Harmony or Conflict?

[2Timothy2:15]

Is that what you would say to Jesus when he said that to the Pharisees? The point of the message is they are trying to learn about Jesus. It’s not whether they should remain in the hospital the question is should they be refused treatment if they are coming to hear the word of God. Seeking the word of God is not refusing treatment. Everyone is a sinner and if sinners aren’t allowed in the church it would be either empty or full of liars and hypocrites. Jesus said if you are guilty of breaking one of the commandments you are guilty of breaking all of them. God views it as you either kept His commandments or you didn’t. There’s no in between.

There is a ton doctrinaly wrong with your statement. We are not to allow unrepentant people who continue in blatant sin openly to remain among us whether it be a drunk, wife beater, fornicator, homosexual, or thief.

You are also making a ton of assumptions as to why they are there. You assume they are there to hear to word of God. But if they were there to hear the word of God why do they not obey it and openly rebel with their lifestyle? How do you not know if they are there to corrupt the church as a whole? How about they might be there to have someone coddle their sin deceiving them that they are ok with God even though the very lifestyle they lead flies in the face of everything the Lord said is good? You are basing your opinion on social bias and not on the word.

 

[dreadnought]

As regards your context - true. There are too many churches swaying to populism
Indeed such as "pro life" have been doctrine since ancient times.

My remark regarded (for example) mutually contradictory variants of baptism, eucharist, salvation etc.

There are honest disagreements in church about matters that some people feel are very important. In some instances, the Lord makes his will very clear, though.

 

[dreadnought]

Yes you should speak up. But I will say this, get ready for a battle, a spiritual battle. The Lord will reward you in the end for standing up for truth. You may lose friends and other things, but Jesus said, count the cost.

My experience is that the church leadership does not like it when you stand up to them, but you gain a lot of respect in your congregation.

 

[Danielwright2311]

But then Jesus said all sorts of things which appear to contradict if you are too litera.
Take. "honour your father" "hate your father" "call no man father". Which are contradictory at first sight. As is the fact that (elsewhere) God asks others to call themselves father - even adopt that name in Abrahams case!

But if you understand context , understand figures of speech, and see what the apostolic succession thought he meant there is no contradiction.

Sothe contradiction is superficial not real.


So your interpretation of Paul and Jesus, may well be the problem..

Yes and I follow only Jesus, he is the son of God who can save you not any one else.

He cant contradict, he is God and can change or can make clear of what is really what.

So what your saying is because Jesus sounds like he might contradict then Paul is not contradicting?

What part of Paul can save my soul?

How can following Paul save my soul?

Nothing Paul wrote will save me, nothing.

Jesus already gave us all the full , 100 percent full testimony, Paul's is not needed.

 

[BNR32FAN]

There is a ton doctrinaly wrong with your statement. We are not to allow unrepentant people who continue in blatant sin openly to remain among us whether it be a drunk, wife beater, fornicator, homosexual, or thief.

You are also making a ton of assumptions as to why they are there. You assume they are there to hear to word of God. But if they were there to hear the word of God why do they not obey it and openly rebel with their lifestyle? How do you not know if they are there to corrupt the church as a whole? How about they might be there to have someone coddle their sin deceiving them that they are ok with God even though the very lifestyle they lead flies in the face of everything the Lord said is good? You are basing your opinion on social bias and not on the word.

Brother should reject them out of fear of temptation? Look around you we are surrounded by people living in sin everyday. Don’t you understand that these people need us to embrace them as former sinners ourselves. I was once one of them and I know that with my testimony of God’s work in my life that there is hope for these people who are seeking God. If these people are looking for someone to condone their sin in the church that’s not going to happen unless you allow it to happen. We don’t condone sin but we can say that it’s ok that you have sinned but you can be forgiven if you turn from your sin and turn to Jesus. These people desperately need our help. If we shun them then we are acting like we are righteous and better than they are based solely on the fact that we came to know Christ before they did. I was a terrible sinner but I’ve changed my life and come to Christ. I am no better than any other sinner just because I’ve come to Christ and they haven’t yet. We don’t know what God’s plan for them is yet. If Jesus had never embraced Matthew he would’ve never been an apostle.

