Halal Explained

[WoodrowX2]

In wn123455's link, I don't see a clear statement of exactly how those words got to be on paper. I assume it is not said to be the same way the Ten Commandments got on stone, so how did it get there? I have an idea that Mohammad received his understanding from speaking with an angel, is it this understanding that was conveyed to a scribe? Was it dictated or was the scribe recording what Mohammad had conveyed? And was Mohammad stating the exact same words that the angel had given him, or was he explaining what he understood of what the angel had said?

Muhammad(saws) was stating exactly what Gabrial dictated, ad verbatim, the exact words.

Muhammad(saws)'s understanding, explanations and commentary of what was revealed is found in the Ahadith.

A bit of tidbit. It is impossible to make an original sentence using Qur'anic Arabic. It is not a spoken form, yet it is understood by every Arabic speaker, no matter what Arabic dialect they speak. So far no one has been able to construct as much as one original sentence using Qur'anic Arabic.

A Hafiz (a person who has memorized the Qur'an) is able to immediately tell if a person mispronounces as much as one letter. If a single letter is Mispronunced in a Surah, the remainder of the Surah will be out of "Tune" from that point forward.

As Arabic had only recently become a written language, the practice of memorization was the primary method of preservation and is still considered to be the way we should learn the Qur'an.

There were scribes that did make written note of the things Muhammad(saws) recited as each revelation was given. However, there was no standard script for Arabic and the letters varied in shape from scribe to scribe. The primary preservation was the Hafiz, those who memorized it.

Uthman eventually collected all the notes from the scribes, that had been saved and passed down. These in turn were verified by the Hafiz for accuracy and Uthman established the first standard script for Arabic writing and the Qur'an was finally put in book form. However as punctuation marks would not be developed for several more generations, the Hafiz remained the primary source of preservation.

Even today the recitations of the hafiz are still the source of verification of the written Qur'an. Sadly with each year less people become Hafiz I think presently only about 25% of the World's Muslims are Hafiz. Not long ago virtually ever adult male was Hafiz and many perhaps most adult women.

 

[oi_antz]

Muhammad(saws) was stating exactly what Gabrial dictated, ad verbatim, the exact words.

Muhammad(saws)'s understanding, explanations and commentary of what was revealed is found in the Ahadith.

A bit of tidbit. It is impossible to make an original sentence using Qur'anic Arabic. It is not a spoken form, yet it is understood by every Arabic speaker, no matter what Arabic dialect they speak. So far no one has been able to construct as much as one original sentence using Qur'anic Arabic.

A Hafiz (a person who has memorized the Qur'an) is able to immediately tell if a person mispronounces as much as one letter. If a single letter is Mispronunced in a Surah, the remainder of the Surah will be out of "Tune" from that point forward.

As Arabic had only recently become a written language, the practice of memorization was the primary method of preservation and is still considered to be the way we should learn the Qur'an.

There were scribes that did make written note of the things Muhammad(saws) recited as each revelation was given. However, there was no standard script for Arabic and the letters varied in shape from scribe to scribe. The primary preservation was the Hafiz, those who memorized it.

Uthman eventually collected all the notes from the scribes, that had been saved and passed down. These in turn were verified by the Hafiz for accuracy and Uthman established the first standard script for Arabic writing and the Qur'an was finally put in book form. However as punctuation marks would not be developed for several more generations, the Hafiz remained the primary source of preservation.

Even today the recitations of the hafiz are still the source of verification of the written Qur'an. Sadly with each year less people become Hafiz I think presently only about 25% of the World's Muslims are Hafiz. Not long ago virtually ever adult male was Hafiz and many perhaps most adult women.

Thanks for this thorough explanation. In the Surah 5 passage you quoted, the speaker says "on which Allah's Name has not been mentioned while slaughtering", which indicates that Allah is someone other than the person who is speaking, but further on he says "so fear them not, but fear Me", which indicates that the speaker is referring to himself being a different person than Allah. Am I correct to assume that the proper context of this verse is Mohammad giving his instruction to someone, or is there another explanation for this?

