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Harry Potter

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Mind_Over_Matter

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Hello Christians,
Today I'm going to display to you fine folks, the evilness of Harry Potter. The book is based off of hate. You should not allow your kids to read it as it leads to the occult. The encourages voodoo magic. Your kids may begin by reading Harry Potter but they will continue into deads such as playing dungeans and dragons and magic the gathering. Pretty soon they will attempt to learn voodoo magic from the devil himself.

If you wish your kids don't become dark magicians, then you should encourage them to read the Lord of the Rings by J.K.Tolkien. This book is completely acceptable because J.K.Tolkien was Christian.

Don't allow your children to be spawns of the devil. Boycott Harry Potter.
 

DarkCloud

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Today I'm going to display to you fine folks, the evilness of Harry Potter. The book is based off of hate.

I've read the Harry Potter books to some kids at an orphanage, and I think they are fine. They teach good Christian values like hard work, tough love, god fearing, and self control, and self defense, and nationalism. To see the books as stories of hate is to distort the truth and confuse other members here.

You should not allow your kids to read it as it leads to the occult. The encourages voodoo magic. Your kids may begin by reading Harry Potter but they will continue into deads such as playing dungeans and dragons and magic the gathering. Pretty soon they will attempt to learn voodoo magic from the devil himself.

And I suppose Ouji boards lead to the occult to. You beleive in too much fairytales of ghosts and goblins, mind over matter. The whole thing with the occult and voodoo magic is just there because it makes good media coverage, but it doesn't actually go on. Also the devil has bigger fish to fry than our kids. He caused a war in Iraq for instance in which REAL people are dying and REAL people are getting their legs blown off.

If you wish your kids don't become dark magicians, then you should encourage them to read the Lord of the Rings by J.K.Tolkien. This book is completely acceptable because J.K.Tolkien was Christian.

I don't see how Tolkien is different than Potter. It has magic and goblins in it too. If you want to ban Potter, ban Tolkien too. No double standard because Tolkien is Chirstian.
 
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woobadooba

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Mind_Over_Matter said:
Hello Christians,
Today I'm going to display to you fine folks, the evilness of Harry Potter. The book is based off of hate. You should not allow your kids to read it as it leads to the occult. The encourages voodoo magic. Your kids may begin by reading Harry Potter but they will continue into deads such as playing dungeans and dragons and magic the gathering. Pretty soon they will attempt to learn voodoo magic from the devil himself.

If you wish your kids don't become dark magicians, then you should encourage them to read the Lord of the Rings by J.K.Tolkien. This book is completely acceptable because J.K.Tolkien was Christian.

Don't allow your children to be spawns of the devil. Boycott Harry Potter.

I agree with you. But soon you are going to find a lot of people in here who will tell you that HP is harmless, and is a benefit to children rather than a curse.

And you will never get them to agree with you.
 
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Mind_Over_Matter

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I've read the Harry Potter books to some kids at an orphanage, and I think they are fine. They teach good Christian values like hard work, tough love, god fearing, and self control, and self defense, and nationalism. To see the books as stories of hate is to distort the truth and confuse other members here.
In the books Harry Potter is constantly using anger to fuel his actions. Is that what we want to teach our children. The books have dragons, symbol of demons. He constantly reclessly does things using his dead parents as an excuse, and each and every time he gets results by his uncalculated actions. Hardly the effects that real life portrays.
The whole thing with the occult and voodoo magic is just there because it makes good media coverage, but it doesn't actually go on. Also the devil has bigger fish to fry than our kids. He caused a war in Iraq for instance in which REAL people are dying and REAL people are getting their legs blown off.
If you look at the media, most things in the media are negative. Occultish things, the war in Iraq. When was the last time you saw the Media publisize the bible?
I don't see how Tolkien is different than Potter. It has magic and goblins in it too. If you want to ban Potter, ban Tolkien too. No double standard because Tolkien is Chirstian.
There is no double standard. Because Tolkien was Christian, he knew how to write the books in such a way that they would not fuel the deeds of the devil.
 
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woobadooba

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DarkCloud said:
I've read the Harry Potter books to some kids at an orphanage, and I think they are fine. They teach good Christian values like hard work, tough love, god fearing, and self control, and self defense, and nationalism. To see the books as stories of hate is to distort the truth and confuse other members here.

So do you believe the end justifies the means?

Why not read the stories of the Bible to the children? Do you think HP can provide them with a more sufficient basis for morality than the Bible can?

