Harsh wording of actual events

[OzSpen]

We don't judge, we interpret. And what I'm saying is that some may interpret the Bible in a harsher manner than the reality of it.

TF,

You did that in the OP with your statement: 'History can be brutal, but the descriptions in Revelation I would, no offense, find more brutal still'.

You made a judgmental interpretation here.

Oz

 

[Left]

TF,

You did that in the OP with your statement: 'History can be brutal, but the descriptions in Revelation I would, no offense, find more brutal still'.

You made a judgmental interpretation here.

Oz

I don't think I did. But to debate this is to simply debate linguistics, as I can get my points across in a way people "don't have problems with" in saying "people may interpret Revelation too harshly" by changing the post with enough work.

Okay, I may be a little judgemental. But only to the extent of saying "The Bible is a very old book with old language." I will say that.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Which brings me back to what I was saying, I see history repeating itself. I see a lot of christians I think have the potential to be on the wrong side of this due to their ignorance of the true meaning of the scriptures. You seem to be saying "we've got it covered, we know what it means this time around" and I'm saying "I wouldn't be so sure about that.."

If that's the case, then no one knows anything.

 

[Blade]

Hmm.. I agree..yet what we see is the fruit of sin. Everything SIN touches or of sin = death. That is the payment. That is the wages one gets for sin. Sickness.. and the like.. the wages of sin. That we were born in to. Yet.. when born from above. born again.. our SPIRIT is new.. as the word says.. what is born of GOD can not sin. So many miss that. I use to. Well my flesh was not born again... my spirit was. my spirit can not sin..something to dig into..

Jesus over came the world. If we would just BELIEVE that GOD/Jesus/Sweet sweet Holy Spirit can not lie...we would have no problems with FAITH. God can not lie. So we see we know what is HERE now and what is coming.. but.. we have no fear..no worry.. like Salvation.. JESUS gave us HIS peace..not like that which is in the world.. but HIS peace. One HAS to believe.. one has to like salvation.. receive it..by faith..

If we believe what can touch hurt this world can do the same to us.. then that is what will happen. God can not go against HIS word. One has to read HIS word.. then YOU must believe it or not. Was it written for them only or for all? Can 1k fall on one side and 10k fall on your other side and NOT touch you? haha.. JESUS is real.. JESUS has over come this world.. He died.. we did.. He rose we did.. do you understand? It IS finished. He has the keys now.. death can not touch you.. you die.. its faster then a blink.. your with the Father.. death can not touch you.

Pray.. keep reading.. BELIEVE..and He will guide you where to go where not to go. You will ALWAYS have a peace about it..if its from Him. There is nothing to worry about.. do you know ALL those that came before us LONGED to be here during time? Do you KNOW why you are here now and not back then? Random was it? Toss of the dice maybe? HAHA....no... out of all of them in the past.. YOU were picked to be here now..ASK HIM. Because YOU can handle it..you CAN do what HE wants you and only you can do.

Your GOD is your Father... and EVERYTHING He does is GOOD....so no matter what it looks like sounds like feels like.. just trust Him..have faith. READ the word.. it BUILDS your faith

 

[Symph]

If that's the case, then no one knows anything.

Exactly, so we should do what we're told and keep our eyes open for whatever and however God may fulfill his Word. I know you were saying that sarcastically but I believe it TRULY, we DON'T know anything, other than what Jesus has done for us and how we are to respond. How we live as christian can only be debated so far, outside of a few sticky issues, it's quite obvious how we are to respond to Christ. The portions on right living are plain as day. The rest we can speculate about, and we should study thoroughly, but I don't think we will truly know the sequence of events, and what is literal, and what is spiritual, and what has meanings we just never would have dreamed of, until the time is actually here. But we still need to be very familiar with what it says, so as to not be caught of guard.

 

[Symph]

Hmm.. I agree..yet what we see is the fruit of sin. Everything SIN touches or of sin = death. That is the payment. That is the wages one gets for sin. Sickness.. and the like.. the wages of sin. That we were born in to. Yet.. when born from above. born again.. our SPIRIT is new.. as the word says.. what is born of GOD can not sin. So many miss that. I use to. Well my flesh was not born again... my spirit was. my spirit can not sin..something to dig into..

Jesus over came the world. If we would just BELIEVE that GOD/Jesus/Sweet sweet Holy Spirit can not lie...we would have no problems with FAITH. God can not lie. So we see we know what is HERE now and what is coming.. but.. we have no fear..no worry.. like Salvation.. JESUS gave us HIS peace..not like that which is in the world.. but HIS peace. One HAS to believe.. one has to like salvation.. receive it..by faith..

