Harmless Porn

[Oneofthediaspora]

Wait, I'm still confused. Is your position that rape is dramatically worse than slavery in a really special way that goes into a special category? Because I'm not sure I agree with that.

So you're not going to answer that question either then?

Let me rephrase to avoid confusion and leave the answer as a simple yes or no.

Is it ever right to use any form of coercion to make a person(s) perform a sex act that they would prefer not to perform for your gratification?

 

[The Nihilist]

So you're not going to answer that question either then?

Let me rephrase to avoid confusion and leave the answer as a simple yes or no.

Is it ever right to use any form of coercion to make a person(s) perform a sex act that they would prefer not to perform for your gratification?

I have a degree in philosophy. I excel at not answering questions.
I agree that it is wrong to coerce someone to have sex. However, I also think slavery is wrong. But if working in exchange for pay is different from slavery, then having sex in exchange for pay is different from coerced sex, which I think we agree is also called rape.

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

But if working in exchange for pay is different from slavery, then having sex in exchange for pay is different from coerced sex,

Leaving aside the fact that you are probably aware of the term and concept of "wage-slave", most people see cleaning toilets as different from having sex because of the emotional and psychological baggage carried with the sex act. Hence the special category in which people place sex and their recoiling from the idea of coercing someone to perform sex acts for them against their will.
This repugnance gets lost with porn because it is marketed well and the viewer does not have to hand the money directly to the performer when you finish rubbing one out.

If you are differing from the majority who feel that sex is an emotionally and psychologically different thing then the onus lies with you to explain why.

 

[LittleNipper]

What if they're married? What if it's porn that you and your wife made?

I have to believe that where sex is about respect for the other individual, it cannot be pornographic. And respect needs to begin with commitment. Commitment is not what pornography is about. Satisfaction is what pornography is about.

 

[The Nihilist]

I have to believe that where sex is about respect for the other individual, it cannot be pornographic. And respect needs to begin with commitment. Commitment is not what pornography is about. Satisfaction is what pornography is about.

Saying that sex is about respect is like saying that a book is about words. Respect plays a part, but if satisfaction weren't in play, you might as well cuddle.
So, what if you and your wife video tape some intercourse? Is it immoral if you watch it later and touch? Or is that fine?

 

[The Nihilist]

Leaving aside the fact that you are probably aware of the term and concept of "wage-slave", most people see cleaning toilets as different from having sex because of the emotional and psychological baggage carried with the sex act. Hence the special category in which people place sex and their recoiling from the idea of coercing someone to perform sex acts for them against their will.
This repugnance gets lost with porn because it is marketed well and the viewer does not have to hand the money directly to the performer when you finish rubbing one out.

If you are differing from the majority who feel that sex is an emotionally and psychologically different thing then the onus lies with you to explain why.

Ok, so you don't think slavery is as bad as rape. Gotcha.

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

Ok, so you don't think slavery is as bad as rape. Gotcha.

So you are having difficulty justifying your position and so aren't going to bother. Gotcha.

 

[The Nihilist]

So you are having difficulty justifying your position and so aren't going to bother. Gotcha.

Your position seems to be that because sex is in a special category, then nonconsensual sex is worse than nonconsensual work. It follows from this that rape is worse than slavery. If you're fine with that, then I don't suppose anything else needs to be said on the topic.

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

Your position seems to be that because sex is in a special category, then nonconsensual sex is worse than nonconsensual work. It follows from this that rape is worse than slavery. If you're fine with that, then I don't suppose anything else needs to be said on the topic.

No, that may be the position you want me to hold because it is easier to attack.

I asked if you differ from the majority in seeing sex as having certain emotional and psychological sequelae that make most people feel that coercing someone to have sex that they do not not want for your own gratification somehow wrong.
I explained that the onus was on you to explain why the majority of people are wrong.
Are you going to provide an explanation?

 

[The Nihilist]

I don't dispute that they are wrong. But if they are right, then it follows that rape is worse than slavery. It follows because if sex has this special status and work doesn't, then making someone work, which is not special, is worse than making someone have sex, which is special. If you can live with that, then there's nothing else to be said.

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

I don't dispute that they are wrong. But if they are right, then rape is worse than slavery. If you can live with that, then there's nothing else to be said.

Nah, there's plenty more to be said when you finally deign to engage in the discussion as opposed to repeating the same sentence over again.

When you say you don't dispute that "they" are wrong, do you mean by "they" the majority of human beings or pornography?

As I have said, repeatedly, most people view sex differently to cleaning toilets inasmuch that sex is a more emotionally charged activity and there is something inherent in the act and emotions caught up with it that make most people feel it is wrong gain sexual gratification if the other partner(s) does not want to do it.
THIS is my point.

