Harmony or Conflict?

jamesbond007 · May 16, 2018

Danielwright2311 said:
Many things

List of 24 Contradictions

• Jesus Says Not To Eat Meat Sacrificed to Idols, But Paul Says It Is Ok

• Jesus Says The Law Continues, But Paul Says No

• Paul Says The Pharisees Followed The Law Rigorously, But Jesus Says They Were Lax About The Law

• Jesus Says Salvation Initiates And Continues By Repentance From Sin and Obedience Besides Faith; Paul Says This is Heresy

• Jesus Tells Apostles To Teach His Commands Given Prior to His Ascension While In The Flesh, But Paul Says Not To Do So

• Paul Says Elders Are Entitled To Pay for 'Preaching & Teaching,' But Jesus Says No

• Jesus Teaches There Are Only 12 Apostles Into Eternity, But Paul Adds Himself To The List As a Thirteenth

• Paul Exhorts Celibacy, But Jesus Clearly Says It is A Choice Not Within Everyone's Power

• Jesus Says There Is One Pastor and Teacher (Himself), But Paul Says There Are Many Pastors and Teachers

• Paul Says God Is The God of the Dead, But Jesus Says God Is Not The God of the Dead

• Paul Says God Does Not Live in Temples Made of Human Hands, But Jesus Says He Does

• Jesus says Nations Of The World Are Under Satan, But Paul Says Its Rulers Are Agents of God

• Jesus Teaches Rapture is Of Evil Ones First, But Paul Teaches The Opposite

• Jesus Says A Call Is Revocable, But Paul Says It Is Irrevocable

• Jesus Says Some Are Righteous, But Paul Says It Is Impossible

• Paul Excludes Eating With Sinners But Christ's Example We Are To Follow, and the Lost Sheep Parable, Is Contrary

• Paul Teaches We Are Eternally Secure, But Jesus Teaches Insecurity to a Sinning Believer

• Paul Teaches In Original Sin But Jesus Contradicts

• Paul Denies Obedience Grants Any Righteousness Unto Life, But Jesus Says It Does

• Jesus Sends The Apostles to Baptize, But Paul Says Jesus Did Not Send Him to Baptize

• Jesus Says the Merciful Receive Mercy, But Paul Says Only Those God Chooses Arbitrarily Will Receive Mercy

• Paul Says Salvation Does Not Depend Upon Exertion, But Jesus Says It Does

• Paul Says He Could Be Justified of The Sin that Never Could be Justified under the Law given Moses (Blasphemy), but Jesus says to the contrary that it is The Unpardonable Sin.

• Paul Says Flesh will not inherit the Kingdom of God, but Jesus in Flesh ascended to heaven, and promises to resurrect our bodies to heaven / New Jerusalem, giving us the same physical resurrection that Jesus had.

I just wanted to add that Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles.

"Moreover, Paul thought that the purpose of this revelation was his own appointment to preach among the Gentiles (Galatians 1:16). By the time of his last extant letter, Romans, he could clearly describe his own place in God’s plan. The Hebrew prophets, he wrote, had predicted that in “days to come” God would restore the tribes of Israel and that the Gentiles would then turn to worship the one true God. Paul maintained that his place in this scheme was to win the Gentiles, both Greeks and “barbarians”—the common term for non-Greeks at the time (Romans 1:14). “Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I glorify my ministry in order to make my own people jealous, and thus save some of them” (Romans 11:13–14). In two other places in Romans 11—verses 25–26 (“the full number of the Gentiles [will] come in” and thus “all Israel will be saved”) and 30–31 (“by the mercy shown to you, they too may now receive mercy”)—Paul asserts that he would save some of Israel indirectly, through jealousy, and that Jews would be brought to Christ because of the successful Gentile mission. Thus, Paul’s view reversed the traditional understanding of God’s plan, according to which Israel would be restored before the Gentiles were converted. Whereas Peter, James, and John, the chief apostles to the circumcised (Galatians 2:6–10), had been relatively unsuccessful, God had led Paul through Asia Minor and Greece “in triumph” and had used him to spread “the fragrance that comes from knowing him [God]” (2 Corinthians 2:14). Since in Paul’s view God’s plan could not be frustrated, he concluded that it would work in reverse sequence—first the Gentiles, then the Jews."

