Hal Lindsey Report

[LittleLambofJesus]

Convenient theology. But you fail to deal with the facts of the text and I do know the history of these events.

When you can't deal with it you dismiss it. I use to do that, but the truth is what it is.

I don't have a theology. Just living in Christ and shining my light to others.

Reve 11:11 And after the three days and half equal,a spirit of life out from/of the God came into/in them and they stand/esthsan <2476> (5627) upon the feet of them and great fear falls on upon the ones beholding them.

Reve 20:5 The rest of the dead-ones not live until should be being finished the thousand years. This the Resurrection/anastasiV <386>, the First/prwth <4413>.

Reve 18:17 `And every shipmaster, and all the one on place sailing, and sailors/mariners, and as many as the sea are working, from far they stand/esthsan <2476> (5627),

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Lets stick with the first set of scripture and then we can move on to others. Examine what I have said. Do you see how the text ties together? Most none dispensationalist see the text as AD70 but the context makes that impossible. Would you agree that the context supports this? If not way?

Hi. I don't look at ad70 but what the Scriptures themselves are symbolizing and that is a CHANGE OF PRIESTHOODS.

Matt 23:32 and ye--ye fill up the measure of your fathers. 33 `Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?

Hebrews 7:12 for the Priesthood being changed, of necessity also, of Law a change doth come,

Reve 14:11 And the Smoke of the Tormenting of Them into Ages of Ages is ascending. And not they are having rest of Day and of Night the Ones worshipping the Wild Beast, ....................

 

[holdon]

No holdon, it doesn't mean "this kind".

Yes it does. It's from "genea" same root as for "genus".

This generation means that that kind of unbelieving Israelites was still going to be around.

 

[holdon]

You truly need to read the history and happenings of the Jewish Revolts and the carnage that occured there, including earthquakes, blood moons, signs and wonders, chariots and angels in the clouds of all the cities of Judea... (all recorded by Josephus and mentioned by others.)

Ah, but no Son of Man in sight anywhere. That settles it, I think.

I personally cant' interpret each and every verse and I wont' attempt to. but I wont' say that they didn't happen in that generation, weather the generation was 40 years, or up to 100 years with the second revolt being squashed. There are a few verses vs 30,32 that could refer to the consumation of the elements at the end of he earth.

But one thing I would ask is if the people who Jesus spoke to interpreted what he said as meaning that all these things would happen to their generation....or if they would happen to some far distant generation.

No, it is that that "generation" that kind of unbelieving people, would still be around.

If they had thought they would be happening to some distant generation, they would have not fled when the Roman amies circled Jerusalem.

??? I fail to see the reasoning here.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yes it does. It's from "genea" same root as for "genus". [/color]

This generation means that that kind of unbelieving Israelites was still going to be around.

Not this kind

Matt 23:32 and ye--ye fill up the measure of your fathers. 33 `Serpents! generation/gennhmata <1081> of Vipers/ecidnwn <2191>! how may ye escape from the judgment of the geennhV ?

Ezekiel 39:12 "For seven months the house of Israel will be burying Them, in order to cleanse the land. 13 "Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says the Lord GOD

 

[thereselittleflower]

Gordon, I am going to ask you to read through this all the way before you answer and really think about what I say. Then read it again, perhaps a 3rd time.

I am going to share with you something you probably have never seen here.

Lets look at the verses under consideration carefully. [I will comment in dark black in brackets.]

15. "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
[This is the setting. We know that there have been similar events but this one is different]

16. then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
17. "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18. "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19. "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20. "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
21. "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will
.[A-millennial believers, I was one at one time, believe the 70 AD event pertains to this, but that is impossible, because Hitler for one slaughtered more Jews than were killed at that time. Also, the following events did not take place which are curtail to this great tribulation.]
22. "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
23. "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There {He is,}' do not believe {him.}
24. "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
[Please notice this carefully. At the time of this "great tribulation" these Jews are told not to look for Christ here or there. This should resonate in your thinking. Think about it, in 70 AD they hated Christ and the Jews that died were not looking for Christ. The Jews that died under Hitler, were not looking for Christ. During and at this time these are saved Jews looking for Christ.]
25. "Behold, I have told you in advance.
26. "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, {or,} 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe {them.}
27. "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
28. "Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
29. "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [ the tribulation spoken of by Daniel "those days". At the end of those days Christ returns verse 30.]
30. "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
31. "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
[At this great tribulation as it comes to a close Christ comes back. Christ did not come back in 70 AD and He did not come back at the end of WW2.]
32. "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near;
33. so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, {right} at the door.
34. "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
35. "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. ["this generation is the generation of the great tribulation, it may be our generation or the next, but it was not any generation of the past.]