If we believe what can touch hurt this world can do the same to us.. then that is what will happen. God can not go against HIS word. One has to read HIS word.. then YOU must believe it or not. Was it written for them only or for all? Can 1k fall on one side and 10k fall on your other side and NOT touch you? haha.. JESUS is real.. JESUS has over come this world.. He died.. we did.. He rose we did.. do you understand? It IS finished. He has the keys now.. death can not touch you.. you die.. its faster then a blink.. your with the Father.. death can not touch you.

Pray.. keep reading.. BELIEVE..and He will guide you where to go where not to go. You will ALWAYS have a peace about it..if its from Him. There is nothing to worry about.. do you know ALL those that came before us LONGED to be here during time? Do you KNOW why you are here now and not back then? Random was it? Toss of the dice maybe? HAHA....no... out of all of them in the past.. YOU were picked to be here now..ASK HIM. Because YOU can handle it..you CAN do what HE wants you and only you can do.

Your GOD is your Father... and EVERYTHING He does is GOOD....so no matter what it looks like sounds like feels like.. just trust Him..have faith. READ the word.. it BUILDS your faith

I LOVE that attitude. Exactly, familiarize yourself with everything in the bible, but FOCUS on following it's directions and cultivating a very close relationship with the Holy Spirit, and then you'll just have a guide to lead you through the end times, and you can just watch and see where God takes you

 

[Symph]

I don't think I did. But to debate this is to simply debate linguistics, as I can get my points across in a way people "don't have problems with" in saying "people may interpret Revelation too harshly" by changing the post with enough work.

Okay, I may be a little judgemental. But only to the extent of saying "The Bible is a very old book with old language." I will say that.

I got what you meant, your wording did kind of come across that way UNTIL I read through the whole post, and then it was clear to me, you didn't mean the bible was "too harsh" like "God made a mistake and should have made it less harsh" You meant "It sounds harsher to our ears than maybe it really is" and when you said it "sounds more brutal" it was the same thing, you meant it sounds brutal to US. It makes US afraid. I didn't get the feeling you were making judgements on God at all.

 

[OzSpen]

I don't think I did. But to debate this is to simply debate linguistics, as I can get my points across in a way people "don't have problems with" in saying "people may interpret Revelation too harshly" by changing the post with enough work.

Okay, I may be a little judgemental. But only to the extent of saying "The Bible is a very old book with old language." I will say that.

There's no "old language" in my NIV, NIRV, NLT, ESV, NRSV, etc.

 

[curiouskay]

I may or .,.,.,.,,., but we all know.,,.,.,.,,.,..,

(Mal 3:5 KJV) And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

(Deu 1:16 KJV) And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

(Deu 24:19 KJV) When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands.

(Deu 24:20 KJV) When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

(Deu 24:21 KJV) When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

(Jer 7:6 KJV) If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:

(Jer 22:3 KJV) Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.

(Zec 7:10 KJV) And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.

(Exo 22:21 KJV) Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

(Lev 19:34 KJV) But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

(Lev 25:35 KJV) And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee.

(Deu 1:16 KJV) And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

(Deu 10:18 KJV) He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.

(Exo 23:9 KJV) Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

(Deu 10:19 KJV) Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

-
(Mal 3:5 KJV) And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

(Deu 1:16 KJV) And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

(Deu 24:19 KJV) When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands.

(Deu 24:20 KJV) When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

(Deu 24:21 KJV) When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

(Jer 7:6 KJV) If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:

(Jer 22:3 KJV) Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.

(Zec 7:10 KJV) And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.

(Exo 22:21 KJV) Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

(Lev 19:34 KJV) But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

(Lev 25:35 KJV) And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee.

(Deu 1:16 KJV) And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

(Deu 10:18 KJV) He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.

(Exo 23:9 KJV) Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

(Deu 10:19 KJV) Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

-.

 

[curiouskay]

Hi -

 

[Symph]

Hi -

Hi! That was a large amount of verses about being good to strangers.... I found it highly informative. Thank you.

 

[curiouskay]

You are welcome /.\
May you and yours
live long and prosper​

-​

 

[Phantasman]

If you are saying that we can trust the Holy Spirit guidance to guide us to the correct conclusions, I disagree, because after all, everyone reaches a different conclusion, and we don't truly know which of these conclusions is correct.

Disagree. Weak faith in spiritual understanding see's different conclusions. Following men and their doctrines is not following the Holy Spirit. Jesus didn't lie when he said:

John:
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John:
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John:
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The biggest reason the world cannot see the Holy Spirit is because they think physically and have little understanding of spiritual truth brought and died for by the son of God the Father. The spirit is not going to testify of the OT. It testifies of Christ.