 

[smaneck]

Thanks for this thorough explanation. In the Surah 5 passage you quoted, the speaker says "on which Allah's Name has not been mentioned while slaughtering", which indicates that Allah is someone other than the person who is speaking, but further on he says "so fear them not, but fear Me", which indicates that the speaker is referring to himself being a different person than Allah. Am I correct to assume that the proper context of this verse is Mohammad giving his instruction to someone, or is there another explanation for this?

It would not be unusual in antiquity for someone of high status to refer to themselves in various ways, whether first person, third person, second person singular or plural. I think you'll find numerous places where this occurs in the Tanakh as well.

 

[oi_antz]

It would not be unusual in antiquity for someone of high status to refer to themselves in various ways, whether first person, third person, second person singular or plural. I think you'll find numerous places where this occurs in the Tanakh as well.

Do you mean that Allah has referred to himself as Allah as the third person in this case?

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Three Euros a Kilo? The last time I bought chicken I paid 49 cents a pound! However, I buy legs and thighs, not breasts.

I'm pretty sure our excess thighs go to Russia, or at least they did before Crimea.

The last time I bought chicken, it was from a local farmer involved in several initiatives to better the lot of farm animals. It was a whole chicken, and it cost 25 Euros (approximately 30 dollars, I think).

And it was worth every cent, not only because of ethical concerns, but also because it was easily the best poultry I had ever eaten. Considering that it provided us with three full meals (roast chicken on the first day, chicken salad the second time around, and chicken fricassee on the third occassion), it wasn't even spectacularly expensive. Even if we take energy costs into account, it was still cheaper than eating out at a restaurant.

 

[WoodrowX2]

Thanks for this thorough explanation. In the Surah 5 passage you quoted, the speaker says "on which Allah's Name has not been mentioned while slaughtering", which indicates that Allah is someone other than the person who is speaking, but further on he says "so fear them not, but fear Me", which indicates that the speaker is referring to himself being a different person than Allah. Am I correct to assume that the proper context of this verse is Mohammad giving his instruction to someone, or is there another explanation for this?

The explanation is it is a translation.

Arabic is very difficult to translate.Word for word translations don't work. One has to know how an Arab speaker understands it and try to express that in English.There is no actual word for Me in Arabic. The possessive is indicated by either naming your self or to use the suffix i or ee

In Arabic (I'll use a Transliteration rather than the Arabic characters) the ayyat reads:

Ĥurrimat `Alaykumu Al-Maytatu Wa Ad-Damu Wa Laĥmu Al-Khinzīri Wa Mā 'Uhilla Lighayri Al-Lahi Bihi Wa Al-Munkhaniqatu Wa Al-Mawqūdhatu Wa Al-Mutaraddiyatu Wa An-Naţīĥatu Wa Mā 'Akala As-Sabu`u 'Illā Mā Dhakkaytum Wa Mā Dhubiĥa `Alá An-Nuşubi Wa 'An Tastaqsimū Bil-'Azlāmi ۚ Dhālikum Fisqun ۗ Al-Yawma Ya'isa Al-Ladhīna Kafarū Min Dīnikum Falā Takhshawhum Wa Akhshawnī ۚ Al-Yawma 'Akmaltu Lakum Dīnakum Wa 'Atmamtu `Alaykum Ni`matī Wa Rađītu Lakumu Al-'Islāma Dīnāan ۚ Famani Ađţurra Fī Makhmaşatin Ghayra Mutajānifin L'ithmin ۙ Fa'inna Al-Laha Ghafūrun Raĥīmun

SOURCE for the transliteration

The words " Wa Mā 'Akala As-Sabu`u 'Illā " which is often translated as "on which Allah's Name" However notice the Word Allah is not there, nor is the name Allah used anyplace in the ayyat

Instead we have Illa Which means God more specifically your god. A literal word for word translation is "and not said upon,, your god" what is given in most translations is the understood meaning as understood by the people being: that upon slaughtering The name of your god is to be spoken.

