Harry Potter Deathly Hollows Pt 2 *something That Doesn't Make Sense

[united4Peace]

Good observation, notice one thing, all references to witchcraft and sorcery were NEGATIVE! no hero's in the bible were practicing sorcerers, they were always the bad guys, its just a cunning scheme to get people to believe there are good witches and bad witches, such as TV has been trying portray for some time now, "wizard of Oz" had "Glenda" the good witch, and everyone in my era would remember Samantha Stevens the witch who only practiced "white magic".......this isn't a coinsedence this is how culture and mass populations are manipulated, satan has been here awhile, he knows how he can twist things around in just a few hundred years

This is true sad to say. These shows have affected our society...well at least it has had a huge affect in our household .
I have tried and tried with no luck to clean up the house by twitching my nose. Maybe if I resort to praying instead the house may become clean, laundry folded and 4 course meals cooked (rather than the lazy dinners I put together when wiggling my nose doesnt work) .
The other day my husband(my Master) came home and found me trying to wiggle my nose, he became upset and put me in my vase. He put the cork on it as well for punishment, wouldnt let me out until I promised to behave!!
Anyways, Im off to see the wizard right away...ta ta

 

[ToBeInChrist]

So you think it's great that magic is being portrayed as 'good' or 'neutral' and you see this as having no negative spiritual or religious effects on culture?

In Acts, new converts destroyed their magic books. And I've read some ancient Greek magic texts/fragments, by the way -- they did not necessarily require bowing down to an idol or believing in any particular pagan deity -- they could certainly have been done by someone with neo-platonic philosophical leanings -- i.e., the ancient equivalent of a modern esoteric practitioner or new-ager.

 

[Nilloc]

The Bible says various practices are unacceptable, and sorcercy, divination, astrology, etc., is condemned.

Why is it condemned? See, that’s why I pointed to other areas where I’m sure you don’t take it literally, but instead take the intention of what is being commanded. Of course you ignored that.

Most conservatives explain the OT command about eating shellfish using a similar argument I am for witchcraft. Since you reject this about witchcraft, I assume you’d do the same for shellfish. And if that’s the case, I hope you don’t eat shellfish.

And I’ll explain it one more time: witchcraft was wrong because it was part of pagan worship. Harry Potter’s “witchcraft” is not pagan worship, nor is most magic that I see in fiction. And as I said, if you’re going to ignore why something is commanded, then I hope you cut off your limbs when they cause you to sin.

If it is done totally on a lark as a scientific experiment without believing in some pagan god or without using an idol, it is still wrong.

Says who? (see, I can do it too)

I'm trying to take seriously what God is saying,

No you’re not, you’re taking a typical interpretation conservatives and fundamentalists parrot and then reading it back into an ancient text that has nothing to do with fantasy fiction.

So I don't want to be entertained by sorcery.

But Paul was (another thing you ignored).

Says who?

I’m looking at why something is condemned, not just blindly reading it trying to make it fit today’s situation when in fact the Bible never says anything about Harry Potter or anything like it.

I want to respect God, I want to consider God's ways, I want to lovingly be faithful to Him, I do not want to do what is horrible in his sight.

Then maybe you should learn how to read the Bible the way the original people in the original context did, not how a twenty-first century American conservative Christian would.

God, the creator, speaks and then it happens, and can perform miracles.

Supernatural things, that looks suspiciously like magic.

And will you answer my question: have you actually read any of the Potter books?

 

[Tuddrussell]

I've done magic as part of the worship of pagan deities, is it wrong for a good Christian to read my posts?

 

[Nilloc]

I've done magic as part of the worship of pagan deities, is it wrong for a good Christian to read my posts?

Oh darn! I just sinned. Please forgive me Lord.

 

[united4Peace]

I've done magic as part of the worship of pagan deities, is it wrong for a good Christian to read my posts?

Sadly we took our children to Disneyland...
The Most Magical Place on Earth
However we did this to show them how disgusting it was, I swear, we never had any fun and the children were disgusted as well!

I sure do hope that place gets shut down soon!! Horrible...and for all those people to go and have their mind taken over by the evil...I really think Walt Disney should be ashamed to have built such a disgusting attraction!!

 

[Tuddrussell]

One thing they don't tell you is those guys in the suits stink, like the inside of a gym bag.

