Harry Potter Deathly Hollows Pt 2 *something That Doesn't Make Sense

[religious&reasonable]

most of the movie was bad and didn't make sense. Not to mention the random kissing moments that would burst out of nowhere. there was like 3 of them lol, and they would happen whenever the characters had A LOT more important things to do at the moment.

 

[Nilloc]

most of the movie was bad and didn't make sense. Not to mention the random kissing moments that would burst out of nowhere. there was like 3 of them lol, and they would happen whenever the characters had A LOT more important things to do at the moment.

Ever since the third movie, they constantly add in stupid, pointless little things like that because . . . I don't know. I mean, they have all this story to get out and instead waste theirs and our time by adding in scenes like Harry trying to capture his book that is alive, talking with that Nigel kid, or, as you said, adding in weird kissing scenes.

Now they had to have Hermione and Ron's kiss, because that was in the book, but I don't care for the way they changed it in the film. I know they couldn't do it the same way because they never had the S.P.E.W. subplot, but the way they did it just didn't seem right.

And you think they could have added in like five lines of dialogue that actually would explain why Harry didn't die at the end. They actually showed the reason why in the fourth movie, but instead they have Harry ask Dumbledore about Snape's patronus. Is that really more important than explaining why the hero of a seven part epic lives?

All that said, I enjoyed the movie for what it was. It was good to get that Harry Potter feeling one last time, and was still pretty fun to watch.

 

[ToBeInChrist]

Now, that all being said, and from the point of view of an English major, I see more Christ-like atributes in the Harry Potter series than in the Narnia series. In all honestly, I personally believe the only reason Narnia is allowed by Christian schools and parents is because Lewis said he was a Christian and JKR didn't make any comments on her religious views until well after Deathly Hallows came out.

All that being said, and from the point of view of a Christian who's familiar with the Bible and the Gospels in the NT, Jesus was not a sorcerer, Jesus was the messiah of the Jews and fulfilled the Law, he did not encourage the chanting of spells or the channeling of spirits or divination, etc. Jesus is the only Son of God, without sin, God and man, the only way to the Father, my Savior and Lord.

There is NO comparison between a teenage sorcerer apprentice and Jesus.

 

[Nilloc]

All that being said, and from the point of view of a Christian who's familiar with the Bible and the Gospels in the NT, Jesus was not a sorcerer, Jesus was the messiah of the Jews and fulfilled the Law, he did not encourage the chanting of spells or the channeling of spirits or divination, etc. Jesus is the only Son of God, without sin, God and man, the only way to the Father, my Savior and Lord.

There is NO comparison between a teenage sorcerer apprentice and Jesus.

And yet the Bible compares Jesus to Adam, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon, and Israel itself, and they were all sinners. In one place in Paul, he compares God the Father to Abraham.

 

[ToBeInChrist]

THE question is, who do you think Jesus is?

A related question is: why is any comparison being made?

 

[Nilloc]

THE question is, who do you think Jesus is?

Nice dodge.

A related question is: why is any comparison being made?

I'd ask Jesus, Paul, and the Evangelists. They're the one's who made the comparisons after all.

 

[ToBeInChrist]

It's not a dodge at all. Jesus was not a sorcerer. Jesus did not encourage anyone to practice casting spells, etc.

Jesus is God, Lord and Savior of those who believe in Him. If you look at the comparisons made in Scripture, they connect the incarnation and the saving work of Jesus on the cross to other events and persons of sacred history.

If you can so flippantly compare Harry Potter to Jesus, you really need to re-read the Gospels, prayerfully, and ask to know the real Jesus.

 

[Nilloc]

It's not a dodge at all. Jesus was not a sorcerer.

He wasn't a sinner either, but the writers of the NT had no problem with comparing him to sinners.

Jesus did not encourage anyone to practice casting spells, etc.

Nor do I, nor has anyone on this thread. But I'm sure you, like all anti-Potter people, will just repeat the line over and over. Repetition beats good evidence I guess.

If you look at the comparisons made in Scripture, they connect the incarnation and the saving work of Jesus on the cross to other events and persons of sacred history.

Sinful persons who did sinful things. There's no getting around that.

If you can so flippantly compare Harry Potter to Jesus, you really need to re-read the Gospels, prayerfully, and ask to know the real Jesus.

The Gospels don't say there's anything wrong with making literary parallels between Jesus and sinners, just the opposite. You're the one who needs to re-read the Gospels. The real Jesus had no problem being compared to sinners, but you do.

It's obvious that you didn't think about the fact that the Bible does compare Jesus (and God the Father) to sinners, and now that it has been pointed out to you, you're forced to backtrack.