Saint Paul, the Apostle | Biography & Facts

Micah888 · May 16, 2018

dreadnought said:
But when a pastor is leading a congregation astray, I think it is best to speak up.

Ideally, you are correct. However, chances are it will make no difference to the church, the pastor, or the denomination. They will continue on their path. Then it is you who will need to make a tough decision -- do I stay and lend my support to this, or do I leave and find a more compatible church?

Mountainmike · May 16, 2018

dreadnought said:
When a church or religious organization teaches something that conflicts with what Jesus or God taught us, is it better to stand up and speak out against what the church or religious organization is teaching, or is it better to be quiet and maintain harmony?

What you probably mean is when a church teaches something that in your - or your churches OPINION conflicts... and there is the root of all the dissent..generally founded on a (false) belief that scripture alone is enough , and all can interpret scripture. Which is demontrably false, else why so many dissenting views?

And the only way to resolve it , is to go back to the early church, when faith was passed by tradition (that is apostolic handing down) , indeed the fathers who sat on the councils who decided the canon and creed with the power to "bind and loose" and see whether it conflicted with what they believed.

Danielwright2311 · May 16, 2018

jamesbond007 said:
I just wanted to add that Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles.

"Moreover, Paul thought that the purpose of this revelation was his own appointment to preach among the Gentiles (Galatians 1:16). By the time of his last extant letter, Romans, he could clearly describe his own place in God’s plan. The Hebrew prophets, he wrote, had predicted that in “days to come” God would restore the tribes of Israel and that the Gentiles would then turn to worship the one true God. Paul maintained that his place in this scheme was to win the Gentiles, both Greeks and “barbarians”—the common term for non-Greeks at the time (Romans 1:14). “Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I glorify my ministry in order to make my own people jealous, and thus save some of them” (Romans 11:13–14). In two other places in Romans 11—verses 25–26 (“the full number of the Gentiles [will] come in” and thus “all Israel will be saved”) and 30–31 (“by the mercy shown to you, they too may now receive mercy”)—Paul asserts that he would save some of Israel indirectly, through jealousy, and that Jews would be brought to Christ because of the successful Gentile mission. Thus, Paul’s view reversed the traditional understanding of God’s plan, according to which Israel would be restored before the Gentiles were converted. Whereas Peter, James, and John, the chief apostles to the circumcised (Galatians 2:6–10), had been relatively unsuccessful, God had led Paul through Asia Minor and Greece “in triumph” and had used him to spread “the fragrance that comes from knowing him [God]” (2 Corinthians 2:14). Since in Paul’s view God’s plan could not be frustrated, he concluded that it would work in reverse sequence—first the Gentiles, then the Jews."

Saint Paul, the Apostle | Biography & Facts

He was a self appointed Apostle teaching against what Jesus taught.

jamesbond007 · May 16, 2018

dreadnought said:
Yes, all sex out of wedlock is sin. Homosexuals might counter that there is nothing wrong with two men marrying each other, but God taught us otherwise in Leviticus 18:22.

Maybe Leviticus 18:22 taught us so, but even if you're for Matthew 19:4-6, then it behooves the complainer to stay out of the sin of sex out of wedlock.

John 8:7 ESV
And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.”

Matthew 7:3 ESV
Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

Mountainmike · May 16, 2018

Danielwright2311 said:
He was a self appointed Apostle teaching against what Jesus taught.

What - you mean apostle Paul?
Certainly not self appointed.

dreadnought · May 16, 2018

Micah888 said:
Ideally, you are correct. However, chances are it will make no difference to the church, the pastor, or the denomination. They will continue on their path. Then it is you who will need to make a tough decision -- do I stay and lend my support to this, or do I leave and find a more compatible church?