For the other part of your post:

Al-Yawma Ya'isa Al-Ladhīna Kafarū Min Dīnikum Falā Takhshawhum Wa Akhshawnī

is what is translated as

"This day, those who disbelieved given up all hope of your religion, so fear them not, but fear Me."

There is no exact English words for most of that.

So I will begin backwards with the word Akshawni, which designated by the suffix i is something belonging to the source of the Ayyat (Allah) While akhsha is translated as fear, it is much deeper and carries with it the concept of worship to a diety. A concept of divine fear reserved only for God(swt)


Trying a word for word interpretation:

Al-Yawma= This day

Ya'isa Al-Ladhīna==They, those, others

Kafarū ==committed the act of not believing

Min Dīnikum Fa==will not your religion have

La makes a phrase negative there not to Takhshawhum

lā Takhshawhum==You will not akshaw them T designates you
hum designates them

wa==and

Akhshawnī==Akshaw belongs to me

 

[oi_antz]

The explanation is it is a translation.

Arabic is very difficult to translate.Word for word translations don't work. One has to know how an Arab speaker understands it and try to express that in English.There is no actual word for Me in Arabic. The possessive is indicated by either naming your self or to use the suffix i or ee

In Arabic (I'll use a Transliteration rather than the Arabic characters) the ayyat reads:

SOURCE for the transliteration

The words " Wa Mā 'Akala As-Sabu`u 'Illā " which is often translated as "on which Allah's Name" However notice the Word Allah is not there, nor is the name Allah used anyplace in the ayyat

Instead we have Illa Which means God more specifically your god. A literal word for word translation is "and not said upon,, your god" what is given in most translations is the understood meaning as understood by the people being: that upon slaughtering The name of your god is to be spoken.

For the other part of your post:

Al-Yawma Ya'isa Al-Ladhīna Kafarū Min Dīnikum Falā Takhshawhum Wa Akhshawnī

is what is translated as

"This day, those who disbelieved given up all hope of your religion, so fear them not, but fear Me."

There is no exact English words for most of that.

So I will begin backwards with the word Akshawni, which designated by the suffix i is something belonging to the source of the Ayyat (Allah) While akhsha is translated as fear, it is much deeper and carries with it the concept of worship to a diety. A concept of divine fear reserved only for God(swt)


Trying a word for word interpretation:

Al-Yawma= This day

Ya'isa Al-Ladhīna==They, those, others

Kafarū ==committed the act of not believing

Min Dīnikum Fa==will not your religion have

La makes a phrase negative there not to Takhshawhum

lā Takhshawhum==You will not akshaw them T designates you
hum designates them

wa==and

Akhshawnī==Akshaw belongs to me

Ahh, that translation makes much better sense, thank you! Then am I correct to assume that it is understood Mohammad was saying the exact same words that he had memorized from what the angel had told him, which the angel had presumably been instructed by Allah to say?

 

[smaneck]

The last time I bought chicken, it was from a local farmer involved in several initiatives to better the lot of farm animals. It was a whole chicken, and it cost 25 Euros (approximately 30 dollars, I think).

Ouch. You can buy it fully roasted here for less than $5 at Sam's Club, and its a really big chicken. $25 for a chicken might make a vegetarian out of me yet.

Even if we take energy costs into account, it was still cheaper than eating out at a restaurant.

Restaurants here are a lot less expensive too, especially fast food.

 

[WoodrowX2]

Ahh, that translation makes much better sense, thank you! Then am I correct to assume that it is understood Mohammad was saying the exact same words that he had memorized from what the angel had told him, which the angel had presumably been instructed by Allah to say?

Only a few surat were revealed in the cave. Actually I can not think of any. That is where he got the revelation he was to be a prophet. Much of what was said in the cave is related in the ahadith not the Qur'an

Most of the Surat were revealed in different places, sometimes as he was speaking.