Let's look at these key verses:

32. "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near;
33. so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, {right} at the door.​

I don't know what translation you are using, but this is obviously a mistranslation. It should be:

Mat 24:32 ¶ Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.
​

The Greek word translated "it is" is the third person of the verb "to be" ("to be" in English). There is no gender - in other words, gender is neuter. It is an assumption on the part of the translators that it indicates gender, and espcially that it indicates God.

What is "it"?

That is a matter of interpretation.

Notice that in this passage we do not have a clear, exactly chronological sequence of events. Jesus jumps back and forth a little.

Then we come to verse 32 and that word "NOW".

"Now" is the conjunction "de" in Greek.

"de" is used to change topics. "kai" is used to continue the same train of thought.

"de" is adversative, distinictive, disjunctive in nature.

The scriptures use "de" here . . so Jesus is changing His train of thought from what He has just said about The End of Days, to what He is talking about now.

To understand this better, we first need to look at verse 3:

Mat 24:3 ¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? ​

Note there are two questions there, not one. This is why there is some disjointedness in Jesus' answer. He is not answering just one queston, but two distinct questions.

He is here now going back to the first question He answered, "when shall these things be? " when He warns them in verses 15-18 to not stop for anything but to flee when they see the signs He foretold come upon Jerusalem. He is telling them that when they see the warnings preceeding this, that the desolation He foretold would be right at the doors. This is a warning to be ready to flee.

In 70AD, all of this happened in relationship to His words starting with verse 30. Before getting ready to tell me I am wrong, please follow along carefully with me while I explain:

To further drive this home, we go back to His answer of the first question and look more closesly:

Mat 24:15 ¶ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
​

Now notice something . . . here is the sequence of events in these verses:

1 - The abomination of desoloation appears. v15

2 - When they see this they are to flee v16-20

3 - The reason for fleeing being the tribulation that would be unleashed.​

Now let's stop there for a momment. In your paradigm, this is describing the Great Tribulation, the 7 Day Great Tribulation taught by dispenationalism. At the end of that Great Tribulation, Jesus comes back to defeat the antichrist and throgh the Beast and the Fale Prophet into the Bottomless Pit.

Then Christ remains and rules on earth from Jerusalem for 1000 years in a Golden Age free of sin and its sting, death.

But what does Jesus say?

Look again:

Tight on the heels of talking about this terrible tribulation, He says this:

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.​

Now wait a minute! Hold your horses!

How can it be that in the millenial reign of Christ on earth, where sin is no more, there can be any possibility of false christs and false prophets who will be working great sings and wonders?

everything just came to a schreaching halt in the dispensationalist use of this passage!

Verse 23 states "THEN" - the Greek word is tote and means that what follows this word

1. is future to what just concluded in the previous verses, and
2. pertains to when the things they discussed have taken place: THEN shall the Church see such a rise in false Christs and false prophets . ..

Obviously this portion of Christ's answer CAN'T be talking about the End of Days, as AFTER this tribulation, the false Christs and fale prophets will arise!

(And note, there is NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING about such a sinless age of peace and joy as the dispensationalists teach. Christ says nothing about that in any way. He doesn't even hint of it.)

Now, AFTER the tribulations of those days, the false christ's and false prophet's will arise . .. so we are talking about a tribulation that occurs BEFORE the rise of such.

This obviously can't be referring to the End of Days.

So what does it refer to then?

All we have to do is turn to history and it all unfolds just as Jesus said in relationship to this first question asked.

Things were heating up quite badly between the Jewish zealots and the Roman Empire. Finally the Roman Empire had had enough and attacked Jerusalem.

While the armies were off in the distance, the believers of Jerusalem and surrounding area, instead of running into the protection of the walls of Jerusalem, fled JUST AS JESUS TOLD THEM TO DO. Many fled to Petra, that hidden city in stone. Jerusalem was laid seige to, the abomination of desolation had come, Titus and his armies set up abmoniations in the Temple, the temple was destroyed, and such tribulatoin that had never been known in Jerusalem began. It lasted for at least a year . no food, forcing the Jews to resort to cannibalism to try to stay alive. For the Jew, no worse fate could have been possible, and so the greatest tribulation had begun.