 

[ToBeInChrist]

What is the point of any comparison, what is meant by any such comparison.... You haven't dealt with those issues at all.

So my questions remain unanswered. You are the one dodging. Scripture mentions Jesus as son of Adam, son of God, the seed of Abraham, etc.

You say you see comparisons between Jesus and a character in fiction: an apprentice sorcerer who lies, is rebellious and vindictive, steals, etc. You fail to answer my questions about what kind of comparison you are making and how inappropriate such a comparison is.

Jesus was without sin. Jesus died for sinners. Sinners who repented of sin, who had faith in the messiah are mentioned in Scripture in connection to Christ: what is your point? Harry doesn't repent of sorcery in the series, does he? Surely a Christian would not present Harry as a savior of sinners or lord or Son of God -- such would be blasphemy. So what comparison are you really making? Pagans and heretics make all sorts of comparisons too.

 

[Nilloc]

What is the point of any comparison, what is meant by any such comparison.... You haven't dealt with those issues at all.

I thought that that would be fairly obvious. One, it’s just a fun literary exercise. And two, making biblical comparisons in fiction is another way to present Christianity.

So my questions remain unanswered. You are the one dodging.

Why does there have to be a point? Can I not make a biblical comparison just for the sake of making one? I’m writing a fictional story right now with biblical parallels, just because I realized I can make some pretty good ones, as well as make the story and symbolism richer and deeper.

And isn't it interesting that at first your argument was it's wrong to compare Christ to sinners, but when I pointed out that the NT authors do that, you then changed your argument and said its okay to do that, just as long as its for some undefined point that you're okay with.

Scripture mentions Jesus as son of Adam, son of God, the seed of Abraham, etc.

It also says He’s like Adam, the original sinner; like David, the adulterer; like Joshua, the mass murderer; like Solomon, the idolater. They compare Him to sinners. Just like we compare Christ to Harry Potter.

an apprentice sorcerer who lies, is rebellious and vindictive, steals, etc

Just like the people I mentioned above. In fact, I think Harry was in a lot of ways more moral that some of them.

Harry doesn't repent of sorcery in the series, does he?

The witchcraft condemned in the Bible isn’t the kind in Harry Potter. If that kind of witchcraft really existed and people practiced it, it wouldn’t be sinful. Of course I’ve seen you ignore that on threads on GT, so I not sure why I should even bother to bring it up here.

Surely a Christian would not present Harry as a savior of sinners or lord or Son of God -- such would be blasphemy.

In the story he does save people, but that doesn’t mean I think he’s my savior in real life, or even in the story that he would somehow he would replace Christ. J.K. Rowling is a Christian and I doubt she would say that Harry Potter is her savior. Of course no reasonable person would think that, unless you have to make some ridiculous argument against Harry Potter.

I (along with other people) assume that there are Christian characters in Harry Potter, along with characters of other religions. We don’t really know though since religion is never discussed.

So what comparison are you really making?

Harry “dies” and comes back to life to save people, just as Jesus died and came back to life to save us. Are you really so dense as to not understand this?

Gen 22:12 He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."

Rom 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

Oops! Paul is making a parallel here between the sinful Abraham and sinful Isaac, and God the Father and Jesus. I guess he blasphemed, right?

 

[Incariol]

What is the point of any comparison, what is meant by any such comparison.... You haven't dealt with those issues at all.

So my questions remain unanswered. You are the one dodging. Scripture mentions Jesus as son of Adam, son of God, the seed of Abraham, etc.

You say you see comparisons between Jesus and a character in fiction: an apprentice sorcerer who lies, is rebellious and vindictive, steals, etc. You fail to answer my questions about what kind of comparison you are making and how inappropriate such a comparison is.

Jesus was without sin. Jesus died for sinners. Sinners who repented of sin, who had faith in the messiah are mentioned in Scripture in connection to Christ: what is your point? Harry doesn't repent of sorcery in the series, does he? Surely a Christian would not present Harry as a savior of sinners or lord or Son of God -- such would be blasphemy. So what comparison are you really making? Pagans and heretics make all sorts of comparisons too.

You can compare things without those things being identical. You know that, right? In fact, that is rather the point.

 

[ToBeInChrist]

Why does there have to be a point? Can I not make a biblical comparison just for the sake of making one? I’m writing a fictional story right now with biblical parallels, just because I realized I can make some pretty good ones, as well as make the story and symbolism richer and deeper.

Just how meaningful is it to say something has 'Biblical parallels?' -- many false religions have some 'Biblical parallels'? Just what is meant by a comparison or parallel? Please inform me.

And isn't it interesting that at first your argument was it's wrong to compare Christ to sinners, but when I pointed out that the NT authors do that, you then changed your argument and said its okay to do that, just as long as its for some undefined point that you're okay with.