 

[Nilloc]

Sadly we took our children to Disneyland...
The Most Magical Place on Earth
However we did this to show them how disgusting it was, I swear, we never had any fun and the children were disgusted as well!

I have Catholic relatives who work at Disneyworld, and I've been there four times. I guess we've all been duped by that evil, demonic, sinful, spawn of Satan himself: Mickey Mouse.

 

[united4Peace]

I have Catholic relatives who work at Disneyworld, and I've been there four times. I guess we've all been duped by that evil, demonic, sinful, spawn of Satan himself: Mickey Mouse.

Ohh yes...he hugged me!! I showered off as soon as I could!

 

[ToBeInChrist]

I've done magic as part of the worship of pagan deities, is it wrong for a good Christian to read my posts?

I just read your post. I don't think I've done anything wrong by reading your post.

I'm just saying I am not personally entertained anymore by movies where the hero is a magician or occultist, and if I were entertained I wouldn't want to encourage the tendency, and at any rate as a matter of what types of things a Christian may find entertaining or edifying, there are stories where a knight saves a village from a dragon or stories where some character is guided by an angel to lead a better life, or something like Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress where Christian goes on an allegorical journey, etc., that would be more appropriate for a Christian.

I'm really talking about my own heart and what entertains it, what ought to entertain it, how I might guard my heart.

Why is it condemned? See, that’s why I pointed to other areas where I’m sure you don’t take it literally, but instead take the intention of what is being commanded. Of course you ignored that.

Most conservatives explain the OT command about eating shellfish using a similar argument I am for witchcraft. Since you reject this about witchcraft, I assume you’d do the same for shellfish. And if that’s the case, I hope you don’t eat shellfish.

If you read the books of Acts, Galatians and Hebrews, (doesn't take that long compared to reading a Harry Potter book), you may start to understand how Christians have dealt with the Old Testament ritual requirements and symbolic ordinances which separated Hebrews from the nations that surrounded them, while affirming the principles of morality, justice, and holiness found throughout the Bible, focusing upon the revelation of Jesus Christ.

In Acts new converts destroyed books dealing with the curious arts.

I've actually read some of the material from ancient times that was occult and magical -- there were recipes and incantations and items used -- not full of idols and not necessarily involving worship of pagan gods/goddesses. In NT times, and in centuries before and after, there were many who were neo-platonic about it, considering themselves quite above those who engaged in the common worship of pagan dieties, and there were many who disparraged the pagan dieties in favor of subtle philosophical/esoteric/theosophic theories and metaphysics.

 

[Tuddrussell]

^Try to destroy any of my stuff and I'm calling the cops. Unacceptable behaviour that is.

 

[united4Peace]

To the OP...
I watched the movie but didnt quite get the story line as I havent kept up (read the first 5 or 6 books but then got too busy). I have to agree with another poster...read the books! The movie's are never the same as the book...and that doesnt just apply to HP but to many other movies!

To the ones who think HP is evil...great...your entitled to your opinion, however do not put down those of us who enjoy in a bit of fantasy.

Found this book a few years back...I havent read it, however I know of others who have and say it is a good read. There are some children programs in Churches that use HP to help teach as anything that makes learning about God funner whether it be HP or Veggie Tales is a great tool!

The Gospel According to Harry Potter by Connie Neal

 

[ToBeInChrist]

^Try to destroy any of my stuff and I'm calling the cops. Unacceptable behaviour that is.

I wasn't talking about destroying anyone else's things.

 

[Nilloc]

If you read the books of Acts, Galatians and Hebrews, (doesn't take that long compared to reading a Harry Potter book),

I have read them and actually try to read them in there original contexts and not the way conservatives do.

you may start to understand how Christians have dealt with the Old Testament ritual requirements and symbolic ordinances which separated Hebrews from the nations that surrounded them, while affirming the principles of morality, justice, and holiness found throughout the Bible, focusing upon the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Which is the conservative cop-out way of explaining why they pick and choose which OT commandments to follow.

In Acts new converts destroyed books dealing with the curious arts.

What does this have to do with Harry Potter? Harry Potter is not a religious text (well, I'm sure there are a few loons out there somewhere who view it that way).