Then what happened? Just as Jesus said, when this ended, THEN began the period of the rise of the great fasle prophets and false christs of the Early Church era . . . Just as Jesus said would happen.


Gordon, what dispenationalism does is roll these answers to 2 distinct and separate questions into one contiguous whole as if they answer the same question; but as we have just seen, that is a grave error. And as we have just seen, the timing of the tribulation here in this passage is BEFORE the rise of the false christs and prophets, not 2000 years after they arise on the stage.

The timing of dispenationalism teaches this:

false prophets and christs -> tribulation -> Coming of Chirst​

Matthew has it this way:

tribulation - > rise of false prophets and christs - > Coming of Christ​

They don't match.

Matthew 24 does not match dispenaitonalist teachings.


.

 

[holdon]

Not this kind

Matt 23:32 and ye--ye fill up the measure of your fathers. 33 `Serpents! generation/gennhmata <1081> of Vipers/ecidnwn <2191>! how may ye escape from the judgment of the geennhV ?

Ezekiel 39:12 "For seven months the house of Israel will be burying Them, in order to cleanse the land. 13 "Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says the Lord GOD

Exactly confirming what I said and the judgment of the unbelievers is at the end when Christ has returned. Rev 20.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

While the armies were off in the distance, the believers of Jerusalem and surrounding area, instead of running into the protection of the walls of Jerusalem, fled JUST AS JESUS TOLD THEM TO DO. Many fled to Petra, that hidden city in stone. Jerusalem was laid seige to, the abomination of desolation had come, Titus and his armies set up abmoniations in the Temple

I agree. But in the same way, you will also have to say the Bible is fulfilled [which is actually how I read it anyway].

Notice the greek word for "surround" in both Luke 21 and Reve 20.
I have a different view of this than most I think though.

Luke 21:20 `And when ye may see Jerusalem surrounded/kukloumenhn<2944> by encampments, then know that come nigh did her desolation;

Reve 20:9 and they did ascend/anebhsan <305> over the breadth of the land, and did surround/ekuklwsan <2944> the camp of the saints, and the city, the one having been loved, and there came down fire from God out of the heaven, and devoured them;

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Exactly confirming what I said and the judgment of the unbelievers is at the end when Christ has returned. Rev 20.

Those I think are the Jewish Priesthood who "murdered" their Messiah and failed to believe unto Him at the "End".

Matthew 23:31 So as ye are testifying to yourselves, that sons Ye are of the ones murdering/foneusantwn <5407> the prophets;

James 5:6 ye convict--ye murder/efoneusate <5407> the Righteous-One, not He is resisting to ye.

Revelation 9:21And not they reform/repent/metenohsan <3340> (5656) out of the murders/fonwn <5408> of them, nor out from their sorceries,...........

 

[Easystreet]

Gordon, I am going to ask you to read through this all the way before you answer and really think about what I say. Then read it again, perhaps a 3rd time.

I am going to share with you something you probably have never seen here.




Let's look at these key verses:

32. "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near;​

33. so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, {right} at the door.​

I don't know what translation you are using, but this is obviously a mistranslation. It should be:

Mat 24:32 ¶ Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:​

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors. ​

The Greek word translated "it is" is the thrid person of the verb "to be" ("to be" in English). There is no gender. It is an assumption on the part of the translators that it indicates gender, and espcially that it indicates God.

What is "it"?

That is a matter of interpretation.

Notice that in this passage we do not have a clear, exactly chronological sequence of events. Jesus jumps back and forth a little.

Then we come to verse 32 and that word "NOW".

"Now" is the conjuction "de" in Greek.

"de" is used to change topics. "kai" is used to continue the same train of thought.

"de" is adversative, distinictive, disjunctive in nature.

The scriptures use "de" here . . so Jesus is changing His train of thought from what He has just said about The End of Days, to what He is talking about now.


To understand this better, we first need to look at verse 34:

Mat 24:3 ¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? ​

Note there are two questions there, not one. This is why there is some disjointedness in Jesus' answer. He is not answering just one queston, but two distinct questions.

He is here now going back to the first question He answered, "when shall these things be? " when He warns them in verses 15-18 to not stop for anything but to flee when they see the signs He foretold come upon Jerusalem. He is telling them that when they see the warnings preceeding this, that the desolation He foretold would be right at the doors. This is a warning to be ready to flee.

