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Zico
Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen
- Jun 24, 2002
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First we have to ask this concrete question, Was Muhammad predicted in the old books or not ??
the Bible and Torah both contain prophecies of things that have past and things that shall come to pass, please dont tell me that such books of God dont have any thing to say about a man who led some 1.25 bn. people to believe in such a terrible lie for more than 1425 yrs.
You dont have any ground to stand on.
http://www.sharif.org.uk/lecture.htm
http://www.sharif.org.uk/successor.htm
the Bible and Torah both contain prophecies of things that have past and things that shall come to pass, please dont tell me that such books of God dont have any thing to say about a man who led some 1.25 bn. people to believe in such a terrible lie for more than 1425 yrs.
You dont have any ground to stand on.
http://www.sharif.org.uk/lecture.htm
http://www.sharif.org.uk/successor.htm
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I cant believe you got something from Ahmed deedat
this guy is horrible in defending Islam- he'll most definetly have an impressin on the unlearned but nothing on the learned.
I'll respond in a little
this guy is horrible in defending Islam- he'll most definetly have an impressin on the unlearned but nothing on the learned.
I'll respond in a little
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and sure, the bible has many things to say about Mohammad,
one that he is a liar, he is a weed amoung the wheat, he is a flase prophet, a deciever, one that preaches another gospel different from the ONE Gospel, one that soeaks of another god though his words may seem convicing is worthy to be put to death.
He contradicts Torah and the prophets and the writtings and the Besurat ha'Geulah
He stands against Moses(Torah) amd Messiah (Grace)
and he is just as bad as these Pseudo-christians
If you can prove to me by using Qur-an and aHadith's that he UPHELD the ENTIRE TORAH and didnt do away with any part of it, I might believe that he was an apostle.
But you cannot, because he taught a "replacement" religion that the Psedo christians from the 4th century (3 centuries before mohammad) taught.
Islam is only another pseudo-christianity and pseudo- judaism that does away with the truth as does pseudo-christianity.
Prove to me how islam is THE SAME/EXACT COPY of the BIBLICAL JUDAISM, from sacrifices, to sabbath, to Messiah, to the character of Hashem and THE SAME ETERNAL TORAH BEING FROM THE BEGINNING!!!
you cant
But it is however, the exact opposite!
IN NT, even from the manuscripts dating back to the 2nd century (the 100s-not long after the completion of the books) it says that The Anti-Messiah, which is born possibly now, will come first, with a prophet, and the anti-messiah will blaspheme THE TORAH who is GD- saying that he himself, the anti-messiah , is GD when he does not adhere to Torah who is GD.
So here is anti-messiah and his prophet, and he will fight against Israel.
And then the Messiah Arrives to do away with the anti-messiah and his prophet.
However Islam says
The Messiah comes praying behind the Mahdi,which many moslems believe he is already born now, and he will unite all arab nations to fight against Israel.
and then here comes the anti-christ to stand against the Messiah named Isa(which his name should PROPERLY be IESUA in arabic) .
So heres the thing, My anti-Messiah and false prophet is Your real messiah and mahdi.
and our TRUE MESSIAH is your anti-christ.
So in other words, your Qur'an names the True Messiah the anti-messiah
and calls Our Anti-Messiah and prophet, the real messiah and prophet.
can you see the similarities??
We believe that the anti-messiah is born now, and you(moslems) believe the Mahdi is born now.
NOTICE that they will both fight against Israel!
And we have manuscripts predating Mohammad and Islam by 600 yrs that testify that what the BIBLE says is correct.
You have no standing
one that he is a liar, he is a weed amoung the wheat, he is a flase prophet, a deciever, one that preaches another gospel different from the ONE Gospel, one that soeaks of another god though his words may seem convicing is worthy to be put to death.
He contradicts Torah and the prophets and the writtings and the Besurat ha'Geulah
He stands against Moses(Torah) amd Messiah (Grace)
and he is just as bad as these Pseudo-christians
If you can prove to me by using Qur-an and aHadith's that he UPHELD the ENTIRE TORAH and didnt do away with any part of it, I might believe that he was an apostle.
