Harmonizing the science we have with the faith

[TheBear]

Saved from Annihilation, Total Destruction or from perishing. Only though Jesus can we receive eternal life. Without Jesus we end up perishing like the animals.

I'll just opt out of the whole thing. Is that an option?

 

[CaliforniaSun]

Saved from Annihilation, Total Destruction or from perishing. Only though Jesus can we receive eternal life. Without Jesus we end up perishing like the animals.

Yep, sooner or later, we all die.

 

[FanofChrist]

The conclusion for me is that the Bible is talking about the Garden of Eden. Indeed Science and Evolution does tell us that the Middle East is a biodiversity hotspot. But there are other "Edens" (hotspots) not just the one we read about in the Bible. What is unique about the Middle East is that this is were farming, the herding of animals, even civilization and cities began. In what they call the furtile crescent.

For me there is no conflict between the Bible and Science. But I only try to get the Bible to line up with the last 12,900 years. OEC people have to accept that for them a day in Genesis is not the same length. For GAP a day is 1000 years and that all works out just fine.

I thought a day really was 24 hours in Gap Theory?

I'd link the Wikipedia but it won't let me.

 

[TheBear]

Fan, based on what you've said so far, and based on the people you look to for guidance, there is no reconciliation unless you're good at cognitive dissonance. Even attempting to work it in over stages, there's so much lacking.

I do give you credit for honest inquiry, though.

 

[Tiberius]

Over the last two years or so, I've had much difficulty, as many have, with the evolution/creation debate. It is difficult for me to create a hybrid of the two because it seems challenging to make the Biblical narrative match up with 13.7 billion years of secular, scientific history.

The trouble is that you seem to be starting with the assumption that there is a way to make them match up, that they are both right.

 

[Elendur]

Saved from Annihilation, Total Destruction or from perishing. Only though Jesus can we receive eternal life. Without Jesus we end up perishing like the animals.

Is that so? Don't we go to hell and receive eternal life there?

 

[AV1611VET]

Is that so? Don't we go to hell and receive eternal life there?

Eternal death.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

"Works" strikes me as a very vague word.

 

[KCfromNC]

Religion does not save you, only Jesus can save you. He is the only way.

Why does he get to be in charge? I don't remember voting for him.

 

[KhaosTheory]

So you believe there is a god and that this god decided that mankind would be born as sinners against him because of the whole apple thing.

BUT this god some time later decided that he wanted to offer the chance for the sinners to make it up to him, because he loves them or something
SO this god fertalised a young girl with himself and she gave birth to him.

This god then went on to die horribly so that mankind could have a way to escape from this gods terrible judgement.

However being a jealous and mildly psychotic god he also decided that people should have free will and be able to judge his exsistence on the facts, however he also decided that providing actual facts that people could see and believe in was too much bother and that he would simply boil people for eternity if they made the wrong choice.

You believe in a god that wants to save you from himself, keep you for eternity and burn for eternity those that think its all hokum.

I'm sure i missed out something, but frankly neither option of heaven or hell feels too appatising, imagine how bored you will be after the 1st thousand million trillion years and it never ends!!!
Thankfully I am not so burdened and I hope the OP will eventualy be unburdened as well.

Yeah the funny thing is that people in Christ's time supposedly SAW miracles and proof of God's existence with their own eyes and they still rejected him...

Yet today if we don't accept Him without even a tiny shred of evidence, we go straight to hell...

Doesn't seem very fair does it?

I wouldn't have any problem accepting anything the Bible said if I saw what the ancient people supposedly saw.

 

[AV1611VET]

"Works" strikes me as a very vague word.

It does me too, but the only reason the dead is being judged for their works -- (and not their faith) -- is to show them where in Hell they are going to spend eternity.

Notice that the rich man in Luke 16 was a very religious man -- he even called Abraham, 'Father Abraham.'

He got the outer environments of Hell, where it's not that hot (by comparison).

By the same token, those alive in Christ will also be judged by their works, but only to show them where in Heaven they are going to spend eternity.

1 Corinthians 3:11 ¶ For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[AV1611VET]

Why does he get to be in charge? I don't remember voting for him.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

 

[KhaosTheory]

Certainly sounds logical to me, my friends, and thanks for the replies and the welcome to the boards. What do you think of my idea that God may have ended various combinations of mammal/amphibian/reptile life in phases during the flood, and altered (to some degree) the radiometric/carbon dating results? Not to a point to where they didn't reflect reality, but to where our ways of measuring what the results represent are off.

Oh man, I feel for you... You sound just like me 4 years ago...

Trying to reconcile your heavy, heavy indoctrination with reality...

I've tried... Believe me... and it's just not possible.

I've never heard your theory on fossils and creationism before; so props to you for thinking outside the box. I like a free-thinker.

The problem I see with your theory is that we still have lesser evolved animals around today (look up "living fossils")

If God killed all the less evolved plants and animals in sequential order then it doesn't explain why we still have jurodid beetles or ginkgo plants.

