Harsh wording of actual events

[Left]

I may or may not believe in Universalism, not saying one way or the other at all, but I will say that I think the Bible uses overly harsh, apocalyptic language for actual events that occur. Such that these events may cause people to stress about them more than they should. Which is much more my stance on the subject.

How I base this is that if I believe some Revelation events have already occured... well, history can be brutal, but the descriptions in Revelation I would, no offense, find more brutal still.

And even not, the prophecies of Jesus were pretty ominous, they made people have an urge to repent if they read or heard them, but we all know that Jesus coming was a much-needed thing and he preached a message of (mostly) peace.

 

[Winken]

.....and ???

 

[Left]

.....and ???

Well, it says a lot, because for example, if Revelation DID foretell future events, it could be referring to a not-so-harsh conclusion or ending of life in apocalyptic harshness, if what I said is true.

 

[Winken]

Well, it says a lot, because for example, if Revelation DID foretell future events, it could be referring to a not-so-harsh conclusion or ending of life in apocalyptic harshness, if what I said is true.

YOU think that the Bible is overly harsh. Where in the Bible are we permitted to judge IT?

 

[Left]

YOU think that the Bible is overly harsh. Where in the Bible are we permitted to judge IT?

We don't judge, we interpret. And what I'm saying is that some may interpret the Bible in a harsher manner than the reality of it.

 

[Winken]

We don't judge, we interpret. And what I'm saying is that some may interpret the Bible in a harsher manner than the reality of it.

Some might..... however, the Holy Spirit is the interpreter.

 

[Left]

Some might..... however, the Holy Spirit is the interpreter.

If you are saying that we can trust the Holy Spirit guidance to guide us to the correct conclusions, I disagree, because after all, everyone reaches a different conclusion, and we don't truly know which of these conclusions is correct.

 

[Winken]

If you are saying that we can trust the Holy Spirit guidance to guide us to the correct conclusions, I disagree, because after all, everyone reaches a different conclusion, and we don't truly know which of these conclusions is correct.

The Holy Spirit knows. He can be trusted. "Everyone" cannot be trusted.

 

[JackRT]

We don't judge, we interpret. And what I'm saying is that some may interpret the Bible in a harsher manner than the reality of it.

Good point. But we also must remember that the Bible itself is an interpretation.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Revelation was not preached in the general assembly of the early Church for centuries because it was judged to be too easily misunderstood. It very nearly wasn't included in the canon as a result. And through centuries following, it still did not become part of the general reading to the assembly (as the Gospels, epistles, Psalms, and much of the Old Testament is).

Some of the reformers and their successors view God a bit differently than the early Christians did.

Universalism is not something we can teach, because Christ's words and and the Scriptures are full of warning about what happens if one opposes God. (God won't force anyone to accept forgiveness or mercy.) But God DID say that He Himself desires that ALL men come to repentance and be saved. So at the least, we can pray for every person, known to us or not, to be saved, and at least know that it is in accordance with God's will.

However, ultimately, judgement is in Christ's hands alone, and not something I'm willing to speculate on.

But God is much less an ogre than some Bible teachers make Him out to be.

God be with you.

 

[Symph]

I feel you man, I think the over arching theme here is you think we get images in our heads based on the spiritual visions being presented, and then we see nothing but doom and gloom or only interpret them that way, when in reality they could have a spiritual meaning or not be what we are envisioning, and the future could be less bleak than the average opinion about endtimes prophecy paints it.

Not sure these are the best words but I have always had the sharp impression that God is going to surprise us, and that things will not be as terrifying as we think. But it even says that true believers will "hardly notice" the troubles going on in the world when the tribulations happen. So I get you.

You also mentioned universalism, I take it you also mean you have this feeling we may be surprised how many are saved or that that also is not as bleak as we tend to interpret from scripture? I also agree. I don't get these black and white interpretations the theologian or scholar does when I read the bible, I let the spirit interpret and have come to the conclusion that God is going to do wonderful things we could never imagine and many christians will be shocked at how kind and merciful he truly is. But don't get me wrong, horrible things are coming to the wicked, HORRIBLE things... but I think at the end we'll see that it all makes sense, and the right people made it, and yes I think it will be a shockingly more positive outcome than the traditional view paints it.

 

[Korean-American Christian]

but I think at the end we'll see that it all makes sense, and the right people made it, and yes I think it will be a shockingly more positive outcome than the traditional view paints it.

?