But you cannot, because he taught a "replacement" religion that the Psedo christians from the 4th century (3 centuries before mohammad) taught.
Islam is only another pseudo-christianity and pseudo- judaism that does away with the truth as does pseudo-christianity.
Prove to me how islam is THE SAME/EXACT COPY of the BIBLICAL JUDAISM, from sacrifices, to sabbath, to Messiah, to the character of Hashem and THE SAME ETERNAL TORAH BEING FROM THE BEGINNING!!!
you cant
But it is however, the exact opposite!
IN NT, even from the manuscripts dating back to the 2nd century (the 100s-not long after the completion of the books) it says that The Anti-Messiah, which is born possibly now, will come first, with a prophet, and the anti-messiah will blaspheme THE TORAH who is GD- saying that he himself, the anti-messiah , is GD when he does not adhere to Torah who is GD.
So here is anti-messiah and his prophet, and he will fight against Israel.
And then the Messiah Arrives to do away with the anti-messiah and his prophet.
However Islam says
The Messiah comes praying behind the Mahdi,which many moslems believe he is already born now, and he will unite all arab nations to fight against Israel.
and then here comes the anti-christ to stand against the Messiah named Isa(which his name should PROPERLY be IESUA in arabic) .
So heres the thing, My anti-Messiah and false prophet is Your real messiah and mahdi.
and our TRUE MESSIAH is your anti-christ.
So in other words, your Qur'an names the True Messiah the anti-messiah
and calls Our Anti-Messiah and prophet, the real messiah and prophet.
can you see the similarities??
We believe that the anti-messiah is born now, and you(moslems) believe the Mahdi is born now.
NOTICE that they will both fight against Israel!
And we have manuscripts predating Mohammad and Islam by 600 yrs that testify that what the BIBLE says is correct.
You have no standing
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oh yes, and start from anywhere in proving that the Qur'an is from GD
Notice the Newtestament DOES NOT IN ANY WAY DO AWAY with ANYTHING in the Old testament.
The rules are the same, its just a newcovenant that was needed because of the fault GD found n the Old covenant.
What was the fault?
Humans, that could not keep their promise!
What was the new covenant?
A promise Gd made to himself!! And Gd cannot Break His word!
Zico, you are not dealing with the "christians" you have always dealt with.
You are dealing with One the KNOWS the truth (not entirely ofcourse) of Hashem, and it is His TORAH and Hessed(grace) which are both eternal and from the beginning of creation! GD cannot be done away with- Neither can every word that proceeds from His mouth!
And Islam does away with MANY words that proceed oput of his mouth!
Notice the Newtestament DOES NOT IN ANY WAY DO AWAY with ANYTHING in the Old testament.
The rules are the same, its just a newcovenant that was needed because of the fault GD found n the Old covenant.
What was the fault?
Humans, that could not keep their promise!
What was the new covenant?
A promise Gd made to himself!! And Gd cannot Break His word!
Zico, you are not dealing with the "christians" you have always dealt with.
You are dealing with One the KNOWS the truth (not entirely ofcourse) of Hashem, and it is His TORAH and Hessed(grace) which are both eternal and from the beginning of creation! GD cannot be done away with- Neither can every word that proceeds from His mouth!
And Islam does away with MANY words that proceed oput of his mouth!
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Aradia
Regular Member
sojeru: If the NT does not do away with anything from the OT, then I suppose all christians follow kosher law. Pork, beard, the whole nine yards. Oh, wait, they don't.
Neither of you have proof that your religious books are from god, so quit acting like 5 year olds arguing about who's dad is cooler.
"To you be your Way, and to me mine.
Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion." -- Qur'an, Surah 109.6
"Love thy neighbour" -- Bible, pretty much everywhere
Neither of you have proof that your religious books are from god, so quit acting like 5 year olds arguing about who's dad is cooler.
"To you be your Way, and to me mine.
Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion." -- Qur'an, Surah 109.6
"Love thy neighbour" -- Bible, pretty much everywhere
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- Mar 25, 2003
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Aradia,
This is a forum about Open Discussion & Debate as stated in the title. Sojeru and Zico are doing just that, debating their stance on the Qur'an. Your post offers nothing to this thread. I fail to see why you even posted here if your view is that neither is correct and neither is wrong. I for one am interested in the views of both Sojeru and Zico on this subject.
This is a forum about Open Discussion & Debate as stated in the title. Sojeru and Zico are doing just that, debating their stance on the Qur'an. Your post offers nothing to this thread. I fail to see why you even posted here if your view is that neither is correct and neither is wrong. I for one am interested in the views of both Sojeru and Zico on this subject.
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Ah, so Aradia's opinion in an open discussion and debate forum is not wanted/relevant? If two people are debating, and another feels that both sides are wrong, why is that person not afforded the right to post his/her stance? I'm interested in the subject, too. But I would like to hear from every side.
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Aradia
Regular Member
Thank you, no gods.
Tawhano, my point is that they aren't debating. At least, sojeru isn't. He's attacking with no logical foundation. And I quote:
"and sure, the bible has many things to say about Mohammad, one that he is a liar"
Yeah. Because the bible mentions Muhammad by name? Don't think so. This isn't debating. This is petty bickering.
Tawhano, my point is that they aren't debating. At least, sojeru isn't. He's attacking with no logical foundation. And I quote:
"and sure, the bible has many things to say about Mohammad, one that he is a liar"
Yeah. Because the bible mentions Muhammad by name? Don't think so. This isn't debating. This is petty bickering.
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Good point No gods. I looked at Aradias post as being an attack on Sojeru and Zico because they were debating on something that Aradia believes they have no right to debate on, as per her comment:
However you are correct, Aradia has as much right to voice their opinion as anybody else even if their opinion is that Sojeru and Zico have no right to voice their opinion.
I stand corrected and retract my statement
However you are correct, Aradia has as much right to voice their opinion as anybody else even if their opinion is that Sojeru and Zico have no right to voice their opinion.
I stand corrected and retract my statement
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Hi aradia,
you said:
sojeru: If the NT does not do away with anything from the OT, then I suppose all christians follow kosher law. Pork, beard, the whole nine yards. Oh, wait, they don't.
---------------------------
you obviously havent read any of ALL of my posts well.
These "christians" that you speak of are not christians, they are liars, and many of them do not know it- they ned to be taught how their bible is ONE and cannot go against itself.
THERE are however, a few people that DO fulfill the kosher requirements and etc.
So you are in the wrong aradia
you shouldnt debate in this one if you dont know what the author of this thread or what any one else here MEANS.
just sit back and read and listen for a little ok?
then put your money on the table
you said:
sojeru: If the NT does not do away with anything from the OT, then I suppose all christians follow kosher law. Pork, beard, the whole nine yards. Oh, wait, they don't.
---------------------------
you obviously havent read any of ALL of my posts well.
These "christians" that you speak of are not christians, they are liars, and many of them do not know it- they ned to be taught how their bible is ONE and cannot go against itself.
THERE are however, a few people that DO fulfill the kosher requirements and etc.
So you are in the wrong aradia
you shouldnt debate in this one if you dont know what the author of this thread or what any one else here MEANS.
just sit back and read and listen for a little ok?
then put your money on the table
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and Hi ALL here,
Indeed, I am "attacking" Zico,
So no need for anyone to defend me, but this is a debate.
Thing is, I want Zico to dish out everything that he has.
Im sure that Zico, while reading this will want to.
I know that ALL moslems have knowledge of Pseudo-christianity and base all their defences against it- but not the word /BILE itself, however they pick and choose what they want out of it. Same as "christians" ( and i use the quotations to mean PSEUDO christians NOT TRUE christians)
Most of all Christendom is Pseduoand the "jews" errect their defences against this as do moslems.
Im here to present to Zico the Truth of the book, One that can be debated- but not disproven.
I do not claim to have complete knowledge of it, but i have a sufficient knowledge of the basics that are vital to TRUE Christendom. And the weakest of the Truth can over come the strongest of lies-
This is where i stand, now let me and Zico try and finish discussing on this thread.
