Hakim, Protests, Media and other Opportunists

[rjs330]

So SOME inequity is OK? It's possible to ignore it?



There we go. That was what I was looking for. "Poor black culture".

So it's "them", and the rest of the country doesn't bear any responsibility. We are not responsible for ensuring that our public school systems don't crumble, etc.



Why? If it's their "culture" in your estimate why would you feel bad for them?



But, again, if it's their "culture" you shouldn't have to worry about how hopeless they feel. Presumably it's all their fault (their "culture") so why bother caring at all? But I also see the good you are trying to do: trying to show them the way. They can learn something from our culture. How to succeed.



Well, if a criminal was black then it's probably pretty reasonable to assume that any black person "fits the description", so I guess it's OK. And who knows, given their "culture" even if they didn't commit this specific crime, they probably committed some other crime. So "stop and frisk" approaches are also bound to bear some fruit.



They sound like pretty bad people by this picture here. A "poor culture" that "promotes violence, drugs and crime". They have to do a LOT of work to earn success. Maybe they can do so with proper guidance.



Well, at least he was able to escape "their culture" as you note. It is inspiring that some can see how bad their own culture is and escape it. Maybe even find a superior culture.



So long as they realize it's "their culture" that cause their problems.



If only the black community could strive to have a different "culture" they could succeed. We white people have created a culture that is so great that everyone who abandons their own flawed culture can succeed!

It's actually a nice sentiment. Let's hope they can change their culture. We can only help them see the error of their ways so much. Our best ability to teach them of their culture's failures will only get us so far. They have to take the reins.

Like I said, I'm in favor of changing laws so no matter who is breaking the law its equitable. Remember it is ONLY inequitable regarding a specific drug or drugs. It's not across the board. It's not right to say it's racist simply because a certain group happens to partake or sell one particular drug or another. But I am in favor of not having one subset of a particular drug receive harsher sentence over another.

Are you trying to say that black people are wrong? Are they wrong when they point out the facts of their culture? Are they wrong when they talk about pressure of kids towards crime and gangs? I have a black son in law. He has told me what went on in his neighborhood. His brother came to visit him and he spoke to his brother about looking and acting like a thug. He has stated there is a "thug" culture. He told his brother he should not look and behave that way.

Just listen to what blacks are saying. You cannot ignore what blacks are saying. I don't. I dont understand why you ignore what black people are saying? I just don't get it.

There is no doubt that we had a part in the struggles of African Americans. We had slavery, Jim Crow. We had a cause for the blacks in America to struggle and be set back.

But are you saying they have to stay there? Are you saying that the culture the blacks are talking about have no effect on them? I'm trying to understand what you are saying. Culture has no effect? Or that it's white peoples fault they have the culture they do?

If you will agree that there is a black culture that is detrimental to them. I think we can then have a conversation. Because it's what AFRICAN AMERICANS are saying, not just some white dude on a forum.

 

[rjs330]

So SOME inequity is OK? It's possible to ignore it?



There we go. That was what I was looking for. "Poor black culture".

So it's "them", and the rest of the country doesn't bear any responsibility. We are not responsible for ensuring that our public school systems don't crumble, etc.



Why? If it's their "culture" in your estimate why would you feel bad for them?



But, again, if it's their "culture" you shouldn't have to worry about how hopeless they feel. Presumably it's all their fault (their "culture") so why bother caring at all? But I also see the good you are trying to do: trying to show them the way. They can learn something from our culture. How to succeed.



Well, if a criminal was black then it's probably pretty reasonable to assume that any black person "fits the description", so I guess it's OK. And who knows, given their "culture" even if they didn't commit this specific crime, they probably committed some other crime. So "stop and frisk" approaches are also bound to bear some fruit.



They sound like pretty bad people by this picture here. A "poor culture" that "promotes violence, drugs and crime". They have to do a LOT of work to earn success. Maybe they can do so with proper guidance.



Well, at least he was able to escape "their culture" as you note. It is inspiring that some can see how bad their own culture is and escape it. Maybe even find a superior culture.



So long as they realize it's "their culture" that cause their problems.



If only the black community could strive to have a different "culture" they could succeed. We white people have created a culture that is so great that everyone who abandons their own flawed culture can succeed!

It's actually a nice sentiment. Let's hope they can change their culture. We can only help them see the error of their ways so much. Our best ability to teach them of their culture's failures will only get us so far. They have to take the reins.

