Hakim, Protests, Media and other Opportunists

[Ana the Ist]

In the wake of the George Floyd killing, I've seen a sentiment repeated by posters on this forum as well as in the media at large. It's the idea that had prosecutors acted more swiftly...the protests and riots wouldn't have happened. Indeed, I've seen some claim that without the protests....the officers involved wouldn't have been charged.

The Floyd case has put a spotlight on many other local cases as "protesters" have sought to reopen some cases and prosecute others. One case in particular has shown that it might be worth considering that these protests are driven more by emotion than injustice...

What we know about the Detroit police shooting of Hakim Littleton, protests

The short version is that a fight at a block party resulted in gunfire that got 8 people shot and 3 killed. Police show up to arrest a suspect in the shooting...and the suspect's friend, a young black man named Hakim Littleton, decides to shoot at police for arresting his friend. Police returned fire and killed Hakim.

People were protesting within hours. They appeared to be under the assumption that police had murdered Hakim, shooting him in the back of the head. The police chief came out and basically said the shooting was justified. He told the protesters that he would provide video evidence.

The protest continued and escalated anyway. The police chief returned with video evidence of Hakim shooting at the police just before police shoot him.

You might think that would end the protesting. It didn't.

More than 100 protesters gathered at the scene, and yelled over the police tape at officers.

The tape fell more than once, and police in riot gear eventually showed up.

An ice cooler, traffic cones and concrete were thrown at officers as they pushed forward. Police said eight people were arrested, and organizers said those included Detroit Will Breathe’s Taylor and Nakia-Renne Wallace.

To summarize, a mass shooting occurs...3 killed and 8 shot. During the arrest of a suspect, Hakim Littleton shoots at police and gets killed by returning gunfire. Protests begin in less than 24 hours and the police tell them the shooting was justified. Protests continue and police release footage proving the shooting was self defense. Protests continue and turn violent, several organizers get arrested...and the protests seem to die out.

That didn't stop requests for information about the police though...which the police have decided not to disclose. Frankly, I don't blame them in this case.

I think it's easy to blame mistrust of police here, but it's not going to explain the reaction from this community. I can understand being skeptical...but this is blatant disbelief in spite of evidence.

More than disbelief though...is the nature of the outrage. This community isn't protesting against the pandemic block party, nor the mass shooting that killed 3 of 8 victims, nor the gang affiliations that prompted Hakim to shoot at police when they arrested his friend....

They're protesting against the police who, all things considered, did an excellent job.

It's hard to imagine the mindset, perceptions, and biases that must be pervasive in a community for them to hate the police or see them as some kind of enemy in this situation. I've no doubt that media portrayal of police is a factor. It's especially difficult for me to understand why there's really no studies on such things. One can find an almost endless amount of studies about police biases and perceptions....but the perceptions of a community like this are practically taboo.

Thoughts? Given that so many communities are advocating defunding or abolishing the police....shouldn't we start looking at the perceptions and biases of the communities who insist the police aren't needed? How does one end up with a negative view of the police and yet such a vigorously positive view of such dangerous criminals?

 

[iluvatar5150]

How does one end up with a negative view of the police and yet such a vigorously positive view of such dangerous criminals?

While I question how "vigorously positive" their views actually are, I would answer your question by saying decades of abuse, dishonesty, and neglect at the hands of the police and other government agencies. I'm a white guy and I wouldn't have taken police at their word without the video.

 

[Ana the Ist]

While I question how "vigorously positive" their views actually are,

Relative to the police or other communities that spawned a mass shooter?

Right off the top of my head I can think of multiple mass shooters that were gunned down by police and literally no one complained....not even the shooter's family. No one questioned whether the police did the right thing, etc.

I'm aware the guy killed wasn't the mass shooter...he just happened to be a fellow gang member/friend willing to kill police for him. It would be hard to find a direct apples to apples comparison though...since there aren't a lot of people willing to shoot police over the arrest of a mass shooter.

In this case, I'd argue that the guy trying to kill the police over someone else's arrest isn't a much better person than the guy who shoots 8 over an argument at a party.

I would answer your question by saying decades of abuse, dishonesty, and neglect at the hands of the police and other government agencies.

Let's not forget the decades of solving murders, rapes, assaults, robberies...preventing these crimes...saving lives, recovering property, etc.

You're really helping make my point. If the negative things you listed dominate the perceptions of police in certain communities and not the positives I listed...it's probably worth figuring out why so we can figure out why and how to change it.