In theory most people agree; in practice when it comes to porn, most people try not to think to much about it. A situation that is enabled by the fact that most porn is marketed in a very clever way and also you don't hand the money over when you have come.

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

Let me use an example to illustrate the difference.

Working in Macdonald's. <staff edit>
When I go to Macdonalds someone serves me a burger and I give them the money. I think, "you know what, pal, you're job isn't great."

Hypothetical situation 2:
I find some people who need the money and tell them to have sex (I don't care if you don't want to, you don't get paid if you don't do the various things I tell you to) <staff edit>
After I've come and they've gone through whatever acts I have demanded to enable me to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], I hand over the money.

Their emotions and my emotions after this little transaction are very different to when I have paid the person with the McJob (TM).

See that difference there? That is what I am talking about.

 

[LittleNipper]

Saying that sex is about respect is like saying that a book is about words. Respect plays a part, but if satisfaction weren't in play, you might as well cuddle.
So, what if you and your wife video tape some intercourse? Is it immoral if you watch it later and [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]? Or is that fine?

Of course people would cuddle. Love making is not a spectator sport.

 

[Belk]

Of course people would cuddle. Love making is not a spectator sport.

It can be if you have scorecards.

 

[The Nihilist]

Of course people would cuddle. Love making is not a spectator sport.

You have missed the point. It's ok, though, you're not the only one.

 

[FlamingFemme]

Let me use an example to illustrate the difference.

Working in Macdonald's. Pretty [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] job right?
When I go to Macdonalds someone serves me a burger and I give them the money. I think, "you know what, pal, you're job isn't great."

Hypothetical situation 2:
I find some people who need the money and tell them to have sex (I don't care if you don't want to, you don't get paid if you don't do the various things I tell you to) while I have a w*nk.
After I've come and they've gone through whatever acts I have demanded to enable me to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], I hand over the money.

Their emotions and my emotions after this little transaction are very different to when I have paid the person with the McJob (TM).

See that difference there? That is what I am talking about.

Of course there is a difference between those two hypothetical situations. Situation #1 happens all the time, and doesn't involve sex. Situation #2 is not a common occurrence, and does involve sex.
Now, being serious...
The reality is, most porn stars weren't recruited, they applied. Meaning, they walked into an office, either responding to a job posting in the paper, or an ad online/tv, and actively applied to be a porn star. The issue with non-consent/coercion is a moot one. Now, I'm not saying there isn't plenty of room for exploitation in this particular industry, but the fact remains that most porn stars actively pursued their chosen trade, and they make VERY good money doing it. Since they actively pursued it, you can't call it non-consensual - even if they occasionally think 'why am I doing this?', it's still consensual, because if they wanted it to stop, they could simply get up and leave. Keeping in mind that I'm referring to most porn actors/actresses, as well as reputable (it's all relative) production companies.

 

[lux et lex]

Wait...where does Jesus say this...or are you saying it for Jesus...

have you ever read the Gospels?

Yes, I have. Several times. Why do you ask?

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

Of course there is a difference between those two hypothetical situations. Situation #1 happens all the time, and doesn't involve sex. Situation #2 is not a common occurrence, and does involve sex.
Now, being serious...
The reality is, most porn stars weren't recruited, they applied. Meaning, they walked into an office, either responding to a job posting in the paper, or an ad online/tv, and actively applied to be a porn star. The issue with non-consent/coercion is a moot one. Now, I'm not saying there isn't plenty of room for exploitation in this particular industry, but the fact remains that most porn stars actively pursued their chosen trade, and they make VERY good money doing it. Since they actively pursued it, you can't call it non-consensual - even if they occasionally think 'why am I doing this?', it's still consensual, because if they wanted it to stop, they could simply get up and leave. Keeping in mind that I'm referring to most porn actors/actresses, as well as reputable (it's all relative) production companies.

You miss my point completely.

Which is ... Most people (but not all) baulk at the idea of people performing sexual acts that they do not want to for the gratification of someone else.
The people in my "hypothetical situation #2" have a choice. Their choice is heavily influenced by how much they or their dependents need the money and how unskilled/poorly educated etc they are.

Ahh, I hear you say, just like the fella who cleans the bogs in KFC.
Well, no actually. Similar, but not the same as illustrated by the two hypothetical situations in my previous post.

 

[S.gal83]

Jesus equates watching porn with committing adultery. Adultery is breaking one of God's commands. Adulterers will not see the kingdom of heaven.

That's why Christians make a fuss.

Where, in the bible, does Jesus equate porn, with adultery?

 

[Belk]

Where, in the bible, does Jesus equate porn, with adultery?

I believe that would be the "Lust in your heart" section. Where if you have ever looked at a woman with lust you have committed adultery in your mind.