The word "Holy Ghost" appears almost 90 times, only in the Christian scriptures. No time in the OT.


To misuse it to teach Christs Gospel brings man to confusion by the author of confusion. Christ and only Christ spoke truth, because the Holy Ghost was within him.

John:
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Men and churches have resorted to the physical thinking of the OT which gives them earthly power. Christs kingdom (kingdom of God) is not of this earth. His firrst words says:

Matthew:
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Thomas:
Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

Paul:
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

When you combine the Gospels, they create a better understanding. Only man can convince you to follow him instead of the spirit of truth. Don't blame the perfect spirit on mans ignorance.

 

[Symph]

Disagree. Weak faith in spiritual understanding see's different conclusions. Following men and their doctrines is not following the Holy Spirit. Jesus didn't lie when he said:

John:
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John:
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John:
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The biggest reason the world cannot see the Holy Spirit is because they think physically and have little understanding of spiritual truth brought and died for by the son of God the Father. The spirit is not going to testify of the OT. It testifies of Christ.

The word "Holy Ghost" appears almost 90 times, only in the Christian scriptures. No time in the OT.


To misuse it to teach Christs Gospel brings man to confusion by the author of confusion. Christ and only Christ spoke truth, because the Holy Ghost was within him.

John:
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Men and churches have resorted to the physical thinking of the OT which gives them earthly power. Christs kingdom (kingdom of God) is not of this earth. His firrst words says:

Matthew:
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Thomas:
Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

Paul:
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

When you combine the Gospels, they create a better understanding. Only man can convince you to follow him instead of the spirit of truth. Don't blame the perfect spirit on mans ignorance.

*applauds* *Bravo* *encore*

 

[jimmyjimmy]

he shall teach you all things

Who is the, "you" Christ is addressing?

 

[Phantasman]

Who is the, "you" Christ is addressing?

His sheep.

John:
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Christs message is clear, as I said above. Drop the OT. because Jesus says "ALL who came before him".

There is one door. Christ. If you try to ask the Holy Spirit to show you others, it doesn't. The non Canon Gospels combine truth with the Canon. They are spirit and teach (truth) as a whole. Jesus never said teach the Bible. He never said the Hebrew scriptures were of God. Man said those things. Ignorant (of the spirit) men.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

His sheep.

John:
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Christs message is clear, as I said above. Drop the OT. because Jesus says "ALL who came before him".

There is one door. Christ. If you try to ask the Holy Spirit to show you others, it doesn't. The non Canon Gospels combine truth with the Canon. They are spirit and teach (truth) as a whole. Jesus never said teach the Bible. He never said the Hebrew scriptures were of God. Man said those things. Ignorant (of the spirit) men.

He was speaking to the apostles.

 

[RACarvalho]

....I will say that I think the Bible uses overly harsh, apocalyptic language

Some facts for you to think about:
1 - God is holy and he requires that all His creation be holy (1 Peter 1:16)
2 - Not being holy is a transgression punished with death - death penalty - Ezekiel 18:20
3 - It's only by His grace that He allow us to live after we have sinned in the EXPECTATION that His Grace and love will convict our consciences to repentance and back to obedience.
The bible teach us that the time of Grace is a definite period and punishment is hard.
From Egipt to Niniveth to Babilon, to the Medes and Greeks and the Jews, continual unrepented behavior after conviction brings harsh punishment.
1.1 million Jews died when Jesus prophecies in Matthew 24 were fulfilled and Jerusalem fell, even Historian Josephus, which was not a christian, said that what happened in Jerusalem was unprecedented in History, from the stand point of carnage.
As for Revelation, all, from Rev. 5 until Rev.16:12 is fulfilled and can be pinpoint in almost 2000 years of history after it was written.
The last events were the creation of the Image of the Beast (1954 - European Union) and the Euphrates was dried up (Ottoman empire fell in 1930) since then the three demonic spirits are gathering the kings of the earth (Globalism) for the battle of the great Day of the Lord.
" Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed." Rev. 16:15

 

[Phantasman]

He was speaking to the apostles.

Do you mean disciples? The same spirit that revealed to them, reveals to us.

Nothing was given to the disciples that wasn't given to us. Understand what "one" means.

John:
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Do you mean disciples? The same spirit that revealed to them, reveals to us.

Nothing was given to the disciples that wasn't given to us. Understand what "one" means.

John:
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

I meant apostles.