 

[jgarden]

Hakim, Protests, Media and other Opportunists

The fact remains that in the past, police departments have been willing to look the other way taking the path of least resistance, allowing hopefully just a few "bad apples" to bring the reputation of all into disrepute!

With the advent of the 21stC and the universal availability of video phones, police officers and departments have been slow to accept the assumption that every arrest they make in public has the potential to be videoed and make its way onto the evening news that night!

The traditional excuses, such as "resisting arrest," that once went unchallenged, will now be forced to stand up to closer scrutiny as the broader community is now viewing video after video of unprofessional police conduct!

As always, the good will suffer for the sins of the bad, but this appears to be a "watershed moment" whereby police officers should realize that it is now in their best interests to end this "code of silence" and for departments to remove these rogue officers from their ranks - before they are all dragged down with them!

 

[Ana the Ist]

Hakim, Protests, Media and other Opportunists

The fact remains that in the past, police departments have been willing to look the other way, taking the path of least resistance, allowing hopefully just a few "bad apples" to bring the reputation of all into disrepute!

With the advent of the 21stC and the universal availability of video, police officers and departments have been slow to accept the assumption that every arrest they make in public has the potential to be videoed and make its way onto the evening news that night!

The traditional excuses, such as "resisting arrest," that once went unchallenged, will now be forced to stand up to closer scrutiny as the broader community is now viewing video after video of unprofessional police conduct!

As always, the good officers will suffer for the sins of the bad, but police officers should use this as an opportunity to break their "code of silence" and for departments to purge themselves of those who have a history of abuse - only then will they regain the trust of the public!

Are you going to comment on the topic?

 

[disciple Clint]

In the wake of the George Floyd killing, I've seen a sentiment repeated by posters on this forum as well as in the media at large. It's the idea that had prosecutors acted more swiftly...the protests and riots wouldn't have happened. Indeed, I've seen some claim that without the protests....the officers involved wouldn't have been charged.

The Floyd case has put a spotlight on many other local cases as "protesters" have sought to reopen some cases and prosecute others. One case in particular has shown that it might be worth considering that these protests are driven more by emotion than injustice...

What we know about the Detroit police shooting of Hakim Littleton, protests

The short version is that a fight at a block party resulted in gunfire that got 8 people shot and 3 killed. Police show up to arrest a suspect in the shooting...and the suspect's friend, a young black man named Hakim Littleton, decides to shoot at police for arresting his friend. Police returned fire and killed Hakim.

People were protesting within hours. They appeared to be under the assumption that police had murdered Hakim, shooting him in the back of the head. The police chief came out and basically said the shooting was justified. He told the protesters that he would provide video evidence.

The protest continued and escalated anyway. The police chief returned with video evidence of Hakim shooting at the police just before police shoot him.

You might think that would end the protesting. It didn't.

More than 100 protesters gathered at the scene, and yelled over the police tape at officers.

The tape fell more than once, and police in riot gear eventually showed up.

An ice cooler, traffic cones and concrete were thrown at officers as they pushed forward. Police said eight people were arrested, and organizers said those included Detroit Will Breathe’s Taylor and Nakia-Renne Wallace.

To summarize, a mass shooting occurs...3 killed and 8 shot. During the arrest of a suspect, Hakim Littleton shoots at police and gets killed by returning gunfire. Protests begin in less than 24 hours and the police tell them the shooting was justified. Protests continue and police release footage proving the shooting was self defense. Protests continue and turn violent, several organizers get arrested...and the protests seem to die out.

That didn't stop requests for information about the police though...which the police have decided not to disclose. Frankly, I don't blame them in this case.

I think it's easy to blame mistrust of police here, but it's not going to explain the reaction from this community. I can understand being skeptical...but this is blatant disbelief in spite of evidence.

More than disbelief though...is the nature of the outrage. This community isn't protesting against the pandemic block party, nor the mass shooting that killed 3 of 8 victims, nor the gang affiliations that prompted Hakim to shoot at police when they arrested his friend....

They're protesting against the police who, all things considered, did an excellent job.

It's hard to imagine the mindset, perceptions, and biases that must be pervasive in a community for them to hate the police or see them as some kind of enemy in this situation. I've no doubt that media portrayal of police is a factor. It's especially difficult for me to understand why there's really no studies on such things. One can find an almost endless amount of studies about police biases and perceptions....but the perceptions of a community like this are practically taboo.