I said nothing about white culture. I'm not sure where you got that.

Your post is riddled with sarcasm which tells me you are not at all interested in having a real conversation.

 

[istodolez]

Like I said, I'm in favor of changing laws so no matter who is breaking the law its equitable. Remember it is ONLY inequitable regarding a specific drug or drugs. It's not across the board.

I don't believe it is such a limited scope problem as you seem to. Mainly because there are a ton of studies showing a systemic difference.

Report to the United Nations on Racial Disparities in the U.S. Criminal Justice System | The Sentencing Project

https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2413&context=articles

I'm sure it brings you comfort that you can marginalize the data or parse it down to some specific sub-sub-sub topic. But clearly people around the country are more concerned than you are.

If you will agree that there is a black culture that is detrimental to them.

I totally understand your point. Folks in my parents' generation in the 1970's also alerted me to what "they" do when you let them have public housing or try to make things better for them.

 

[istodolez]

I said nothing about white culture. I'm not sure where you got that.

Oh, sorry, what "culture" should the Black people model their "good" behavior on?

Your post is riddled with sarcasm which tells me you are not at all interested in having a real conversation.

Oh, I'm so sorry!

 

[rjs330]

Oh, sorry, what "culture" should the Black people model their "good" behavior on?



Oh, I'm so sorry!

Perhaps this will help.

Or this

 

[istodolez]

Perhaps this will help.

I'm so sorry, but I'm simply not going to watch your favorite videos.

You already clearly outlined what the problem is (their culture). I think your work is through! Now if only the problems would be solved now.

 

[rjs330]

Oh, sorry, what "culture" should th

I'm so sorry, but I'm simply not going to watch your favorite videos.

You already clearly outlined what the problem is (their culture). I think your work is through! Now if only the problems would be solved now.

I see you are not really interested in problem solving then. Cause those are black Americans who are offering ideas how to solve the real issues. Cause so far I haven't heard anything from you in how to solve the real problems.

I've already said I agree with you on drug sentencing. But I am wondering how that will solve the other issues mentioned by the black men in the videos I've posted. Will fixing drug sentencing reduce crime and the homicides, assaults, robberies and other violence in the black community? Will that fix the school and education issues? Will that fix the fatherless families? Because those father's who got too much time weren't being fathers in the first place.

 

[istodolez]

I see you are not really interested in problem solving then.

Well that's illogical! I simply don't see YOUR interpretation as a route to a solution. The fact that I find your position of little merit doesn't mean I'm not interested in solutions. I have been attempting to live my "solutions" for a while now!

I've already said I agree with you on drug sentencing.

And I remain onconvinced that this is narrow enough to simply "ignore" as a serious case of racial bias in sentencing. And I am not entirely convinced that sentencing bias ONLY relates to a narrow band of crimes.

 

[rjs330]

Well that's illogical! I simply don't see YOUR interpretation as a route to a solution. The fact that I find your position of little merit doesn't mean I'm not interested in solutions. I have been attempting to live my "solutions" for a while now!



And I remain onconvinced that this is narrow enough to simply "ignore" as a serious case of racial bias in sentencing. And I am not entirely convinced that sentencing bias ONLY relates to a narrow band of crimes.

Well let's just say then that they are not okay? Let's just say that blacks as a whole get more severe sentences than whites do even when all things are exactly equal. And let's say that gets fixed.

How does that prevent 6% of the population from committing 50% if the violent crime? How does that make black father's better father's. How does that make education a priority? How does that get rid of gangs, violence and crime and fatherless homes?

 

[istodolez]

Well let's just say then that they are not okay? Let's just say that blacks as a whole get more severe sentences than whites do even when all things are exactly equal. And let's say that gets fixed.

Excellent.

I'm all for that. Let's get on it!

 

[rjs330]

Excellent.

I'm all for that. Let's get on it!

Great now how does that fix the crime and fatherless issues?

 

[istodolez]

Great now how does that fix the crime and fatherless issues?

By telling them they are bad and they should change things.

 

[rjs330]

By telling them they are bad and they should change things.

That doesn't answer my question. Do you mean counseling in jail? Counseling out of jail? Both?
I think they know they did wrong because they are in jail. I still don't know how that prevents them from committing the crimes.

How does that help 50% of black kids living with a solo mom? How does that solve 6% of the population committing 50% if the violent crime? How does that help black males go to school and get and education? How does that help?