Also it doesn't explain how these animals and plants would all be deposited in sequential layers... A flood would wash over everything making all the fossils jumbled up.

Now, if you assume that God put the fossils in the ground in sequential order giving them the appearance of age without any physical explanation just to prove a point to us, then I would ask you to show my why that assumption is valid.

When have you ever known the God of the Bible to be deceptive or confusing? It's against his very nature to do such things. Whenever he wanted to prove his point, he would clearly show us with a miracle or obvious sign.

God clearly showed his existence to a bunch of superstitous, bronze age people through amazing displays of power.
Heck, he simply blasted Saul off his feet when he wanted to get his attention...

Yet we in an advanced, non-superstitious culture are just supposed to accept evidence of His existence from someone's interpretation of an old book?

 

[Elendur]

Eternal death.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

It does me too, but the only reason the dead is being judged for their works -- (and not their faith) -- is to show them where in Hell they are going to spend eternity.

I'm sorry, but to me you're contradicting yourself.

Spend eternity in hell.
Spend eternity in heaven.

Isn't that both life? Even though one is in bliss and one in torment?

And you've said eternal death.

Can you define death for me? Or life in heaven and explain how that is different from life in hell? Preferably both.

 

[AV1611VET]

I'm sorry, but to me you're contradicting yourself.

Do you understand this verse?

Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

 

[Elendur]

Do you understand this verse?

Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

I don't know if I understand it.
But if I were to interpret it I would say that Jesus wants people to follow him (believe in him) and those who don't are dead him and god and will be left to tend to themselves.

But what about hell?

I'm willing to admit that I'm wrong about you contradicting yourself if you define death and living for me in a satisfying way.

 

[AV1611VET]

I'm willing to admit that I'm wrong about you contradicting yourself if you define death and living for me in a satisfying way.

I probably can't define 'death' to suit anyone, as it has been hijacked by science and now carries technobaggage; but if I had to guess good enough to try and satisfy a myopic whitecoat (I'm not [necessarily] talking about you), I would probably go with 'cessation of telomeres,' or some such technoguess.

Eternal death, on the other hand, is another matter.

Known as 'the second death', it is life apart from Jesus Christ in the Lake of Fire.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

We have a way of putting it, that associates the terms 'born again' and 'second death':

Born once, die twice; born twice, die once.

Revelation 20:16 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Eternal Death = Second Death

 

[Elendur]

I probably can't define 'death' to suit anyone, as it has been hijacked by science and now carries technobaggage; but if I had to guess good enough to try and satisfy a myopic whitecoat (I'm not [necessarily] talking about you), I would probably go with 'cessation of telomeres,' or some such technoguess.

Eternal death, on the other hand, is another matter.

Known as 'the second death', it is life apart from Jesus Christ in the Lake of Fire.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

We have a way of putting it, that associates the terms 'born again' and 'second death':

Born once, die twice; born twice, die once.

Revelation 20:16 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Eternal Death = Second Death

Ok, so simplified the second death is what can be called hell?
Or did I misunderstand the text?
Would you still be you? Would you still think while being burning?

I'm not asking this because of an ulterior motive or something like that, I'm just curious.

 

[AV1611VET]

Ok, so simplified the second death is what can be called hell?

Hell and the Lake of Fire.

Or did I misunderstand the text?

You got it --

Would you still be you? Would you still think while being burning?

Yes -- according to the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16.

In tripartitism -- (a Biblical doctrine of the makeup of man) -- the soul consists of the mind, the will and the emotions; and the body receives input from the empirical senses.

Thus, both body and soul are reunited and cast into Hell.

That is why the rich man was both thirsty (body) and repentive (soul).

This then begs the question: What keeps him from burning up?

To which the following passage applies; speaking of Hell, Jesus says:

Mark 9:49a For every one shall be salted with fire,

Salt preserves flesh, and this is Jesus' way of saying man will be preserved in the fires of Hell.

That truly is a place to be avoided, and [faith in] Jesus is the only Way to avoid it.

I'm not asking this because of an ulterior motive or something like that, I'm just curious.

I believe you --

 

[Elendur]

Hell and the Lake of Fire.

You got it --

Yes -- according to the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16.

In tripartitism -- (a Biblical doctrine of the makeup of man) -- the soul consists of the mind, the will and the emotions; and the body receives input from the empirical senses.

Thus, both body and soul are reunited and cast into Hell.

That is why the rich man was both thirsty (body) and repentive (soul).

This then begs the question: What keeps him from burning up?

To which the following passage applies; speaking of Hell, Jesus says:

Mark 9:49a For every one shall be salted with fire,

Salt preserves flesh, and this is Jesus' way of saying man will be preserved in the fires of Hell.

That truly is a place to be avoided, and [faith in] Jesus is the only Way to avoid it.

I believe you --

Thank you for taking the time to explain now I know a little more than yesterday.
Thanks again