In 70AD, all of this happened in realtionship to His words starting with verse 30.



To further drive this home, we go back to His answer of the first question and look more closesly:

Mat 24:15 ¶ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand​

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: ​

Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: ​

Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. ​

Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! ​

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: ​

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. ​

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. ​

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not. ​

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. ​

Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before. ​

Now notice something . . . here is the sequence of events in these verses:

1 - The abomination of desoloation appears. v15​

2 - When they see this they are to flee v16-20​

3 - The reason for fleeing being the tribulation that would be unleashed.​

Now let's stop there for a momment. In your paradigm, this is describing the Great Tribulation, the 7 Day Great Tribulation taught by dispenationalism. At the end of that Great Tribulation, Jesus comes back to defeat the antichrist and throgh the Beast and the Fale Prophet into the Bottomless Pit.

Then Christ remains and rules on earth from Jerusalem for 1000 years in a Golden Age free of sin and its sting, death.

But what does Jesus say?

Look again:


He says, right on the heels of talkinb about this terrible tribulation, this:

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.​

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. ​

Now wait a minute! Hold your horses!

How can it be that in the millenial reign of Christ on earth, where sin is no more, there can be any possibility of false christs and false prophets who will be working great sings and wonders?

everything just came to a schreaching halt in the dispensationalist paradigm!

Verse 23 states "THEN" - the Greek word is tote and means what follows this word

1. is future to what just concluded in the previous verses, and
2. pertains to when the things they discussed have taken place: THEN shall the Church see such a rise in false Christs and false prophets . ..

Obviously this portion of Christ's answer CAN'T be talking about the End of Days, as AFTER this tribulation, the false Christs and fale prophets will arise!

(And note, there is NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING about such a sinless age of peace and joy as the dispensationalists teach. Christ says nothing about that in any way. He doesn't even hint of it.)

Now, AFTER the tribulations of those days, the false christ's and false prophet's will arise . .. so we are talking aboult a tribulation that occurs BEFORE the rise of such.

This obviously can't be referring to the End of Days.

So what does it refer to then?

All we have to do is turn to history and it all unfolds just as Jesus said in relationship to this first question asked.

Things were heating up quite badly between the Jewish zealots and the Roman Empire. Finally the Roman Empire had had enough and attacked Jerusalem.

While the armies were off in the distance, the believers of Jerusalem and surrounding area, instead of running into the protection of the walls of Jerusalem, fled JUST AS JESUS TOLD THEM TO DO. Many fled to Petra, that hidden city in stone. Jerusalem was laid seige to, the abomination of desolation had come, Titus and his armies set up abmoniations in the Temple, the temple was destroyed, and such tribulatoin that had never been known in Jerusalem began. It lasted for at least a year . no food, forcing the Jews to resort to cannibalism to try to stay alive. For the Jew, no worse fate could have been possible, and so the greatest tribulation had begun.

Then what happened? Just as Jesus said, this began the period of the rise of the great fasle prophets and false christs of the Early Church era . . . Just as Jesus said would happen.


Gordon, what dispenationalism does is roll these answers to these 2 distinct and separate questions into one contiguous whole as if they answer the same question; but as we have just seen, that is a grave error. And as we have just seen, the timing of the tribulation here in this passage is BEFORE the rise of the false christs and prophets, not 2000 years after they arise on the stage.

The timing of dispenationalism teaches this:

false prophets and christs -> tribulation -> Coming of Chirst​

Matthew has it this way:

tribulation - > rise of false prophets and christ's - > Coming of Christ​

They don't match.

Matthew 24 does not match dispenaitonalist teachings.


.

You have really got it bad. I will deal with this tomorrow if time permits. I do have to work here and there.

 

[Easystreet]

Gordon, I am going to ask you to read through this all the way before you answer and really think about what I say. Then read it again, perhaps a 3rd time.

I am going to share with you something you probably have never seen here.





Let's look at these key verses:

32. "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near;​

33. so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, {right} at the door.​

I don't know what translation you are using, but this is obviously a mistranslation. It should be:

Mat 24:32 ¶ Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:​

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors. ​

The Greek word translated "it is" is the thrid person of the verb "to be" ("to be" in English). There is no gender. It is an assumption on the part of the translators that it indicates gender, and espcially that it indicates God.

What is "it"?

That is a matter of interpretation.

Notice that in this passage we do not have a clear, exactly chronological sequence of events. Jesus jumps back and forth a little.