And I suppose Ouija boards lead to the occult to. You believe in too much fairytales of ghosts and goblins, mind over matter. The whole thing with the occult and voodoo magic is just there because it makes good media coverage, but it doesn't actually go on. Also the devil has bigger fish to fry than our kids. He caused a war in Iraq for instance in which REAL people are dying and REAL people are getting their legs blown off.

Don't you think that Satan also has subtle means to woe people into his web of destruction?

11 years ago my ex-girlfriend used the Ouija board. She ended up getting possessed by a demon, which, from what I've heard just recently, has never left her.

But you don't think this stuff is real?
 
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DarkCloud

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Why not read the stories of the Bible to the children? Do you think HP can provide them with a more sufficient basis for morality than the Bible can?

Most kids don't find the bible fun to read. Also, I don't think versus like these are appropriate for young children:

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Don't you think that Satan also has subtle means to woe people into his web of destruction?

11 years ago my ex-girlfriend used the Ouija board. She ended up getting possessed by a demon, which, from what I've heard just recently, has never left her.

But you don't think this stuff is real?

That's just nonsense. If the devil could possess you from something as arbitrary as a Ouiji board, why couldn't he possess you for eating a candy bar or something.
 
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woobadooba

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DarkCloud said:
Most kids don't find the bible fun to read. Also, I don't think versus like these are appropriate for young children:

So why not make it attractive?

How about this one, children don't find rules and restrictions to be attractive either. So does this mean we ought to inculcate ideas that teach them to break the law?

Do you really see what you're saying?

And what verses are you talking about, the ones that inform people that they ought to take virginity seriously, and that we ought to worship only one God? Yet, you would rather read stories to children that encourage them to delve into black-magic for the purpose of taking vengeance upon themselves rather than leaving it to God? You make no sense!

By the way, you never did answer my question: Do you believe that the end justifies the means?

That's just nonsense. If the devil could possess you from something as arbitrary as a Ouija board, why couldn't he possess you for eating a candy bar or something.

Your analogy is flawed simply because the Ouija board, unlike candy, is a pathway into the realm of demons. When you use it, especially by yourself, you render yourself to be vulnerable to becoming possessed by whatever demon it is that you are communicating with. And this happened to my ex-girlfriend.

If you don't want to believe that, then you can live in your ignorance, but there are a lot of people out that that this has happened to.
 
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DarkCloud

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So why not make it attractive?

How about this one, children don't find rules and restrictions to be attractive either. So does this mean we ought to inculcate ideas that teach them to break the law?

Do you really see what you're saying?

Wow, nice strawman. I said what I said: The Bible is a little to advanced for young children. Maybe a child bible would work.

And what verses are you talking about?

Um the two I quoted, can you read?

By the way, you never did answer my question: Do you believe that the end justifies the means?

I didn't answer because it wasn't clear what it refers to. Rephrase what exactly you are asking and I'll answer.

Your analogy is flawed simply because the Ouija board, unlike candy, is a pathway into the realm of demons. When you use it, especially by yourself, you render yourself to be vulnerable to becoming possessed by whatever demon it is that you are communicating with. And this happened to my ex-girlfriend.

I guess the part I'm having difficulty with is what exactly is the physics of the Ouiji board that makes it special/magical? I mean, to me I see an arbitrary game, a board and a set of rules. So if the devil can possess you with some random game the Parker Brothers made up, why couldn't he possess you with a candy bar?

If you don't want to believe that, then you can live in your ignorance, but there are a lot of people out that that this has happened to.

Maybe there is an alternative explanation. It use to be that mentally sick people were considered possessed. Oh and I wouldn't talk about ignorance, coming from someone that thinks the Parker Brothers game has magical physics properties.
 
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woobadooba

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DarkCloud said:
Wow, nice strawman. I said what I said: The Bible is a little to advanced for young children. Maybe a child bible would work.

There is no need to insult me with the 'strawman' retorts.

Are you a Christian? If so, act like one. If not, you shouldn't be posting in here.

Now then, the scriptures are too advanced for children?

That's odd, because when Paul addressed Timothy he said,

"and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus." 2Tim. 3:15

The word 'infancy' here suggests a very young age. Thus when Timothy was at an age wherein he could understand human language, his journey to God began as he was given instruction from the Holy Scriptures.

So if he was able to understand what is written in the word of God, why do you feel that this isn't possible today, that the Bible is too advanced for children?

By the way, a well versed teacher would be able to disclose the meaning behind those so-called advanced passages. And he could do this in a way that even little children could understand what they mean.

Um the two I quoted, can you read?

More insults? Yes, I can read. In fact, if you go back to my post you will see that I edited it before you posted your response to it.