It's good for someone in a church to stand up for what's right. Actually, it's good if everybody in the church does that, but one is better than zero.

dreadnought · May 16, 2018

Mountainmike said:
What you probably mean is when a church teaches something that in your - or your churches OPINION conflicts... and there is the root of all the dissent..generally founded on a (false) belief that scripture alone is enough , and all can interpret scripture. Which is demontrably false, else why so many dissenting views?

And the only way to resolve it , is to go back to the early church, when faith was passed by tradition (that is apostolic handing down) , indeed the fathers who sat on the councils who decided the canon and creed with the power to "bind and loose" and see whether it conflicted with what they believed.

Sometimes the issue is very clear. In our church conference, the main problem I see is pastors giving their blessing to homosexuality. The Lord made it very clear that this is a sin (Leviticus 18:22).

Danielwright2311 · May 16, 2018

Mountainmike said:
What - you mean apostle Paul?
Certainly not self appointed.

God would not appoint any one who contradicts His own sons words.

Either Paul is a liar or Jesus, I choose Paul as the liar.

I follow Jesus only.

Why do you need Paul? can he save you from sin? no, so nothing he says I don't follow.

jamesbond007 · May 16, 2018

Danielwright2311 said:
He was a self appointed Apostle teaching against what Jesus taught.

Do you think this? That the Bible contains contradictions? Certainly, Paul was not like the other Apostles and I would think the 24 contradictions that you listed were written in the books Paul wrote. Paul seemed to be a great Apostle in his own right.

Date (A.D.) Name of Books - Where did Paul write it (or them)
50 1Thessalonians - In Corinth, during his second missionary journey.
51 2Thessalonians - In Corinth, during his second missionary journey.
53 (Late Spring) Galatians - In Antioch (Syria), just before the start of his third missionary journey.
56 (Late Winter) 1Corinthians - In Ephesus, during his third missionary journey.
57 (Late Summer) 2Corinthians - In Ephesus, during his third missionary journey.
57 (Winter) Romans - In Macedonia, toward the end of his third missionary journey.
61 (Early Spring) Hebrews - While traveling during his fourth missionary journey.
61 to 63 Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Philemon - He wrote all four books while in Rome as a prisoner.
63 1Timothy, Titus - Paul wrote these two books in Nicopolis, right after he was released from a prison in Rome.
67 2Timothy - Paul wrote his last book to his best friend Timothy, while he was a prisoner in Rome for the last time.
70 Jerusalem's second temple (also known as Herod's temple) is destroyed and burned to the ground by the Romans.

Mountainmike · May 16, 2018

Danielwright2311 said:
God would not appoint any one who contradicts His own sons words.

Either Paul is a liar or Jesus, I choose Paul as the liar.

I follow Jesus only.

Why do you need Paul? can he save you from sin? no, so nothing he says I don't follow.

Unusual. So which bits of bible do you accept?
And why do you say Paul contradicted Jesus?

The fundamental difficulty with your position is it is completely at odds with the early church and apostolic fathers and the faith they handed down.

Micah888 · May 16, 2018

Danielwright2311 said:
Either Paul is a liar or Jesus, I choose Paul as the liar.

So have you made sure to tear out over half your New Testament? But since Peter, James, and John also agreed with Paul, perhaps 80% of your NT should be discarded. That is only logical.

Danielwright2311 · May 16, 2018

jamesbond007 said:
Do you think this? That the Bible contains contradictions? Certainly, Paul was not like the other Apostles and I would think the 24 contradictions that you listed were written in the books Paul wrote. Paul seemed to be a great Apostle in his own right.