Then we come to verse 32 and that word "NOW".

"Now" is the conjuction "de" in Greek.

"de" is used to change topics. "kai" is used to continue the same train of thought.

"de" is adversative, distinictive, disjunctive in nature.

The scriptures use "de" here . . so Jesus is changing His train of thought from what He has just said about The End of Days, to what He is talking about now.



To understand this better, we first need to look at verse 34:

Mat 24:3 ¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? ​

Note there are two questions there, not one. This is why there is some disjointedness in Jesus' answer. He is not answering just one queston, but two distinct questions.

He is here now going back to the first question He answered, "when shall these things be? " when He warns them in verses 15-18 to not stop for anything but to flee when they see the signs He foretold come upon Jerusalem. He is telling them that when they see the warnings preceeding this, that the desolation He foretold would be right at the doors. This is a warning to be ready to flee.

In 70AD, all of this happened in realtionship to His words starting with verse 30.




To further drive this home, we go back to His answer of the first question and look more closesly:

Mat 24:15 ¶ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand​

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: ​

Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: ​

Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. ​

Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! ​

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: ​

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. ​

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. ​

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not. ​

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. ​

Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before. ​

Now notice something . . . here is the sequence of events in these verses:

1 - The abomination of desoloation appears. v15​

2 - When they see this they are to flee v16-20​

3 - The reason for fleeing being the tribulation that would be unleashed.​

Now let's stop there for a momment. In your paradigm, this is describing the Great Tribulation, the 7 Day Great Tribulation taught by dispenationalism. At the end of that Great Tribulation, Jesus comes back to defeat the antichrist and throgh the Beast and the Fale Prophet into the Bottomless Pit.

Then Christ remains and rules on earth from Jerusalem for 1000 years in a Golden Age free of sin and its sting, death.

But what does Jesus say?

Look again:



He says, right on the heels of talkinb about this terrible tribulation, this:

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.​

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. ​

Now wait a minute! Hold your horses!

How can it be that in the millenial reign of Christ on earth, where sin is no more, there can be any possibility of false christs and false prophets who will be working great sings and wonders?

everything just came to a schreaching halt in the dispensationalist paradigm!

Verse 23 states "THEN" - the Greek word is tote and means what follows this word

1. is future to what just concluded in the previous verses, and
2. pertains to when the things they discussed have taken place: THEN shall the Church see such a rise in false Christs and false prophets . ..

Obviously this portion of Christ's answer CAN'T be talking about the End of Days, as AFTER this tribulation, the false Christs and fale prophets will arise!

(And note, there is NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING about such a sinless age of peace and joy as the dispensationalists teach. Christ says nothing about that in any way. He doesn't even hint of it.)

Now, AFTER the tribulations of those days, the false christ's and false prophet's will arise . .. so we are talking aboult a tribulation that occurs BEFORE the rise of such.

This obviously can't be referring to the End of Days.

So what does it refer to then?

All we have to do is turn to history and it all unfolds just as Jesus said in relationship to this first question asked.

Things were heating up quite badly between the Jewish zealots and the Roman Empire. Finally the Roman Empire had had enough and attacked Jerusalem.

While the armies were off in the distance, the believers of Jerusalem and surrounding area, instead of running into the protection of the walls of Jerusalem, fled JUST AS JESUS TOLD THEM TO DO. Many fled to Petra, that hidden city in stone. Jerusalem was laid seige to, the abomination of desolation had come, Titus and his armies set up abmoniations in the Temple, the temple was destroyed, and such tribulatoin that had never been known in Jerusalem began. It lasted for at least a year . no food, forcing the Jews to resort to cannibalism to try to stay alive. For the Jew, no worse fate could have been possible, and so the greatest tribulation had begun.

Then what happened? Just as Jesus said, this began the period of the rise of the great fasle prophets and false christs of the Early Church era . . . Just as Jesus said would happen.


Gordon, what dispenationalism does is roll these answers to these 2 distinct and separate questions into one contiguous whole as if they answer the same question; but as we have just seen, that is a grave error. And as we have just seen, the timing of the tribulation here in this passage is BEFORE the rise of the false christs and prophets, not 2000 years after they arise on the stage.

The timing of dispenationalism teaches this:

false prophets and christs -> tribulation -> Coming of Chirst​

Matthew has it this way:

tribulation - > rise of false prophets and christ's - > Coming of Christ​

They don't match.