I didn't answer because it wasn't clear what it refers to. Rephrase what exactly you are asking and I'll answer.

You spoke of all of the so-called good things that HP inculcates, thus making it appear like the stories are intrinsically good because they bring out commendable traits.

So I asked you if you believe that the end justifies the means. In other words, do you believe that just because some good can be found in something, or that some good might result from something that really isn't good, that the source from which it came is therefore good simply because something good came out of it?

I guess the part I'm having difficulty with is what exactly is the physics of the Ouiji board that makes it special/magical? I mean, to me I see an arbitrary game, a board and a set of rules. So if the devil can possess you with some random game the Parker Brothers made up, why couldn't he possess you with a candy bar?

I already explained this to you.

Maybe there is an alternative explanation. It use to be that mentally sick people were considered possessed. Oh and I wouldn't talk about ignorance, coming from someone that thinks the Parker Brothers game has magical physics properties.

You are not dialoguing with someone who is ignorant of these things. I assure you of that.

In the past I communicated with demons through the Ouija board, but I never did it by myself.

I must warn you, don't tamper with it. Don't let your curiosity destroy you.
 
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PaladinValer

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"Harry Potter and Biblically-condemned Magic: Is there a Connection?"

The answer is no, but the reasons are complex. First off, we need to take a look at a Biblical passage usually used to condemn Harry Potter as Satanic/evil, Deuteronomy 18:10-13.

This passage, on the surface, seems to do the job quite easily, but it takes a knowledge of linguistics to understand what is really going on. In the following, I have taken out the translations and put in Hebrew transliterations, which are in italics and have put in bold their literal meanings:


"No one shall be found among you who makes a son or daughter pass through fire, who is a yid'oni (one who contacts spirits that are not of God), who practices sho'el'ov (making forbidden contact with the dead to discover the future), who is a qosem q'samim (someone who predicts the future through unsanctioned devices), who is a m'onen (someone who predicts the future by interpreting signs in nature not atributed to God), who is a m'nachesh (someone who charms snakes without God's will), who practices chover chavar (practicing knot-tying to bind people with manipulative spells), who is a m'khaseph (someone who is an evil sorceress who uses mystics to harm others offensively), or is a dresh 'el hametim (someone who forbiddenly contacts the spirits of the dead)."


Lets go throug these prohibitions one-by-one:

Are Harry or his friends yid'oni? No. I've personally read all six books, and the only spirits communable so far that I remember are the Hogwarts ghosts, and no one needs to use any spell, magic devise, or other sort of mechanism to contact these spirits; one merely needs to wander around to find one (or one might just pop up). In addition, the religious persuation of these ghosts, in their living lives or in their current state of "undeath" is unknown, making it completely illogical to assume. Lastly, since we don't know how God fits into the book (as it is a FANTASY) we cannot simply assume they do.

Do they sho'el'ov? No. This form of contact with the spiritual realm is closely related to the other as a person would still need to contact spirits that are not of God. However, this time, the desire to know the future is a part of the equasion. This does not happen at all. The Prophecy that Trelawny spoke of and of which Harry and co. found at the end of Book 5 has nothing to do with this also, since no contact with spirits were made. In fact, it was already known of by many of the major characters (especially Dumbledore). Lastly, since we don't know how God fits into the book (as it is a FANTASY) we cannot simply assume they do.

Do they qosem q'samim? No. This is tied closely with the above since it also deals with fortune-telling, so much of what I'm saying here can also be said about the above (and visa versa). The books and even its characters state many times how challenging REAL divination is. Hermoine quits the class in Book 3 because she finds it useless (not to mention she finds Prof. Trelawny little more than a fraud...not an inaccurate observation if I might add). Dumbledore speaks right out against the accuracies of divination several times in the books. Harry and Ron never master it (Harry in particular is very accomplished in his classes), and Trelawny gets LUCKY all the time. Lastly, Firnez, the new Prof. of Divination, says pointblank on how foolish humans are when it comes to their silly perceptions on what divination is. Now what about the Prophecy or the pensieve? Again, they don't qualify. The Prophecy doesn't in itself predict anything; it is merely a physical reminder of a prophecy made. The pensieve has been used to show the past, but never the future. In addition, since Harry's world is a sort of "other-dimentional world," we don't know how God fits into this alternate world (as it is a FANTASY).