I've actually read some of the material from ancient times that was occult and magical -- there were recipes and incantations and items used -- not full of idols and not necessarily involving worship of pagan gods/goddesses.
In NT times, and in centuries before and after, there were many who were neo-platonic about it, considering themselves quite above those who engaged in the common worship of pagan dieties, and there were many who disparraged the pagan dieties in favor of subtle philosophical/esoteric/theosophic theories and metaphysics.

So what? That's not what's being talked about in the Bible.

And I'll ask again: have you read Harry Potter?

 

[ToBeInChrist]

I have read them and actually try to read them in there original contexts and not the way conservatives do.

Well when I pray and read such books of the Bible, what I see is that things like sorcery and sexual immorality are still sin, but things like whether or not to wear clothes of mixed fabric or to each shellfish, which distinguished Hebrews from Gentiles, or things having to do solely with symbolic ritual requirements, are handled differently in the New Testament as in the New Covenant the shadows presented in the Old Covenant are fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

It's not cop-out picking and choosing. Nor is it mindless disregard for the OT, nor is it mindless continuation of the OT. It is thoughtful application of what is revealed in the NT about the OT and how to understand Jesus.

Muttering incantations to enchant someone, to make magic potions, do astrology, channel spirits, etc., is forbidden in BOTH the Old Testament AND the New Testament, along with other forbidden practices.

I don't want to be entertained by sorcery or sexual immorality or injustice or blasphemy. That's what it really boils down to, and in the Bible, sorcery, astrology, etc., is forbidden -- it is the disobedient and faithless, the rebels who engage in such activity.

 

[Nilloc]

Well when I pray and read such books of the Bible, what I see is that things like sorcery and sexual immorality are still sin, but things like whether or not to wear clothes of mixed fabric or to each shellfish, which distinguished Hebrews from Gentiles, or things having to do solely with symbolic ritual requirements, are handled differently in the New Testament as in the New Covenant the shadows presented in the Old Covenant are fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

I don't care what it is you see in your personal subjective reading. It matters what whether you can prove it or not, and you can't. Saying that I feel this is a universal moral law, while this is not, is not evidence, nor should a rational person use such a method if they want to discover the truth. What you're presenting here reminds me a little of Gnosticism, actually.

It's not cop-out picking and choosing. Nor is it mindless disregard for the OT, nor is it mindless continuation of the OT. It is thoughtful application of what is revealed in the NT about the OT and how to understand Jesus.

So how to you know what is always abiding or not? You don't, it just comes down to picking the ones that you "feel" are universal. Using the excuse of "thoughtful application" doesn't hide what you're doing: picking the laws you like and disregarding the ones you don't.

Muttering incantations to enchant someone, to make magic potions, do astrology, channel spirits, etc., is forbidden in BOTH the Old Testament AND the New Testament, along with other forbidden practices.

Worshiping false gods through magic is what is condemned in Scripture. Your fundementalist fear mongering simply can't allow for such a thing however. What Harry Potter does is not what is being talked about in the OT. But it's obvious that you, like most conservatives, can't even think outside of your own ideology and consider the possibility that I might be right. Are you getting your information from a Chick tract or something?

I don't want to be entertained by sorcery or sexual immorality or injustice or blasphemy. That's what it really boils down to, and in the Bible, sorcery, astrology, etc., is forbidden -- it is the disobedient and faithless, the rebels who engage in such activity.

No, you'd rather spend your time condemning people and things you know nothing about--because that's what Jesus did, right?

Besides, none of those things are going on in Harry Potter.

And once again: have you actually read the books? Why do I have the feeling you don't want to answer this . . .

 

[ToBeInChrist]

I don't care what it is you see in your personal subjective reading. It matters what whether you can prove it or not, and you can't. Saying that I feel this is a universal moral law, while this is not, is not evidence, nor should a rational person use such a method if they want to discover the truth. What you're presenting here reminds me a little of Gnosticism, actually.

Gnostics, ancient or modern, tended to just throw out the Old Testament, and many of them refused to take Jewish and Christian moral concerns seriously, or they re-defined words/terms/meanings of stories through mystical allegories to mean something quite different, some played around with esoteric and magical practices, some engaged in sexual immorality in the name of 'spiritual freedom' but merely rebelling against Biblical morality.