 

[Wordkeeper]

There’s also another difference that this man was boasting about his sin and the church didn’t rebuke him. It truly saddens me to see that a church of God would take such an unnecessary approach that could be more harmful to that person than good. So where do you draw the line? Smokers banned, how about people with expensive jewelry or sports cars and other worldly pesessions? Maybe someone is too timid to share the gospel with others or worries or doubts? These are just a few examples of living in sin. If smokers are banned what about other unhealthy habits? Drinking coffee, fast food, maybe someone is obese because they don’t take care of their body, will they also be rejected because they are living in sin? And how often do you sin? Do you not sin on a daily basis? How often is committing sin considered to be living in sin? So like I said where do you draw the line between people who are not as righteous as you are and yourself? Do we compare their sins to ours? Is that the standard? What if someone else is more righteous than you? Should they then kick you out? This is a terrible idea. I was a terrible sinner when I came to my church and after believing I backslid many times and if I had been kicked out of the church for it I guarantee I would’ve been too ashamed to ever step foot in a place where I knew that people would be judging me. This sounds more like a members only club.

It works both ways. How much sin is acceptable before it requires rejection? Are you saying an incestuous relationship is too much, but living out of wedlock is Okay? Who decides?

 

[2Timothy2:15]

Look around you we are surrounded by people living in sin everyday. Don’t you understand that these people need us to embrace them as former sinners ourselves.

1 Corinthians 5
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

 

[Episaw]

When a church or religious organization teaches something that conflicts with what Jesus or God taught us, is it better to stand up and speak out against what the church or religious organization is teaching, or is it better to be quiet and maintain harmony?

The last church where I questioned something being taught, they threw me out and took out a restraining order against me in the secular courts which the scripture says not to do. In hindsight, it was a cult as they had an enforcer to deal with anyone who questioned the leadership.

 

[dreadnought]

The last church where I questioned something being taught, they threw me out and took out a restraining order against me in the secular courts which the scripture says not to do. In hindsight, it was a cult as they had an enforcer to deal with anyone who questioned the leadership.

How were they able to take out a restraining order?

 

[Episaw]

How were they able to take out a restraining order?

They went to the local court and said I did, this that and the other which were mainly lies and the court gave them an AVO that said I was not to go near them for two years. I had written to the court and told them I would not be there as the Bible forbids us to go to a secular court for this sort of thing.

 

[dreadnought]

They went to the local court and said I did, this that and the other which were mainly lies and the court gave them an AVO that said I was not to go near them for two years. I had written to the court and told them I would not be there as the Bible forbids us to go to a secular court for this sort of thing.

Perhaps you should have gone and given your side of the story. It might not have helped - I don't think courts are always fair about this sort of thing.

 

[Episaw]

Perhaps you should have gone and given your side of the story. It might not have helped - I don't think courts are always fair about this sort of thing.

I didn't go because the scriptures are clear. You don't go to secular courts to sort out your differences.

 

[justbyfaith]

Luke 16:10 tells us that even the minors are important when it comes to doctrine; in fact, they may be even more important than the major doctrines when determining if a minister is faithful.

But personally, I don't make a stink. I just pray.

 

[BradB]

When a church or religious organization teaches something that conflicts with what Jesus or God taught us, is it better to stand up and speak out against what the church or religious organization is teaching, or is it better to be quiet and maintain harmony?

Let's look at what God's word says. We know as Christians we are called to go into all the world and preach the gospel. What is the gospel? It is that Man sinned and are all headed to and deserve an eternal hell, but God's so loved us that He sent His Son to die in our place, that if we would place total faith in the work of Christ we should not perish but have eternal life. So this always must be our main focus. We can get derailed into all kinds of "causes." There are millions of "worth-while" causes out there that are very good. But we can't let ourselves get distracted from our main mission. Should we speak out against abortion? Absolutely! Should we speak out against same sex marriage? Without a doubt! Should we warn people of a false teacher or religion? YES! But we can't let any cause no matter how "worthy" it is take precedence over our main objective. Most of the things the devil wants us to get tangled up in would actually work themselves out if we start winning lost souls to Christ. They don't want to do any of those things anymore once saved and God's truth would reveal the false teachers. The scriptures tell us we are like soldiers sent to a far country who do not want to become entangled in the affairs of that land. (2Tim. 2:4) And finally don't forget how the disciples wanted to go after the Pharisees and set them "straight." But Jesus said "let them alone, they are blind leading the blind and both will fall into the ditch." You can literally burn yourself out trying to correct the uncorrectable.