Indeed, I am "attacking" Zico,
So no need for anyone to defend me, but this is a debate.
Thing is, I want Zico to dish out everything that he has.
Im sure that Zico, while reading this will want to.
I know that ALL moslems have knowledge of Pseudo-christianity and base all their defences against it- but not the word /BILE itself, however they pick and choose what they want out of it. Same as "christians" ( and i use the quotations to mean PSEUDO christians NOT TRUE christians)
Most of all Christendom is Pseduoand the "jews" errect their defences against this as do moslems.
Im here to present to Zico the Truth of the book, One that can be debated- but not disproven.
I do not claim to have complete knowledge of it, but i have a sufficient knowledge of the basics that are vital to TRUE Christendom. And the weakest of the Truth can over come the strongest of lies-
This is where i stand, now let me and Zico try and finish discussing on this thread.
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Aradia
Regular Member
Sit back and read? Why? To help me go to sleep? Neither of you will say anything that I don't already know or haven't already heard. I'd be mighty surprised if you did.
And how can you talk about gentile christians when you're jewish? A billion people can't be wrong, can they? Oh, wait... they can. =) Of course, Paul is the supposed author of half the books in the NT, so much of the NT is tainted with gentile blood anyway. Paul certainly didn't feel much need to follow strict kosher law. Yeshua would be turning in his grave.
And how can you talk about gentile christians when you're jewish? A billion people can't be wrong, can they? Oh, wait... they can. =) Of course, Paul is the supposed author of half the books in the NT, so much of the NT is tainted with gentile blood anyway. Paul certainly didn't feel much need to follow strict kosher law. Yeshua would be turning in his grave.
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aradia, thing is, you understand paul from a tainted gentile perspective. what is that perspective? one that twists the words of Paul to fit a paganist gentile view. which means you dont understand Paulos at all
I understand Paul in what he said. Paul never broke Kosher laws nor did he teach ANY of the believers to do so.
Neither did he teach this to gentiles.
And i know of which scriptures are mis interpreted by these pagan gentiles since the beginning of the 3rd century.
why wont you stand for your belief in that Paul was a hellenist using scripture and I will show you how he did not using the entire scripture and Jewish thought(talmud).
And I was one growing up in a secular home- I was not indoctrinated- so I grew up as gentile are reared. However, by me searching out Messiah's word i now hold on to truth, and am worthy to be called a hebrew of hebrews.
I am orthodox and plan to remain so- and until it is time to tell the rest of the unbelieving orthodox jews that will probably kill me, i will study more in orthodoxy and be revealed more of that truth which is in the UNIVERSE(ONE WORD), the ONE DOCTRINE, the ONE GD, ONE MESSIAH, ONE SPIRIT, ONE WAY(TORAH).
Becuase I am part of THE ONE BODY, ONE ASSEMBLY(church,congregation, community)
, thing is, you understand paul from a tainted gentile perspective. what is that perspective? one that twists the words of Paul to fit a paganist gentile view. which means you dont understand Paulos at allI understand Paul in what he said. Paul never broke Kosher laws nor did he teach ANY of the believers to do so.
Neither did he teach this to gentiles.
And i know of which scriptures are mis interpreted by these pagan gentiles since the beginning of the 3rd century.
why wont you stand for your belief in that Paul was a hellenist using scripture and I will show you how he did not using the entire scripture and Jewish thought(talmud).
And I was one growing up in a secular home- I was not indoctrinated- so I grew up as gentile are reared. However, by me searching out Messiah's word i now hold on to truth, and am worthy to be called a hebrew of hebrews.
I am orthodox and plan to remain so- and until it is time to tell the rest of the unbelieving orthodox jews that will probably kill me, i will study more in orthodoxy and be revealed more of that truth which is in the UNIVERSE(ONE WORD), the ONE DOCTRINE, the ONE GD, ONE MESSIAH, ONE SPIRIT, ONE WAY(TORAH).
Becuase I am part of THE ONE BODY, ONE ASSEMBLY(church,congregation, community)
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