Matthew 24 does not match dispenaitonalist teachings.


.

You have really got it bad. I will deal with this tomorrow if time permits. I do have to work here and there.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Well, I can't subscribe to the full Preterist position because Chrsit's coming visibly at the End of Days is so that every eye will see Him is so clearly taught.

.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Gordon, I had hoped you would take time to carefully and thoughtfully read it before responding at all.

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

To understand this better, we first need to look at verse 34:

Mat 24:3 ¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? ​

Matthew 24 is the only place in the Gospels the greek word "Parousia" is used. The Bible is fulfilled after that event I believe.

http://foru.ms/t5366795-what-is-the-parousia-in-the-new-testament.html

Matthew 24:3 He is yet sitting on the Mount of the olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what the Sign of Thy ParousiaV <3952>, and the full-End/sunteleiaV <4930> of the Age?'

2 Peter 3:12 toward-hoping and being-diligent of the Parousian<3952> of the Day of the God By which the heavens, being on fire, shall be being dissolved, and the elements with burning heat is being melted

 

[holdon]

Gordon, I am going to ask you to read through this all the way before you answer and really think about what I say. Then read it again, perhaps a 3rd time.

Don't be so condescending please.

I am going to share with you something you probably have never seen here.








Let's look at these key verses:

32. "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near;​

33. so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, {right} at the door.​

I don't know what translation you are using, but this is obviously a mistranslation. It should be:

Mat 24:32 ¶ Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:​

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors. ​

The Greek word translated "it is" is the thrid person of the verb "to be" ("to be" in English). There is no gender. It is an assumption on the part of the translators that it indicates gender, and espcially that it indicates God.

What is "it"?

That is a matter of interpretation.

Well, by the rule of all languages the "it" refers back to the closest noun that matches: Summer.

Notice that in this passage we do not have a clear, exactly chronological sequence of events. Jesus jumps back and forth a little.

Jesus "jumps back and forth a little"???? It is pretty chronological: then, after, when, then. etc.

Then we come to verse 32 and that word "NOW".

"Now" is the conjuction "de" in Greek.

"de" is used to change topics. "kai" is used to continue the same train of thought.

"de" is adversative, distinictive, disjunctive in nature.

The scriptures use "de" here . . so Jesus is changing His train of thought from what He has just said about The End of Days, to what He is talking about now.






To understand this better, we first need to look at verse 34:

Mat 24:3 ¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? ​

Note there are two questions there, not one. This is why there is some disjointedness in Jesus' answer. He is not answering just one queston, but two distinct questions.

He is here now going back to the first question He answered, "when shall these things be? " when He warns them in verses 15-18 to not stop for anything but to flee when they see the signs He foretold come upon Jerusalem. He is telling them that when they see the warnings preceeding this, that the desolation He foretold would be right at the doors. This is a warning to be ready to flee.

In 70AD, all of this happened in realtionship to His words starting with verse 30.

Ah, the preterist view, I guess. But the Son of Man never showed up, did He? So how can she say "all of this happened in 70AD"?????

Now notice something . . . here is the sequence of events in these verses:

1 - The abomination of desoloation appears. v15​

But it was never there in 70AD​

2 - When they see this they are to flee v16-20​

3 - The reason for fleeing being the tribulation that would be unleashed.​

Now let's stop there for a momment. In your paradigm, this is describing the Great Tribulation

Not only in Gordon's paradigm, it is the biblical paradigm because the "then" of verse 21 matches the "when" of verse 15.

the 7 D

ay Great Tribulation taught by dispenationalism. At the end of that Great Tribulation, Jesus comes back to defeat the antichrist and throgh the Beast and the Fale Prophet into the Bottomless Pit.


Then Christ remains and rules on earth from Jerusalem for 1000 years in a Golden Age free of sin and its sting, death.

But what does Jesus say?

Look again:






He says, right on the heels of talkinb about this terrible tribulation, this:

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.​

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. ​

Now wait a minute! Hold your horses!

How can it be that in the millenial reign of Christ on earth, where sin is no more, there can be any possibility of false christs and false prophets who will be working great sings and wonders?

Well yeah, hold it right there. I guess you can't read right. Because that's in the middle of the great tribulation BEFORE Christ comes back. Otherwise why the warning for the false christs. Plus read the chronology: Jesus' coming is only spoken of in verses 27 and 30. Not before verse 23. See how she upsets the whole chronology by making Jesus' jump?

everything just came to a schreaching halt in the dispensationalist paradigm!