Thoughts? Given that so many communities are advocating defunding or abolishing the police....shouldn't we start looking at the perceptions and biases of the communities who insist the police aren't needed? How does one end up with a negative view of the police and yet such a vigorously positive view of such dangerous criminals?

There are some people who need to believe that they are victims, it is the justification that they need for engaging in illegal activity. When they break the law they are just getting what they are entitled to because they are victims. If the world was fair they would not have to steal or break the law. Their whole concept of self worth requires them to believe that they are victims, they convince themselves that the reason why they are not successful is because they are victims. Society is keeping them down, the police are keeping them down. So society, the laws of society and the police are all their enemies. When there is an opportunity to reinforce this victim identity such as protesting against the police, looting, and destroying property they make the most out of the opportunity. This activity validates their beliefs. Therefore it should not surprise anyone that they will not accept any evidence that conflicts with their needs.

 

[istodolez]

There are some people who need to believe that they are victims, it is the justification that they need for engaging in illegal activity.

This is probably true for a lot of people. Regardless of race etc.

When they break the law they are just getting what they are entitled to because they are victims.

But what if they feel that society has ignored or oppressed them throughout their lives? That the whole "social contract" of "if you follow the rules the system will NOT beat you up" has never been experienced that way by them?

We can argue all the live-long day whether YOU believe them, but if they tell you: "I am in pain and feel like your society asks me to stay in line but then goes ahead and kills me on the streets" and that's what they see happening over and over and over...do you understand how your "sensitivities" about law and order could mean less than nothing to them?

If the world was fair they would not have to steal or break the law. Their whole concept of self worth requires them to believe that they are victims,

We see that a lot among American Evangelicals who feel that they are being victimized by not being allowed to force their religious beliefs on others. But to their credit they do not break windows and steal. They do the proper thing in a democracy: they vote for the strong-man who promises them to support their casus belli and they help usher in the decimation of the foundational concept of "plurality" in our nation. It's so much more civilized than breaking glass and burning things.

they convince themselves that the reason why they are not successful is because they are victims.

...well, they probably also listen when people call then names like "animals" and "thugs" most of their lives, and they have difficulty being "successful" in jobs they are frozen out of systematically.

This activity validates their beliefs. Therefore it should not surprise anyone that they will not accept any evidence that conflicts with their needs.

So how well has this approach of simply telling people they are bad people and everything they fail to achieve is their fault been over the past several decades in regards to race relations in the US?

I mean, by all means, keep trying! It's got to bear fruit SOMETIME.

 

[tall73]

With the advent of the 21stC and the universal availability of video, police officers and departments have been slow to accept the assumption that every arrest they make in public has the potential to be videoed and make its way onto the evening news that night!

But that needs to work both ways. Videos have shown the need for reform of police practice. But if the video shows that the shooting was prompted by someone firing on the police, that also needs to be acknowledged.

Trust takes time to be built. Body cams are a good tool because then facts can be verified to a greater degree, and accountability can happen in cases of abuse. But they also provide evidence in cases where police did handle it correctly.

If all the evidence points to handling it correctly, but protests are started anyway, that undercuts the reform process. If the goal is for police and the community to cooperate, and to build a more just system, then everyone needs to operate in good faith.

 

[rjs330]

This is probably true for a lot of people. Regardless of race etc.



But what if they feel that society has ignored or oppressed them throughout their lives? That the whole "social contract" of "if you follow the rules the system will NOT beat you up" has never been experienced that way by them?

We can argue all the live-long day whether YOU believe them, but if they tell you: "I am in pain and feel like your society asks me to stay in line but then goes ahead and kills me on the streets" and that's what they see happening over and over and over...do you understand how your "sensitivities" about law and order could mean less than nothing to them?



We see that a lot among American Evangelicals who feel that they are being victimized by not being allowed to force their religious beliefs on others. But to their credit they do not break windows and steal. They do the proper thing in a democracy: they vote for the strong-man who promises them to support their casus belli and they help usher in the decimation of the foundational concept of "plurality" in our nation. It's so much more civilized than breaking glass and burning things.



...well, they probably also listen when people call then names like "animals" and "thugs" most of their lives, and they have difficulty being "successful" in jobs they are frozen out of systematically.



So how well has this approach of simply telling people they are bad people and everything they fail to achieve is their fault been over the past several decades in regards to race relations in the US?

I mean, by all means, keep trying! It's got to bear fruit SOMETIME.