I am affirming what Jews and Christians have for centuries, all around the world, held to be moral or immoral. I am not re-defining terms and using modern interpretations of context to approve of astrology/palm-reading, incantations, enchantments, magic potions, homosexuality, fornication, pre-marital sex, mixing religions, etc.

The fact is that Christians have condemned the sorts of things depicted in Harry Potter since the beginning, and we find the condemnations in ancient Jewish religion, too. I agree with the consensus of ancient Jews and Christians.

I have no interest in reading or seeing fiction about an apprentice sorcerer. I've stated why. I have better things to do, as a Christian. If you don't like that, I don't know what to say. I don't want to be entertained by sorcery, I don't want to encourage my heart to find sin entertaining. I don't want to redefine sin along modern politically-correct lines.

 

[Tuddrussell]

You are either entertained by it or you are not. To avoid it just makes that information an unknown. That being said, if you don't want to read it you don't have to. No one in their right mind will force you to do so, but that works both ways.

Just as they don't have the right to force you to read it, you don't have the right to forbid it.

Why do you trust ancient Christians above current Christians? The Christians of yesteryear don't have the context of todays society to work off of, they are too ill informed to provide any advice on this matter.

The early church was a totally different beast than it is today. For one thing back then it was just an upstart cult, nowadays it is a global religion. Also, back then books were rare and valuable and words had power... Now they are mass produced and widely available, words have become meaningless and weak.

In short: The views of the early church do not matter at all in this situation, because they are nto aware of the stituation and the context. If they were here today, then you could ask them about it.

 

[Nilloc]

Gnostics, ancient or modern, tended to just throw out the Old Testament, and many of them refused to take Jewish and Christian moral concerns seriously, or they re-defined words/terms/meanings of stories through mystical allegories to mean something quite different, some played around with esoteric and magical practices, some engaged in sexual immorality in the name of 'spiritual freedom' but merely rebelling against Biblical morality.

It's Gnostic in that you seem to be saying your subjective experience is somehow evidence.

I am affirming what Jews and Christians have for centuries, all around the world, held to be moral or immoral. I am not re-defining terms and using modern interpretations of context to approve of astrology/palm-reading, incantations, enchantments, magic potions, homosexuality, fornication, pre-marital sex, mixing religions, etc.

You're redefining thigs to condemn others and things that you know nothing about.

The fact is that Christians have condemned the sorts of things depicted in Harry Potter since the beginning, and we find the condemnations in ancient Jewish religion, too. I agree with the consensus of ancient Jews and Christians.

LOL. Christians haven't condemned things like Harry Potter since the beginning. Your problem is your just assuming that what the Bible condemned as witchcraft is the same as the so called witchcraft of Harry Potter. And It's obvious you dont' care what I have to say, since you continue to insist the contrary by just repeating your arguments.

What about Christians like C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkien, and J.K. Rowling? Do their opinions just not matter to you because they weren't a bunch of controlling, fear mongering fundamentalists?

I have no interest in reading or seeing fiction about an apprentice sorcerer.

Fine. Then don't come on to threads to spread your condemnation and ignorance. If you don't want to read it and be legalistic about it, then please, be my guest.

I've stated why.

Sure, based on bad reasoning and fundamentalist propaganda.

I have better things to do, as a Christian.

Like condemn people who have harmed no one.

If you don't like that, I don't know what to say.

I don't care what you do. I do care when you invade threads and condemn something you have never read.

I don't want to be entertained by sorcery, I don't want to encourage my heart to find sin entertaining. I don't want to redefine sin along modern politically-correct lines.

It isn't sinful.

 

[ToBeInChrist]

Anyhow, having read works of 'curious arts' from early Christian times, I have to say, there was a lot of it that didn't seem to require pagan temple worship or idols, and among Neo-Platonists who did theurgy, many had views along the lines of theosophists, new-agers, and occultists rather than crude pagan worship or idolatry...

So when I see in Acts that believers destroyed the writings on 'curious arts', I don't see exclusively the idol-worship of pagan temples or worship of pagan deities, I also see in that category various writings involving astrology, charms, incantations, mystical theories, etc.

Harry Potter, as an apprentice sorcerer, was engaged in such 'arts', and if he was in Ephesus with Paul and converted to Christianity, he would have renounced his sorcery and burned whatever books or magical implements he had.

I don't see a story of an unrepentant sorcerer 'hero' as wholesome Christian entertainment.