From a good source as to how the Qur'an was compiled

RECORDING OF THE QUR’AN
The revelations were recorded contemporaneously by
one of the scribes appointed by the
Prophet for this purpose. After every revelation,
the Prophet would come out to the public
(unless he was already outside) and recite to the p
eople the new verses. He would also instruct
one of the scribes to write it down. According to
authentic Hadith literature, he would tell them
where the new revelation was to be positioned in re
lationship to previous revelations. He would
tell the Surah where the new revelation would go an
d the preceding and succeeding Ayahs. The
scribes would write on what ever material was avail
able at the moment. Thus the writing
medium ranged from a stone, the leaf of a palm tree
, shoulder-bone of a camel, the membrane on
the inside of a deer-skin, a parchment or a papyrus
. These writings were stored in a corner of the
Prophet’s room and later, perhaps, in a separate ro
om or office near the Prophet’s room.
It should be mentioned that while Al Qur’an means
a recitation, it also calls itself “The Book”.
The root word for book, k-t-b, occurs in the Qur’an
more than 300 times. The word and concept
of Surah is also in the Qur’an; and so is the word
Ayah.
The Makkans, being a merchant society, had a large
pool of those who could read and write.
There were as many as 11 scribes during the early p
art of the Madinan period also. The most
prominent of these was an elderly gentleman, named
Ubayy ibn Ka`b. The Prophet was then
introduced to an energetic teenager named Zayd ibn
Thabit. He was eager to learn and was
placed directly under the Prophet’s supervision. A
fter he had accomplished his initial
assignments in record time, the Prophet made him in
charge of the Qur’anic record. Zayd
became the principal scribe, organizer, and keeper
of the record.
Hundreds of people memorized the Qur’an and many w
rote what they learned. But keeping up
with the new revelations and the changing arrangeme
nt of the Ayahs in the Surahs was not
possible except for a few. To keep up, hundreds re
gularly reviewed the Qur’an they knew.
Many did this under the Prophet’s own guidance. Ot
hers did it under the supervision of teachers
designated by the Prophet. Those from remote areas
, who had visited once, or occasionally, may
not have kept up. Some, who wrote what they had le
arned, may not have inserted the new
revelations in the manner prescribed by the Prophet
.
The Prophet was meticulous about the integrity of
the Qur’an. He constantly recited, in public,
the Surahs as they were arranged at the time. It i
s reported that angel Gabriel reviewed entire
Qur’an with the Prophet once a year during the mont
h of Ramadan. This review was done twice
during the last year of the Prophet’s life. And Za
yd maintained the records faithfully, kept them
properly indexed, and made sure they were complete
according to Prophet’s instructions.

SOURCE

The first revelation were mostly instruction to Muhammad(saws) and are not mentioned in the Qur'an. It took him awhile The First person to recognize him as a Prophet was a Christian Monk (it is not certain if he was Orthodox or Coptic.)

A study of the hows, wheres and whens Muhammad(saws) received the revelations is quite lengthy. I am still a newbie in studying this aspect of Islam

 

[smaneck]

Do you mean that Allah has referred to himself as Allah as the third person in this case?

I personally don't think it makes much difference because I see the Archangel Gabriel as simply a symbol of the Holy Spirit. But I don't think many Muslims agree with me about that, although some would put it the other way, that the Holy Spirit is really the Archangel Gabriel!

 

[light upon light]

The last time I bought chicken, it was from a local farmer involved in several initiatives to better the lot of farm animals. It was a whole chicken, and it cost 25 Euros (approximately 30 dollars, I think).

That is how we buy our chicken and eggs and beef from good friends and farmer. We see them when we go to their farm to buy hay for our horses, the chickens are running around in the cows are enjoying the beautiful countryside in a pasture.

We usually have chicken breast with vegetables the first night, chicken on salad or in a burrito the second night, and chicken soup the third night. We also by our beef on the bone and make a beef soup out of it the second night. We have boycotted the factory farming system, which I agree is unethical and inhumane. He is also an organic farmer, so I am happy there is not a bunch of chemical fertilizers and pesticides being used.