Blacks are disagreeing with you.

 

[istodolez]

Blacks are disagreeing with you.

Interesting! Thanks for passing that along! So now the BIG question: why do so many black people protest? Do you think they didn't get a chance to see this video?

Probably the best thing YOU can do right NOW is to send this to all black people so they know!

Now that we know racism is over I guess it's all good now! Thanks for saving us!

 

[FireDragon76]

In the wake of the George Floyd killing, I've seen a sentiment repeated by posters on this forum as well as in the media at large. It's the idea that had prosecutors acted more swiftly...the protests and riots wouldn't have happened. Indeed, I've seen some claim that without the protests....the officers involved wouldn't have been charged.

The Floyd case has put a spotlight on many other local cases as "protesters" have sought to reopen some cases and prosecute others. One case in particular has shown that it might be worth considering that these protests are driven more by emotion than injustice...

What we know about the Detroit police shooting of Hakim Littleton, protests

The short version is that a fight at a block party resulted in gunfire that got 8 people shot and 3 killed. Police show up to arrest a suspect in the shooting...and the suspect's friend, a young black man named Hakim Littleton, decides to shoot at police for arresting his friend. Police returned fire and killed Hakim.

People were protesting within hours. They appeared to be under the assumption that police had murdered Hakim, shooting him in the back of the head. The police chief came out and basically said the shooting was justified. He told the protesters that he would provide video evidence.

The protest continued and escalated anyway. The police chief returned with video evidence of Hakim shooting at the police just before police shoot him.

You might think that would end the protesting. It didn't.

More than 100 protesters gathered at the scene, and yelled over the police tape at officers.

The tape fell more than once, and police in riot gear eventually showed up.

An ice cooler, traffic cones and concrete were thrown at officers as they pushed forward. Police said eight people were arrested, and organizers said those included Detroit Will Breathe’s Taylor and Nakia-Renne Wallace.

To summarize, a mass shooting occurs...3 killed and 8 shot. During the arrest of a suspect, Hakim Littleton shoots at police and gets killed by returning gunfire. Protests begin in less than 24 hours and the police tell them the shooting was justified. Protests continue and police release footage proving the shooting was self defense. Protests continue and turn violent, several organizers get arrested...and the protests seem to die out.

That didn't stop requests for information about the police though...which the police have decided not to disclose. Frankly, I don't blame them in this case.

I think it's easy to blame mistrust of police here, but it's not going to explain the reaction from this community. I can understand being skeptical...but this is blatant disbelief in spite of evidence.

More than disbelief though...is the nature of the outrage. This community isn't protesting against the pandemic block party, nor the mass shooting that killed 3 of 8 victims, nor the gang affiliations that prompted Hakim to shoot at police when they arrested his friend....

They're protesting against the police who, all things considered, did an excellent job.

It's hard to imagine the mindset, perceptions, and biases that must be pervasive in a community for them to hate the police or see them as some kind of enemy in this situation. I've no doubt that media portrayal of police is a factor. It's especially difficult for me to understand why there's really no studies on such things. One can find an almost endless amount of studies about police biases and perceptions....but the perceptions of a community like this are practically taboo.

Thoughts? Given that so many communities are advocating defunding or abolishing the police....shouldn't we start looking at the perceptions and biases of the communities who insist the police aren't needed? How does one end up with a negative view of the police and yet such a vigorously positive view of such dangerous criminals?

I agree it's a problem and I think it undermines the "defund the police" rhetoric. Even the mayor of Atlanta changed her tune after protesters started killing innocent people.

I think George Floyd's killing was an injustice, but the response has been disproportionate and irrational. They need more focused leadership with more realistic objectives than simply venting outrage and hatred against the police.

 

[FireDragon76]

This is probably true for a lot of people. Regardless of race etc.



But what if they feel that society has ignored or oppressed them throughout their lives? That the whole "social contract" of "if you follow the rules the system will NOT beat you up" has never been experienced that way by them?

We can argue all the live-long day whether YOU believe them, but if they tell you: "I am in pain and feel like your society asks me to stay in line but then goes ahead and kills me on the streets" and that's what they see happening over and over and over...do you understand how your "sensitivities" about law and order could mean less than nothing to them?
.

Being oppressed doesn't give anyone justification to engage in behaviors that show reckless disregard for the rights of others (including those who want "law and order"). You cannot demand respect and dignity for yourself while denying it for others.