What I actually said was "There is NO comparison between a teenage sorcerer apprentice and Jesus."

The witchcraft condemned in the Bible isn’t the kind in Harry Potter. If that kind of witchcraft really existed and people practiced it, it wouldn’t be sinful.

Says who? He casts spells. Doesn't he seek out conversations with the dead or spirits, practice divination and enchantments and magic potion-making, etc? All of that is condemned in the bible.

Harry “dies” and comes back to life to save people, just as Jesus died and came back to life to save us. Are you really so dense as to not understand this?

As I said, various pagans and heretics make various comparisons to Christ. There isn't any real comparison between a lying thieving rebellious vindictive teenage sorcerer, or some character in some pagan myth, and Jesus Christ.

 

[AlbusEarwax]

Comparisons are made between Harry Potter stories and what we learn in the Bible because Harry lays down his life for his friends. And that is just the biggining of the comparisons. In fact I have a disability that makes it difficutl for me to understand easily. It was becuase of the Harry Potter books that I first begane to understand why I should not fear death. That when I die it will not be a bad thing. Becuase I will go to be with God in heaven and there are no greater rewards. In a dark place in my life it was an understanding I got from reading the Harry Potter books that lead me back to God, back to chruch back to reading the Bible and praying every day. Hate Harry Potter all you want. I don't mind if you do. You don't have to ever read it or watch it. You don't have to come to conversations about it or talk about it if you don't want to. But judging other people who enjoyed and even learned from it is a wast of your tiem and energy. God will judge us all leave it for him. He's much beter at it than you.

 

[ToBeInChrist]

I don't deny that people may come to adopt different attitudes or become interested in the Bible for all sorts of reasons.

I don't deny that people's reactions are different.

I simply find it important to bring up certain distinctions and issues, re: differences between stories about apprentice sorcerers or monster heroes and stories about non-sorcerers who defeat witches or monsters, differences between having a heart that is entertained by things that are sinful and having a heart that is entertained by things that are of God, differences between encouraging or discouraging the entertainment of sin, between glorifying things of this world or sinful things or discrediting/minimizing Christ or truly glorifying Christ.

 

[Nilloc]

I don't deny that people may come to adopt different attitudes or become interested in the Bible for all sorts of reasons.

I don't deny that people's reactions are different.

I simply find it important to bring up certain distinctions and issues, re: differences between stories about apprentice sorcerers or monster heroes and stories about non-sorcerers who defeat witches or monsters, differences between having a heart that is entertained by things that are sinful and having a heart that is entertained by things that are of God, differences between encouraging or discouraging the entertainment of sin, between glorifying things of this world or sinful things or discrediting/minimizing Christ or truly glorifying Christ.

And as I already said, the witchcraft in Harry Potter is not sinful, but it seems that you've decided to ignore my posts completely now instead of just ignoring some points.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7579420-7/#post58541804

 

[ToBeInChrist]

And as I already said, the witchcraft in Harry Potter is not sinful, but it seems that you've decided to ignore my posts completely now instead of just ignoring some points.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7579420-7/#post58541804

Maybe you missed my answers. Harry potter mutters incantations, doesn't he? My understanding is that he also is taught divination and the making of enchantments and potions. ALL of that is forbidden in Scripture.

That not all of it is copied directly from grimoires or that there is creative license involved doesn't make Harry Potter a proponent of humble prayer and Christian righteousness.

 

[Nilloc]

Maybe you missed my answers. Harry potter mutters incantations, doesn't he?

You are correct. I was in the hurry this afternoon and I do apologize.

Just how meaningful is it to say something has 'Biblical parallels?' -- many false religions have some 'Biblical parallels'? Just what is meant by a comparison or parallel? Please inform me.

I don’t understand what you’re asking about it being meaningful. It’s a fun exercise and can be a way to explain Christianity. Why does it need to be something more than that? Sure false religions have biblical parallels. What does that have to do with anything? Harry Potter is not a false religion.

I really enjoyed reading The Odyssey, even though all of it is about the Greek gods. In fact, I really like Greek mythology and find it fascinating. I read, watch, and write fantasy all the time. I’m sure you object to all that though.

What I actually said was "There is NO comparison between a teenage sorcerer apprentice and Jesus."

There is and just repeating it over and over again doesn’t change anything. Have you actually read the books btw?

Says who?

Says anyone who understands that the OT was not written to twenty-first century Americans and what is being discussed in the OT has nothing to do with Harry Potter.

He casts spells.

Not with the help a pagan god though. Muttering a bunch of Latin and pseudo-Latin phrases isn’t what the OT was talking about. And even if it was, it’s just a story. Nobody believes it’s true. Only Fundamentalist fear mongering would have you believe that it’s harmful.