Do they m'onen? No. Again, this relates heavily to the others above. Since Trelawny's form of divination is given a negative light, we can throw away this accusation completely (except, of course, when she spoke the Prophecy). But what about Firnez? His form isn't applicable either. True, he's a stargazer, but he is very cautious and informs the students not to "just trust" the signs; they could be wrong (which I believe is stated when we first meet him and the other centaurs in Book 1). So even this isn't in any way fortune-telling through nature. Lastly, since we don't know how God fits into the book (as it is a FANTASY) we cannot simply assume they do.

Is HARRY a m'nachesh? Yes, but a resounding NO as well. Harry has the ability to speak parseltongue; the language of snakes. However, lets look at the details. 1. It isn't Harry's fault he has this ability. When Voldemort failed to kill Harry, part of his essence and power was transferred unwillingly to Harry. 2. The Books outright say that it is a power some wizards and witches are BORN with; they don't learn it (yet in this world, we would need to learn how to charm snakes, and those who do [like modern Indian snakecharmers in India] don't use anything magical). 3. The Books express that the last wizard or witch who DID have this ability was Voldemort himself, and it is said that only evil and dark witches and wizards are usually born with this ability. 4. Harry, upon learning about his ability, wishes he never had it; this doesn't sound very "withcrafty" or demonic to me. 5. The first time Harry used it (Book 1; the trip to the Zoo), he didn't even realize what he was doing; the power was involuntary. However, on other occasions, it is important to know that he used the ability to STOP the snake from attacking his fellow student and to STOP Tom Riddle by invading the Chamber of Secrets. He never uses it to harm; much like how Gandalf never uses his powers to harm (unless necessary). Therefore, the argument against Harry is off-base and illogical.

Do they chover chavar? Not that I've seen.

Is HERMOINE (or any of the other female students) a m'khaseph? Not at all. In nearly every time she used her magic, it was either a class activity (neutral), to practice (neutral), aid (good), or protect (good). Granted, she used it to stop Neville in Book 1 (bad). But lets remember one thing: Hermoine wasn't too happy with herself for paralyzing poor Neville and in fact apologized (although the apology did happen first, knowing her character, he would definitely have done it again after he recovered). This last point paints a powerful portrait about NOT HARMING PEOPLE, a VERY moral ideal.

Do they doresh'el hametim? No. The ghosts wander the halls No contact is required. In addition, its rare that the characters go out to find the ghosts (the only time I can remember on the top of my head is at the end of Book 5 when Harry seeks Nearly Headless Nick about the possibility of his Godfather becoming a ghost after loosing him in the battle against Voldemort earlier).

So that ends this list. Everything in Harry Potter is benign of these stumbling blocks.

Yet what about passages like Galations 5:20? The Greek word used is actually the same root word that we get the words "pharmecy" and "phamaceuticals" from. It deals with potions and philters to harm people (ie: poison) or to charm (enthrall, literally enslave to another's will).

Professor Snape is the Potions Master at Hogwarts and although he may be on the anti-Voldemort side, doesn't always have the best of dispositions. He does threaten to poison Neville's toad, but he himself didn't create the potion; Neville did (and screwed up because Potions is arguably his worst subject). In addition, opponents of the books often point to the famous Veritaserus potion Snape sometimes threatens Harry with and is actually used often in the books. The problem is, we today use similar drugs to coerce information out of enemies of the State or as an alternative to torture to get information from captured forces. In fact, "veritaserus" is Latin for what the potion is also named; a "truth potion." It does not harm anyone it is used against unless that person is then abused, and there was only one occurrance of this: it was by the allies of Voldemort in order to keep someone from snitching on their plans to "resurrect" the Dark Lord himself.

The potions therefore used in Harry Potter are benign used used to abuse or harm, just like any current drug today: asperin can bring down fevers and quell pain but it can also be used to poison someone all the same. The Bible is telling people not to harm people via magical or poisonous potions, and Harry Potter books don't protray any of the heroes doing that at all, only the villains.

I must therefore conclude that there is nothing in the Bible than condemns the "magic," "witchcraft" or "spells" contained in the "magical" Harry Potter books. The only "spell" it has cast is one of a renewed love of reading in children, teenagers, and adults of all ages, keeping their eyes glewed to reading instead of the boobtube.

And that is one spell that I'm glad Rowling conjured.
 
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woobadooba

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PaladinValer said:
The only "spell" it has cast is one of a renewed love of reading in children, teenagers, and adults of all ages, keeping their eyes glewed to reading instead of the boobtube.

And that is one spell that I'm glad Rowling conjured.

I will ask you the same question I asked someone else.

Do you believe the end justifies the means?
 