 

[istodolez]

That doesn't answer my question.

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought that was what you normally proposed to deal with these problems. That's literally all I've seen you say. It's THEIR problem, THEIR culture, etc.

 

[rjs330]

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought that was what you normally proposed to deal with these problems. That's literally all I've seen you say. It's THEIR problem, THEIR culture, etc.

I simply reiterated what other black people were saying. If I have black people explaining to me what is happening in their culture and what they believe needs to be changed I believe them.

It's interesting to me though on another note that black people can tell me what is wrong with white people, but how dare white people say anything about black people. We hear every day what's wrong with us and that is okay. We get to be told and preached to about our faults and told how we need to change this or that about us white folks. But then I say something about what blacks might need to work on and suddenly that's completely unacceptable. How dare I utter a single word. Shame on me and all my whiteness. Umm... Psst... Don't tell anyone but that's what black people are telling me that needs to be fixed in their culture. I didn't make it up out of thin air cause I know everything about it. I don't. But I do believe they have a better handle on things than I do.

Trust me in this, but I am well aware I have been told I have no right to say anything. Cause I'm white. They aren't going to listen to me. That's what I've been telling you. They shouldn't be listening to me OR to you. They don't need the white man trying to save them. And quite frankly that's what you are trying to do. Of course under the guise of "let me help you." The white man is going to help you succeed cause you can't do it on your own. We need to give you all kinds of stuff just so you can make it.

You know what there are a lot of black people that have answers for their own folks. They don't need mine and they don't need yours.

I would like to see some things done to help the poor in general whether they be black or white. Things that are will really help them out of poverty. And help them stay out.

 

[istodolez]

It's interesting to me though on another note that black people can tell me what is wrong with white people, but how dare white people say anything about black people. We hear every day what's wrong with us and that is okay.

This is something I like to think of as a skill one develops when one grows up. As a white person I am in no way offended when black people us derogatory terms for white people (honky, cracker, etc.) and I'm in no way offended if they want to tell me what is wrong with white "culture". You know why? Because I'm lucky to be born white in the USA. I recognize all the benefits I got that I never earned just because I was white. Sure I worked hard to get where I am, but there was a lot that I never even had to deal with because I was white.

So I don't get bent because those who have less than I do want to say unappealing things about me.

If anything it actually helps me understand that I often take those advantages for granted! It helps kind of wake me up that I might need to work harder to ensure that the benefits I get can be made available to others.

Again, I call it "growing up" and "being an adult".

We get to be told and preached to about our faults

You're a Christian right? You don't ever recall hearing anything about "original sin" or man's fallen nature in any of your pastors' sermons? That's weird if you don't.

and told how we need to change this or that about us white folks. But then I say something about what blacks might need to work on and suddenly that's completely unacceptable.

There is something called "power dynamics" or even "context". But I won't bore you with that.

How dare I utter a single word.

Yeah, I'm going to give you a little hint here, speaking as one white dude to another: you shouldn't give in to any temptation to say anything about reverse racism or whatever you want to go on about because it kind of embarrasses the rest of us white guys. I mean it just looks unseemly and petty. But that's just my 2 cents.

That's what I've been telling you.

Well, to be fair I'm NOT the one telling them their "culture" is somehow fundamentally messed up explaining the systemic differences in median income. I'm not telling them what they need to do to fix their problems.

But I DO like the points you raise about how they don't need a "white savior". But what they DO need is us white folks being less racist or allowing inherently racist systems to continue. (And I understand you don't believe racism by whites exist but I don't really care what you believe).

I would like to see some things done to help the poor in general whether they be black or white. Things that are will really help them out of poverty. And help them stay out.

On that we both firmly believe. Were you glad when the ACA was enacted to ensure more Americans could have access to affordable healthcare? Were you like me and actually wanted the Public Option or even moreso: Single Payer? Are you, like me, happy to pay more in property taxes to support and improve schools even if you don't have kids in them? Are you like me and want expanded food stamp programs to help eliminate the rampant food insecurity that is hitting our nation more than is seemly for the richest nation on earth?

Sounds like we probably agree on a lot of things if that's the case.

 

[rjs330]

This is something I like to think of as a skill one develops when one grows up. As a white person I am in no way offended when black people us derogatory terms for white people (honky, cracker, etc.) and I'm in no way offended if they want to tell me what is wrong with white "culture". You know why? Because I'm lucky to be born white in the USA. I recognize all the benefits I got that I never earned just because I was white. Sure I worked hard to get where I am, but there was a lot that I never even had to deal with because I was white.