You could describe what Jesus did in his miracles as magic. Sure He doesn’t say any words, but if some guy was around today doing the same things Jesus did, I’m sure you’d call that magic.

Doesn't he seek out conversations with the dead or spirits

So did Jesus.

practice divination and enchantments and magic potion-making, etc?

None of which has anything to do with what was being condemned in the OT. Harry and his friends don’t call upon some pagan god to do these things.

As I said, various pagans and heretics make various comparisons to Christ.

So what? Neither Harry Potter nor J.K. Rowling is a pagan. In fact the latter has affirmed she is a Christian and there are some clues in the books to suggest the former is a Christian as well.

There isn't any real comparison between a lying thieving rebellious vindictive teenage sorcerer, or some character in some pagan myth, and Jesus Christ.

Yes there is. Comparisons and parallels that don’t have to be perfect. Just look at all similes in the Bible for God and Jesus and you’ll see they’re not perfect comparisons, because perfect comparisons can be very rare, especially in religion. Of course the fact that the NT does compare Christ to imperfect things is still lost on you apparently.

Besides, Jesus is compared to as a thief in both the Gospels and Pauline epistles. Isn’t that ironic? And Paul quotes from pagan poets. He didn’t have any problem reading such things.

That not all of it is copied directly from grimoires or that there is creative license involved doesn't make Harry Potter a proponent of humble prayer and Christian righteousness.

Harry and his friends demonstrate a lot of great Christian values and shows what it can be like for teenagers to grow up, your ignorant comments not withstanding.

 

[ToBeInChrist]

So he does sorcery, he's reciting incantations for magical effect, making potions, casting enchantments -- all of which is forbidden in Scripture -- all of it is identified as sinful in the OT and NT.

As a matter of the heart, I don't want to be entertained by sin.

You could describe what Jesus did in his miracles as magic. Sure He doesn’t say any words, but if some guy was around today doing the same things Jesus did, I’m sure you’d call that magic.

Pagans, apostates, heretics, and all sorts of new agers, occults and members of false religions say stuff like that, but as a Christian, I clearly distinguish between miracles and occultism or magic.

 

[Nilloc]

So he does sorcery, he's reciting incantations for magical effect, making potions, casting enchantments -- all of which is forbidden in Scripture -- all of it is identified as sinful in the OT and NT.

And you still ignore why witchcraft is condemned--it's okay though, I understand to do so completely undermines your position.

It's not because of saying spells or making potions are bad inherently, it's because it was used as worship of pagan gods. God doesn't just say things are wrong for the sake of it, He does so for a reason. The reason for condemning witchcraft was because it was part of the pagan religions. This is not the case with Harry Potter, which I suspect you haven't read, and thus you have no idea what you're talking about.

If you're going to ignore the intent behind what is commanded, then I hope you treat women as property and cut off your limbs when they cause you to sin.

If Paul was entertained when reading pagan poets, I don't see why I can't be entertained when reading a book with Christian values with a possible Christian protagonist written by a Christian.

Pagans, apostates, heretics, and all sorts of new agers, occults and members of false religions say stuff like that, but as a Christian, I clearly distinguish between miracles and occultism or magic.

You must distinguish between them because your position demands you do. A guy talks with dead people, raises the dead, and performs hearings. Could be reasonably described as "magic" to me.

And btw, another brilliant job of ignoring the more damaging points against your view.

 

[ToBeInChrist]

And you still ignore why witchcraft is condemned--it's okay though, I understand to do so completely undermines your position.

The Bible says various practices are unacceptable, and sorcercy, divination, astrology, etc., is condemned. If it is done totally on a lark as a scientific experiment without believing in some pagan god or without using an idol, it is still wrong.

I'm trying to take seriously what God is saying, and I'm wanting to be obedient, and I'm wanting my heart to enjoy what God enjoys. So I don't want to be entertained by sorcery.

It's not because of saying spells or making potions are bad inherently, it's because it was used as worship of pagan gods.

Says who?

I want to respect God, I want to consider God's ways, I want to lovingly be faithful to Him, I do not want to do what is horrible in his sight.

I take the Bible seriously, and I see things like this:

Deuteronomy 18:9-12 "When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee."

Leviticus 19:31 "Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God."

Matthew 15:18-20 "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man."

Acts 19:18-19 "And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds. Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver."

Galatians 5:19-21 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

Revelations 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
​

You must distinguish between them because your position demands you do. A guy talks with dead people, raises the dead, and performs hearings. Could be reasonably described as "magic" to me.

God, the creator, speaks and then it happens, and can perform miracles.