 

[Episaw]

Let's look at what God's word says. We know as Christians we are called to go into all the world and preach the gospel. What is the gospel? It is that Man sinned and are all headed to and deserve an eternal hell, but God's so loved us that He sent His Son to die in our place, that if we would place total faith in the work of Christ we should not perish but have eternal life. So this always must be our main focus. We can get derailed into all kinds of "causes." There are millions of "worth-while" causes out there that are very good. But we can't let ourselves get distracted from our main mission. Should we speak out against abortion? Absolutely! Should we speak out against same sex marriage? Without a doubt! Should we warn people of a false teacher or religion? YES! But we can't let any cause no matter how "worthy" it is take precedence over our main objective. Most of the things the devil wants us to get tangled up in would actually work themselves out if we start winning lost souls to Christ. They don't want to do any of those things anymore once saved and God's truth would reveal the false teachers. The scriptures tell us we are like soldiers sent to a far country who do not want to become entangled in the affairs of that land. (2Tim. 2:4) And finally don't forget how the disciples wanted to go after the Pharisees and set them "straight." But Jesus said "let them alone, they are blind leading the blind and both will fall into the ditch." You can literally burn yourself out trying to correct the uncorrectable.

I am not sure how that answers the question which is addressed to church matters, not what is going on in the world.

 

[BradB]

I am not sure how that answers the question which is addressed to church matters, not what is going on in the world.

Hmm... the question again was

When a church or religious organization teaches something that conflicts with what Jesus or God taught us, is it better to stand up and speak out against what the church or religious organization is teaching, or is it better to be quiet and maintain harmony?

So the questions main focus is on the "goal" of the Christian. Are we here to walk in total harmony at all cost? Or are we here to take a stand against false teachings in churches? My answer was in a way neither and both, pointing out that our goal is not to go set all false teachers straight. Our goal is to preach the gospel to the world. In the process this may involve speaking out against a false teaching or it may be remaining silent. It depends on the circumstances and which action best serves that primary goal. I'll give you a personal example. I attended a small Southern Baptist church for about ten years and was very active teaching adult Sunday school and going on mission trips. All with the primary goal of furthering the gospel. This was done even though this church held the very unbiblical teachings against the baptism of the Holy Spirit today with the outward evidence of speaking in tongues, and the unbiblical teaching of predestination. I knew that neither of these issues were essential to salvation and could hold my peace for harmony's sake. However the Sunday my pastor stood behind the pulpit and preached that in the parable of the great wedding feast believers have to earn their wedding garments... I took a big issue. I spoke with the pastor privately by phone about it on several occasions and when it was clear he had no intentions of recanting this heresy, I resigned from my position at the church and so did my wife who was acting church treasurer. We promptly moved on to another church.

So again we have to stay focused on our main objective. We don't get caught up in the "good cause" causes and the "rightful stand" stances, to the point they deviate us from our objective.

 

[Episaw]

Hmm... the question again was So the questions main focus is on the "goal" of the Christian. Are we here to walk in total harmony at all cost? Or are we here to take a stand against false teachings in churches? My answer was in a way neither and both, pointing out that our goal is not to go set all false teachers straight. Our goal is to preach the gospel to the world. In the process this may involve speaking out against a false teaching or it may be remaining silent. It depends on the circumstances and which action best serves that primary goal. I'll give you a personal example. I attended a small Southern Baptist church for about ten years and was very active teaching adult Sunday school and going on mission trips. All with the primary goal of furthering the gospel. This was done even though this church held the very unbiblical teachings against the baptism of the Holy Spirit today with the outward evidence of speaking in tongues, and the unbiblical teaching of predestination. I knew that neither of these issues were essential to salvation and could hold my peace for harmony's sake. However the Sunday my pastor stood behind the pulpit and preached that in the parable of the great wedding feast believers have to earn their wedding garments... I took a big issue. I spoke with the pastor privately by phone about it on several occasions and when it was clear he had no intentions of recanting this heresy, I resigned from my position at the church and so did my wife who was acting church treasurer. We promptly moved on to another church.

So again we have to stay focused on our main objective. We don't get caught up in the "good cause" causes and the "rightful stand" stances, to the point they deviate us from our objective.

Whose to say they are unbiblical? Millions would disagree with you.

 

[BradB]

Whose to say they are unbiblical? Millions would disagree with you.

Well I did say that they were non-essential and that's why I never took any issue with them about it for over 10 years. The Bible is the one that "says." It teaches us the baptism of the Holy Spirit and tongues are for us, and that predestination is false. But of course to discuss such matters here would be off topic. If you wish to discuss it more with me I'd be happy to follow you to a thread of your choosing. Just shoot me a link.

 

[John Belinus]

Better to point out the hypocrisy.

 

[Episaw]

Well I did say that they were non-essential and that's why I never took any issue with them about it for over 10 years. The Bible is the one that "says." It teaches us the baptism of the Holy Spirit and tongues are for us, and that predestination is false. But of course to discuss such matters here would be off topic. If you wish to discuss it more with me I'd be happy to follow you to a thread of your choosing. Just shoot me a link.

And you said they were unbiblical.