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Unfortunately many people will not see the good through what they see as wicked. My children are reading HP in school right now. Ask them who their creator is they'll tell you God. They'll tell you Christ died on the cross for our sins. They know what they need to, and not once has any of my children came up to me and said I wanna be a wizard when I grow up. I get the same flack through Halloween, certain family of mine will not allow their children to dress up as their favorite characters to receive treats from their neighbors. I look on it as a ritual of giving, not one where my kids celebrate evil. Too many times people take things way out of context and try to look at things through dark glasses. The blood type of a rank pessimist is always B negative.


canadiancatholic
 
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woobadooba

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canadiancatholic said:
Unfortunately many people will not see the good through what they see as wicked. My children are reading HP in school right now. Ask them who their creator is they'll tell you God. They'll tell you Christ died on the cross for our sins. They know what they need to, and not once has any of my children came up to me and said I wanna be a wizard when I grow up. I get the same flack through Halloween, certain family of mine will not allow their children to dress up as their favorite characters to receive treats from their neighbors. I look on it as a ritual of giving, not one where my kids celebrate evil. Too many times people take things way out of context and try to look at things through dark glasses. The blood type of a rank pessimist is always B negative.


canadiancatholic

The devil can also tell you who God is, and that Jesus died for sinners, so does that make him good?

Please don't assume that I am comparing your children with the devil. I am just making a point that a verbal confession does not equal a sanctified life.

And I certainly hope you don't actually believe that your children would tell you that they find the occult to be fascinating. Truth is, if they do get into it, you won't even know it. Sadly, they already are in it because HP is the offspring of it. And you don't even mind this at all.

By the way, you don't have to become a witch to think like one. Moral relativism is at the very foundation of all witchcraft. And it is something that the devil is now using to infiltrate the minds of our children, because they are the future. And if he can get them while their young, he will rule the world when they are adults.

My advice to you would be to take a stand against this before it's too late.
 
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IMO, one important point is that by allowing children to read HP they often become intrigued with the occult and futher investigate it. This can be true whether or not the parents are aware of it.

I would urge you to earnestly pray and ask God for guidance, I feel strongly these books are not harmless.
 
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The truth is in fact that wrath is often the trigger for whatever Harry does. Anybody who denies this - fan or not - is not reading the books correctly. However, we must remember that HP is a teenager, and teens are often emotional and prone to violent outbreaks (except me, I just ran away once.)

And if you've read the last book you will see that Harry has decided to shape up and focus on what is right and what needs to be done and not whatever he feels like.

I am a devout Christian and while I'm not a HP fanatic, I have read all the books, own two of them, seen all the movies (which are all lame by the way.) and have yet to become a dark wizard. Harry Potter is fantasy, nothing is supposed to be taken seriously. If a person suddenly thinks he can talk to snakes and freeze people, he's a moron. Anyone can see HP is not real, if your worried about your kids, talk to them about it, show them the mistakes that Harry has made. If anything, its a guide book on what not to do when facing dark wizards.
 
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woobadooba

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NeoScribe said:
The truth is in fact that wrath is often the trigger for whatever Harry does. Anybody who denies this - fan or not - is not reading the books correctly. However, we must remember that HP is a teenager, and teens are often emotional and prone to violent outbreaks (except me, I just ran away once.)

And if you've read the last book you will see that Harry has decided to shape up and focus on what is right and what needs to be done and not whatever he feels like.

I am a devout Christian and while I'm not a HP fanatic, I have read all the books, own two of them, seen all the movies (which are all lame by the way.) and have yet to become a dark wizard. Harry Potter is fantasy, nothing is supposed to be taken seriously. If a person suddenly thinks he can talk to snakes and freeze people, he's a moron. Anyone can see HP is not real, if your worried about your kids, talk to them about it, show them the mistakes that Harry has made. If anything, its a guide book on what not to do when facing dark wizards.

But you see, it is clear to me from your post that you have been affected by this type of exposure in a negative way in that I can see that you not only believe in situational ethics, but you also espouse the view of moral relativism. This, by the way, is not good.

And I'm quite positive that these so-called harmless books that you've read have contributed in bringing you to this point in your view on life in general.
 
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NeoScribe

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C.S. Lewis said something along these lines about demons and dark forces, I cant find my book so this is from memory:

"One is to disbelieve there existence, the other way is to have an unhelthy interest in them. They themselves are pleased either way."

I believe in demons, but I dont go around looking for them, or prodding them. This isnt an insult, but people who look to much into HP are in danger of falling into the second catergory. Teach your kids about right and wrong as I will when I grow up. Teach them that there are malevolent forces out there, but dont become entralled by them, less they lose their minds, bodies, or their spirtual salvation.
 
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