Date (A.D.) Name of Books - Where did Paul write it (or them)
50 1Thessalonians - In Corinth, during his second missionary journey.
51 2Thessalonians - In Corinth, during his second missionary journey.
53 (Late Spring) Galatians - In Antioch (Syria), just before the start of his third missionary journey.
56 (Late Winter) 1Corinthians - In Ephesus, during his third missionary journey.
57 (Late Summer) 2Corinthians - In Ephesus, during his third missionary journey.
57 (Winter) Romans - In Macedonia, toward the end of his third missionary journey.
61 (Early Spring) Hebrews - While traveling during his fourth missionary journey.
61 to 63 Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Philemon - He wrote all four books while in Rome as a prisoner.
63 1Timothy, Titus - Paul wrote these two books in Nicopolis, right after he was released from a prison in Rome.
67 2Timothy - Paul wrote his last book to his best friend Timothy, while he was a prisoner in Rome for the last time.
70 Jerusalem's second temple (also known as Herod's temple) is destroyed and burned to the ground by the Romans.

PAUL CONTRADICTED Jesus, PERIOD.

I already posted the truth

why deny facts?

Danielwright2311 · May 16, 2018

Micah888 said:
So have you made sure to tear out over half your New Testament? But since Peter, James, and John also agreed with Paul, perhaps 80% of your NT should be discarded. That is only logical.

No, just what goes against what Jesus taught.

Mountainmike · May 16, 2018

dreadnought said:
Sometimes the issue is very clear. In our church conference, the main problem I see is pastors giving their blessing to homosexuality. The Lord made it very clear that this is a sin (Leviticus 18:22).

As regards your context - true. There are too many churches swaying to populism
Indeed such as "pro life" have been doctrine since ancient times.

My remark regarded (for example) mutually contradictory variants of baptism, eucharist, salvation etc.

Micah888 · May 16, 2018

Danielwright2311 said:
PAUL CONTRADICTED Jesus, PERIOD.

It only appears that way. The truth is that it was IMPOSSIBLE for Paul to contradict Christ, since ALL his epistles were regarded as Scripture by Peter, and subsequently by the Church. So it was the Holy Spirit who gave the words to Paul, and he simply wrote them down faithfully.

Mountainmike · May 16, 2018

Danielwright2311 said:
No, just what goes against what Jesus taught.

You mean. Your opinion of what Jesus meant in his context, disagrees with your opinon of what Paul meant speaking in a different context about a similar subject (but not necessarily the same).
So perhaps it is your opinions at fault!

Danielwright2311 · May 16, 2018

Micah888 said:
It only appears that way. The truth is that it was IMPOSSIBLE for Paul to contradict Christ, since ALL his epistles were regarded as Scripture by Peter, and subsequently by the Church. So it was the Holy Spirit who gave the words to Paul, and he simply wrote them down faithfully.

No, there is no appearance of anything, point blank he contradicted Jesus.

Danielwright2311 · May 16, 2018

Mountainmike said:
You mean. Your opinion of what Jesus meant in his context, disagrees with your opinon of what Paul meant speaking in a different context about a similar subject (but not necessarily the same).
So perhaps it is your opinions at fault!

Paul contradicting Jesus is not any one opinion, its fact

jamesbond007 · May 16, 2018

Danielwright2311 said:
God would not appoint any one who contradicts His own sons words.

Either Paul is a liar or Jesus, I choose Paul as the liar.

I follow Jesus only.

Why do you need Paul? can he save you from sin? no, so nothing he says I don't follow.

Paul may not be the liar, but others have made him out to be the liar.

Let's look at it from an objective moral view or God's view. If we describe God, then he's like us as the Bible tells us. With Paul, Jesus chose the perfect Apostle to replace Judas Iscariot. Paul could not write the contradictions as stated because there are no contradictions in God's Word. These are just the twisting by people who do not understand or want to put in the contradictions. The way we view Paul's words today would be different in Paul's time. His writings clearly break Christianity from the Jews and the Torah, but he's not anti-Israel; At the same time Paul writes for the Gentiles.

Harmony or Conflict?

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