Verse 23 states "THEN" - the Greek word is tote and means what follows this word

1. is future to what just concluded in the previous verses, and
2. pertains to when the things they discussed have taken place: THEN shall the Church see such a rise in false Christs and false prophets . ..

Obviously this portion of Christ's answer CAN'T be talking about the End of Days, as AFTER this tribulation, the false Christs and fale prophets will arise!

(And note, there is NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING about such a sinless age of peace and joy as the dispensationalists teach. Christ says nothing about that in any way. He doesn't even hint of it.)

Now, AFTER the tribulations of those days, the false christ's and false prophet's will arise . .. so we are talking aboult a tribulation that occurs BEFORE the rise of such.

See how she twists this around Gordon. Not to worry: where does it say "after the tribulation of those days"? Right: in verse 29. Where do we read about the false christs? Right: in verse 24. See that's what you get when you make Jesus jump.... Quite a mess.

 

[holdon]

Those I think are the Jewish Priesthood who "murdered" their Messiah and failed to believe unto Him at the "End".

Matthew 23:31 So as ye are testifying to yourselves, that sons Ye are of the ones murdering/foneusantwn <5407> the prophets;

James 5:6 ye convict--ye murder/efoneusate <5407> the Righteous-One, not He is resisting to ye.

Revelation 9:21And not they reform/repent/metenohsan <3340> (5656) out of the murders/fonwn <5408> of them, nor out from their sorceries,...........

But "Gehenna" is at the end in Rev 20.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

But "Gehenna" is at the end in Rev 20.

I am still trying to "dissect" that greek word.
I leave a lot of greek words "untranslated" just because it is difficult to find an english equivalent.

Matt 23:33 "Serpents, gennhmata <1081> of Vipers! How may ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV"

2 Corinthians 9:10 The yet one-supplying seed to the one sowing, and bread into feeding he shall be furnishing, and he shall be multiplying the seed of ye, and he shall be causing to grow fruits/gennhmata <1081> of the righteousness of ye,

Matt 1:Scroll of genesewV/1078/S of Jesus, annointed Son of-David, Son of-Abraham/'Abram
2 Abraham egennhsen <1080> the Isaac, Isaac yet generates/egennhsen <1080> the Jacob, Jacob yet generates/egennhsen <1080> the Judah and the brothers of him.

James 3:6 And the tongue a fire the world of the unrighteous. The tongue is being set in the members us, the one spotting whole the body, and setting-aflame of the circuit/trocon <5164> of genesewV <1078>, and is set on fire by the geennhV <1067>. [James 1:23]

 

[Notrash]

Ah, but no Son of Man in sight anywhere. That settles it,
I think.

I wasnt' there to see the clouds and the images in the sky, but Josephus records them and that they caused GREAT fear and trembling in all the cities of Judea.
Did Jesus 'touch down' when the old world was judged by water? Did it say that Jesus would come to earth and fight? Or that he would be seen coming in the clouds and great glory. The symbolism is simple.... the Roman armies were God's vengence on the evil and adultrous generation.

No, it is that that "generation" that kind of unbelieving people, would still be around. ???

A very simple word search for genea will show the fallacy of your statement. Although there are times when 'kind' can be interjected into the meaning and it would be meaningful, most often in is referring to a generation of 30-50 years. And since the wandering in the wilderness after the giving of the law set the standard at 40 years, that standard is repeated as Joshua/Jesus slays his enemies who crucified him..(the unbelieving religious leaders and jews).

This is how you would say to interpret this verse.
So all the KINDS from Abraham to David [are] fourteen KINDS; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon [are] fourteen KINDS; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ [are] fourteen KINDS. Perhaps these should be the new dispensations??? Is that what this is referring to?

But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this (KIND)generation.

The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this KIND and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas [is] here.

They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Just as the flood of Roman soldiers came and destroyed all who stayed in the city.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Just as the flood of Roman soldiers came and destroyed all who stayed in the city.

Well, we do know John 11:48 was fulfilled just as the Jews feared. Without his witness, we would be hard pressed to prove a Sanctuary and Temple ever existed.

John 11:48 "If ever we should be letting Him thus, all shall be believing in Him, and shall be coming the Romans and they shall be snatching-away of us and the Place and the nation."

