gods will".

Personally, I believe prophesy ended when Christ came. Angels provided prophesy before the event of Truth. Prophesy is to see future physical events. But prophesy can be clarity of spiritual vision.

Jesus told James:
Then I questioned him: "Lord how may we prophesy to those who ask us to prophesy to them? For there are many who ask us and who look to us to hear an oracle from us."
The Lord answered and said: "Do you not know that the head of prophecy was cut off with John?"
And I said: "Lord, it is not possible to remove the head of prophecy, is it?"
The Lord said to me: "When you come to know what 'head' is, and that prophecy issues from the head, then understand what is the meaning of 'Its head was removed'. I first spoke with you in parables, and you did not understand. Now, in turn, I speak with you openly, and you do not perceive. But it is you who were to me a parable in parables and what is apparent in what are open.- Secret James

When words like "there will come false prophets", this is not prophesy. This is the understanding of mind to see the spiritual battlefield though the truth.

Paul knew this when he said:
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

People wanted a repeat of OT events (prophesies). But what is there to prophesy? And what would it prove?

We don't live according as what is to come (like the Jews), we live by what came and is here now.

Don't let books like Revelations confuse you, or the Apocalypse of Peter distort your definition of spiritual truth. A Christian is saved from much worse than man can imagine, just as their rewards are much greater than they can imagine.

Understanding the MYSTERY of the Gospel defeats all prophesy and visions, and free's you of such.