The problem with BLM is the lack of a leadership rooted in real ethics, unlike the 1960's civil rights movement.

 

[Ana the Ist]

But what if they feel that society has ignored or oppressed them throughout their lives? That the whole "social contract" of "if you follow the rules the system will NOT beat you up" has never been experienced that way by them?

I read Rousseau's The Social Contract....and to be honest, I don't think it says what you think it says.

I don't recall any government claiming that law enforcement will be perfect or free of mistakes.

 

[rjs330]

Interesting! Thanks for passing that along! So now the BIG question: why do so many black people protest? Do you think they didn't get a chance to see this video?

Probably the best thing YOU can do right NOW is to send this to all black people so they know!

Now that we know racism is over I guess it's all good now! Thanks for saving us!

So, once again, I'm not saying this. I'm no one's savior.

The black man only needed the white man twice to help him in this country. Once during the civil war. And once during the civil rights movement. In both cases they couldn't do it on their own due to the circumstances.

But now the black man doesn't need the white man coming to his rescue. To think that they cannot do it without our help is to diminish them. It was Lynden Johnson a Democrat that started the process to try and keep the black man down. All the while telling them they needed the strong white Democrats to help them. They were the only ones who cared. I believe he said they would keep the blacks voting for them for the next 200 years.

The black man doesn't need you to save him. He doesn't need you telling him he cannot succeed cause the odds are so stacked against them. They need us to stand up and tell them they can. If you ask me if there has been any oppression it's been done by those telling them they have no chance and are terrible victims of an oppressive society.

They need people like this young man or this guy.

 

[rjs330]

I found a bunch more videos posted by black people sharing they are not oppressed. Unfortunately due to the language I couldn't post them.

The OP is spot on in questioning why. There is something happening and I become more convinced that too many white liberals and too many black liberals have been telling them that they are oppressed and that the spearhead of that oppression is the police.

I've seen it on these forums with the claims that just the fact that a white officer kills a black man is evidence that the cop killed the guy solely because he's black.

 

[disciple Clint]

This is probably true for a lot of people. Regardless of race etc.



But what if they feel that society has ignored or oppressed them throughout their lives? That the whole "social contract" of "if you follow the rules the system will NOT beat you up" has never been experienced that way by them?

We can argue all the live-long day whether YOU believe them, but if they tell you: "I am in pain and feel like your society asks me to stay in line but then goes ahead and kills me on the streets" and that's what they see happening over and over and over...do you understand how your "sensitivities" about law and order could mean less than nothing to them?



We see that a lot among American Evangelicals who feel that they are being victimized by not being allowed to force their religious beliefs on others. But to their credit they do not break windows and steal. They do the proper thing in a democracy: they vote for the strong-man who promises them to support their casus belli and they help usher in the decimation of the foundational concept of "plurality" in our nation. It's so much more civilized than breaking glass and burning things.



...well, they probably also listen when people call then names like "animals" and "thugs" most of their lives, and they have difficulty being "successful" in jobs they are frozen out of systematically.



So how well has this approach of simply telling people they are bad people and everything they fail to achieve is their fault been over the past several decades in regards to race relations in the US?

I mean, by all means, keep trying! It's got to bear fruit SOMETIME.

excuses, everyone has them, and then there is the rare individual who elects to make something out of themselves regardless of the disadvantages they may face. There is plenty of evidence that we can elect to blame others for our situation and stay right where we are or we can put our efforts into changing our situation and become what we want to be. The harder you work the luckier you get.

 

[istodolez]

(Removed)

 

[istodolez]

(Removed)

 

[istodolez]

I read Rousseau's The Social Contract....and to be honest, I don't think it says what you think it says.

Then explain it to me.

 

[FenderTL5]

If the negative things you listed dominate the perceptions of police in certain communities and not the positives I listed...it's probably worth figuring out why so we can figure out why and how to change it.

I would suggest it could be because in those communities every interaction with police is negative. An officer is never seen outside of someone dying, being arrested, given a ticket.. etc.
I tend to think the abandonment of community policing, by that I mean cops with feet on the street in the community - as opposed tires on the road driving through is one element.

Secondly, Those communities have been saying that there's disproportionate response for years, and now modern video technology seems to be revealing it to be true.

While I question how "vigorously positive" their views actually are, I would answer your question by saying decades of abuse, dishonesty, and neglect at the hands of the police and other government agencies. I'm a white guy and I wouldn't have taken police at their word without the video.

Agree.