Reve 6:6 and I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, `A measure of wheat for a Denary, and three measures of barley for a Denary,' and `The oil and the wine thou mayest not injure.'

http://www.davieapostolicchurch.com/studies/destuct/

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover. At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, ......

...........The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins ; and the Roman army as in triumph on the event, came and reared their ensigns against a fragment of the eastern gate, .....................

 

[Notrash]

Well, we do

know John 11:48 was fulfilled just as the Jews feared. Without his witness, we would be hard pressed to prove a Sanctuary and Temple ever existed.

John 11:48 "If ever we should be letting Him thus, all shall be believing in Him, and shall be coming the Romans and they shall be snatching-away of us and the Place and the nation."

It certainly would seem that the Pharisees loved the place (I always read that to mean their place of status) and the 'nation' more than they loved the truth. One could easily draw analogies to present time.

Reve 6:6 and I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, `A measure of wheat for a Denary, and three measures of barley for a Denary,' and `The oil and the wine thou mayest not injure.'

This is one of the powerful associations between Rev and the happenings of that time. This was recorded almost word for word by Josephus.

http://www.davieapostolicchurch.com/studies/destuct/

Thanks for the link.

Among the terrible calamities which at this time happened to the Jews, those which befel them at Joppa, which had been rebuilt, deserve particular notice. Their frequent piracies had provoked the vengeance of Vespasian. (Nothing new under the sun, my comments). The Jews fled before his army to their ships ; but a tempest immediately arose, and pursued such as stood out to sea, and overset them, while the rest were dashed vessel against vessel, and against the rocks, in the most tremendous manner. In this perplexity many were drowned, some were crushed by the broken ships, others killed themselves, and such as reached the shore were slain by the merciless Romans. The sea for a long space was stained with blood ; four thousand two hundred dead bodies were strewed along the coast, and, dreadful to relate, not an individual survived to report this great calamity at Jerusalem.

Isaiah 59:18 According to [their] deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.

By the way, this is the understanding I am beginning to see from Rom 11. Being that the unelect part of the jews were blinded unto/until the fullness of the Gentiles come in. This fulness is refering to the full season and full army of the Roman armies, similar to Jesus' times of the gentiles be fulfilled.
But in the Holy Spirits and Pauls wisdom, there is a dual interpretation that was able to be taken from reading the verses for those who would not be able to accept and understand this vengence at that time. Or for those to whom it was intended to be hidden. I think this is why Paul (like Jesus when he quoted Isaiah 61) did not quote the whole passage, but only that which would not give away the upcoming destruction. And that dual interpretation would be that the fullness of the Gentiles also referred to the gentile converts who were filled with Gods spirit, causing jealousy in some of the yet unsaved, but yet to be elect Jews.

The idea that until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled would again refer to a restored jewish nation is defeated by the choice of words Paul used when talking about the Gifts and calling of God that is irrevocable. He didn't say the promises and prophecies are irrevocable or even infer those words. Thus those Gifts and calls are refering to the soon to be elect, but at that time present enemies of the Christians whom God could and would yet graff into the olive tree, Just as Paul was once an enemy of the Gospel. The restored nation Idea in this passage is also defeated by Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
The passage in Isaiah 59 further supports the Salvation and new covenant aspect that came through Christ and even affirms the vengence and destruction to occur on the enemies.

Now the next verse offers some difficulties.

Is 59:19. So shall they fear
The name of the LORD from the west,
And His glory from the rising of the sun;
When the enemy comes in like a flood,
The Spirit of the LORD will lift up a standard against him.

If we take away the comma after flood and add a period, and seperate the next sentence in thought, then the 'him" could refer to the serpent in verse 5.

They hatch vipers' eggs and weave the spider's web;
He who eats of their eggs dies,
(Beware the yeast of the Pharisees)
And from that which is crushed a viper breaks out.

I'll have to check into the rythm of the previous verses.

The other thought is that the first 3 verses of 59:19 are together with the second 2 revering to the enemies of Christ which would be those who crucified him and all who wish to suppress truth. And this would refer back to vs 5.

So shall they fearThe name of the LORD from the west,
And His glory from the rising of the sun;

When the enemy comes in like a flood,
(this would refer to Jesus' enemies who crucified him in unbelief, not the Roman armies)
The Spirit of the LORD will lift up a standard against him.(the serpent)

I'm not sure if this would be referring to the cross, or to the Roman standards, but it could be either. I think it might be refering to the cross as the Standard of Jesus atoning death by which there is no more condemnation.