 

[Symph]

?

Meaning we won't see people being punished and thinking "WHY??? WHY??? They don't deserve it!!" Or see people being let in the kingdom going "WHY??? They never got the justice they deserved! Their repentance wasn't full!" No I think we will be saying "Wow God, your judgements ARE right, you DO know our hearts, you ARE a fair and just God"

I see people making statements like they think all these good people are gonna be burning in hell forever, because they didn't hear the message or say the right prayer etc, I don't believe that for a second. I think everyone who has the potential for love and light is going to find Jesus at the end of their journey, and everyone who pretends to be righteous but only cares for themselves will be exposed for what they are, and will not get off scott free.

See sometimes I think people SAY they believe that God's judgements are right and true, but they act like it's because he has such a high standard that it will APPEAR to us like he's been really mean and cruel and unfair, but we just have to remember he's right. And I'm saying I think even to US it will appear that his judgements are right and true, I don't think we'll have to play some mental gymnastics to make sense of his decisions, I think His decisions will just make sense.

 

[Korean-American Christian]

I think everyone who has the potential for love and light is going to find Jesus at the end of their journey, and everyone who pretends to be righteous but only cares for themselves will be exposed for what they are, and will not get off scott free.

I concur, my dear brother Symph

 

[Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4]

I may or may not believe in Universalism, not saying one way or the other at all, but I will say that I think the Bible uses overly harsh, apocalyptic language for actual events that occur. Such that these events may cause people to stress about them more than they should. Which is much more my stance on the subject.

How I base this is that if I believe some Revelation events have already occured... well, history can be brutal, but the descriptions in Revelation I would, no offense, find more brutal still.

And even not, the prophecies of Jesus were pretty ominous, they made people have an urge to repent if they read or heard them, but we all know that Jesus coming was a much-needed thing and he preached a message of (mostly) peace.

Because Jesus come as servant , now he will come as Lion

 

[jimmyjimmy]

when in reality they could have a spiritual meaning or not be what we are envisioning, and the future could be less bleak than the average opinion about endtimes prophecy paints it.

I don't think that Hell is a place of literal flames, but if Christ used that language, did He not intend to paint a picture for us of a spiritual reality? Hell may not be literal flames, but it's at least as bad as that. If not, we accuse Christ is lying to us.

 

[Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4]

I don't think that Hell is a place of literal flames, but if Christ used that language, did He not intend to paint a picture for us of a spiritual reality? Hell may not be literal flames, but it's at least as bad as that. If not, we accuse Christ is lying to us.

No , both saved and not saved get resurrection and for not saved it's eternal damnation . Mark 9:48

 

[~Anastasia~]

Our God Himself is said to be "a consuming fire". And in the eschaton, those who hate Him won't be able to be anywhere He is not, won't be able to fully escape His presence. Not only that, but the God who IS love will love them, in spite of their rejection of Him. But they, having been formed by lives opposed to God, will have perverted themselves from the image of God that man was originally created with, and they will be unable to enjoy His presence and love, and experience it as fiery torment instead.



God isn't some offended tyrant who creates a fiery place of torment in which to forever imprison everyone who doesn't agree with Him (God forbid!). He is the same God revealed to us in Christ Jesus, the one who IS agape-love and desires all men, created in His image, to be saved, desires to heal us utterly from the effects of sin, which sicken our spirits, and restore us all to His original and glorious plan for mankind as His beloved creation. But we have a say in whether that happens or not. Christ's warnings of torment were accurate, but it is not torment for the sake of somehow salving God's offended anger. It is torment we create for ourselves, by what we make ourselves into.

 

[Korean-American Christian]

if Revelation DID foretell future events, it could be referring to a not-so-harsh conclusion

The Bible very clearly states that everyone who has a relationship with Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord will be with God forever.

Those who do not have a relationship with Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord will be separated from God forever.

Separation from God = Hell

Separation from God = eternal suffering

Hell is a place of eternal suffering because people choose to reject a relationship with Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord

 

[Korean-American Christian]

If you are saying that we can trust the Holy Spirit guidance to guide us to the correct conclusions, I disagree, because after all, everyone reaches a different conclusion, and we don't truly know which of these conclusions is correct.

You don't believe in the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

Everyone who has a close relationship with Jesus Christ is guided by the Holy Spirit.

There is only one correct way to interpret the Bible - we must interpret the Bible the way God intended for us to interpret the Bible.

We must know the divine Author's intent