 

[gord44]

That is how we buy our chicken and eggs and beef from good friends and farmer. We see them when we go to their farm to buy hay for our horses, the chickens are running around in the cows are enjoying the beautiful countryside in a pasture.

We usually have chicken breast with vegetables the first night, chicken on salad or in a burrito the second night, and chicken soup the third night. We also by our beef on the bone and make a beef soup out of it the second night. We have boycotted the factory farming system, which I agree is unethical and inhumane. He is also an organic farmer, so I am happy there is not a bunch of chemical fertilizers and pesticides being used.

I will have to look into free range chicken.

 

[wn123455]

LOL. I know of a cow that once got drunk eating a bunch of fermented apples. Might want to let it sober up before slaughtering it.



So that's where you live, Malaysia.

Do observant Muslims go to restaurants that serve alcohol there?

I do not live in malaysia. I have been there and the way the restaurants wash their dishes is not so hygienic. If you go pass the border to Singapore all the restaurants there are so much cleaner so you can go there and be sure that your dishes have not got any haram scraps on it. I can't imagine living in malaysia. I hate the smell of the durian there and the anti-semitic books in malaysian bookstores.

 

[smaneck]

I do not live in malaysia. I have been there and the way the restaurants wash their dishes is not so hygienic. If you go pass the border to Singapore all the restaurants there are so much cleaner so you can go there and be sure that your dishes have not got any haram scraps on it. I can't imagine living in malaysia. I hate the smell of the durian there and the anti-semitic books in malaysian bookstores.

Isn't durian all over SE Asia?

 

[wn123455]

Isn't durian all over SE Asia?

When I went to Singapore there was not as much durian smell as there was in malaysia. Most of the durian in Singapore were in plastic containers. In malaysia there were a lot of street stalls selling durian so the durian smell is stronger.

 

[smaneck]

the anti-semitic books in malaysian bookstores.

Tell me, were the anti-semitic books arguing that Jews were really Khazar Turks?

The Khazars | Jewish Virtual Library

 

[wn123455]

Tell me, were the anti-semitic arguing that Jews were really Khazar Turks?

The Khazars | Jewish Virtual Library

The books I saw was more of stuff like ataturk being a Jew.

 

[smaneck]

The books I saw was more of stuff like ataturk being a Jew.

LOL. See I told you, it is the Jews not the Palestinians who are Turkish.

(I hope you realize I'm kidding, LoAmmi.)

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Ouch. You can buy it fully roasted here for less than $5 at Sam's Club, and its a really big chicken. $25 for a chicken might make a vegetarian out of me yet.

Well, as I said: eating meat more than once or twice a week strikes me as irresponsible and unhealthy decadence.

There are places like that around here, too (half a chicken for 2 euros, a whole chicken for 3,50). If those were the only places where I could get poultry, I'd be a vegetarian at this point. If you can sell meat at THAT price, and yet make a profit, that tells me all sorts of bad things about the way these animals were raised and "processed". Even if I was indifferent to their fate, health concerns would still keep me from buying. (I hear they even CHLORINATE the meat over in the US... *shudder*)

Restaurants here are a lot less expensive too, especially fast food.

I refuse to call fast food places "restaurants" without using quotation marks.
British chef Jamie Oliver recently showed what McDonalds's burgers are made of: most of it is "pink slime", a concoction of ground fat, skin and offal rinsed with ammoniumhydroxide. I'd consider that hardly fit for human consumption.

 

[smaneck]

I refuse to call fast food places "restaurants" without using quotation marks.
British chef Jamie Oliver recently showed what McDonalds's burgers are made of: most of it is "pink slime", a concoction of ground fat, skin and offal rinsed with ammoniumhydroxide. I'd consider that hardly fit for human consumption.

About 15% of its content was what you call 'pink slime' (never most of it) and it was as big a problem with the lean hamburger we bought in the grocery store as it was with fast food. Ground beef with a fattier content never had it, it was used to make hamburger leaner. It got such bad publicity that most of the plants that produce it shut down. McDonad's stopped allowing any pink slime in their burgers two years ago.