So I don't get bent because those who have less than I do want to say unappealing things about me.

If anything it actually helps me understand that I often take those advantages for granted! It helps kind of wake me up that I might need to work harder to ensure that the benefits I get can be made available to others.

Again, I call it "growing up" and "being an adult".



You're a Christian right? You don't ever recall hearing anything about "original sin" or man's fallen nature in any of your pastors' sermons? That's weird if you don't.



There is something called "power dynamics" or even "context". But I won't bore you with that.



Yeah, I'm going to give you a little hint here, speaking as one white dude to another: you shouldn't give in to any temptation to say anything about reverse racism or whatever you want to go on about because it kind of embarrasses the rest of us white guys. I mean it just looks unseemly and petty. But that's just my 2 cents.



Well, to be fair I'm NOT the one telling them their "culture" is somehow fundamentally messed up explaining the systemic differences in median income. I'm not telling them what they need to do to fix their problems.

But I DO like the points you raise about how they don't need a "white savior". But what they DO need is us white folks being less racist or allowing inherently racist systems to continue. (And I understand you don't believe racism by whites exist but I don't really care what you believe).



On that we both firmly believe. Were you glad when the ACA was enacted to ensure more Americans could have access to affordable healthcare? Were you like me and actually wanted the Public Option or even moreso: Single Payer? Are you, like me, happy to pay more in property taxes to support and improve schools even if you don't have kids in them? Are you like me and want expanded food stamp programs to help eliminate the rampant food insecurity that is hitting our nation more than is seemly for the richest nation on earth?

Sounds like we probably agree on a lot of things if that's the case.

So are you saying the black community is not grown up? You are all grown up and have good skills, that's great. But then why can't you say anything about black people to black people? Is it because they aren't grown up? They haven't learned the skills? What is it?

It's just an interesting thought that they can say whatever they like about how we can improve, but we can't say anything at all on how they can improve. I just find it interesting. And by your logic they haven't grown up and become adults. That's your argument?

You got where you are not because you are white. You got there cause you worked for it. African Americans can do the same thing these days.

I can take messages from my pastor about my need to work on this or that cause it's actually from the Bible which is God's word. We all have original sin and none of us is considered less sinful or more sinful because of our skin color. We are all equally sinful in the eyes of God. And all believers are equally saved in the eyes of God. I am not more or less saved just because I am white. My black brother is not more or less saved because he's black.

The left is preaching at me only because of my skin color. Not because of my behavior. If I was a member of a white supremacist group or I was simply claiming blacks were inferior cause they are black or exhibited racist behavior then i would deserve to be told about my sins. But just to be told about all my whiteness and how the color of my skin makes me racist or bad is just stupid.

You make a typical point that many of the left do. Which is an all or nothing point. I wonder if it's deliberate? You said I don't believe white racism exists. Where on earth did I ever say that? That statement is insulting. I could find all kinds of my posts where I said the exact opposite of what you said I believe. But let me be very clear, so we don't have to revisit this. There is racism. There are racist white people. There are white people who think black people are inferior simply because of their skin color. There are white people who don't believe whites and blacks shouldn't marry or live in the same community. The KKK still exists and there are other white supremacist organizations besides them. Hopefully that helps you understand what I believe.

I don't know who "us" is. Do you just mean those that believe in white fragility? Because I believe there are a LOT of white people who recognize that there is reverse racism. Telling white people they are bad cause they are white is nothing but reverse racism. White shaming is reverse racism by claiming whites are bad.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost...ity-training-is-all-about-feeding-racism/amp/

 

[istodolez]

So are you saying the black community is not grown up?

No. I'm not talking about the black community.

 

[rjs330]

No. I'm not talking about the black community.

So if whites respond that way they are not adults or grown up. But if blacks respond that why they are grown up and adults?

 

[istodolez]

So if whites respond that way they are not adults or grown up. But if blacks respond that why they are grown up and adults?

I'm saying that for those of us who have a huge number of advantages in this society it is childish and silly to complain that those who have less than us might wish to call us something unpleasant from time to time.

Imagine if I, with my PhD were to get bent because some grade schooler called me "dumb"? Would I look like an adult if I were to stick out my tongue and respond with "NO, YOU'RE dumb! A dumby dumb-dumb!"

Is that clear enough for you?