Hagar question ...

chunkofcoal

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Why was she the first to name God?
I thought that was an interesting question! I often look around in Jewish sources when I have a question about something in the Old Testament. So from what I found, Hagar is the only person in the Bible, male or female, to give God a name.
Also "Cast out alone in the desert Hagar discovers, or better yet is discovered, by a God who regards the unregarded, who remembers those others have forgotten." (Rabbi Shai Held)
And Rabbi Aybu says the name means: "you identify with the embarrassment of those who have been insulted and humiliated." (Genesis Rabba 45).

As to why she was the first and only to give God a name, I'll have to do some more praying pondering and studying about that. I do remember reading a point that Sarah/Sarai was the first person God, stood up for, or defended, in the Bible -
(Gen 12:17 And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.)
So maybe there is a deeper lesson in these two stories? Thank you for asking the question - it gave me a direction to study for the day!:oldthumbsup:
 
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Aseyesee

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:oldthumbsup:
I thought that was an interesting question! I often look around in Jewish sources when I have a question about something in the Old Testament. So from what I found, Hagar is the only person in the Bible, male or female, to give God a name.
Also "Cast out alone in the desert Hagar discovers, or better yet is discovered, by a God who regards the unregarded, who remembers those others have forgotten." (Rabbi Shai Held)
And Rabbi Aybu says the name means: "you identify with the embarrassment of those who have been insulted and humiliated." (Genesis Rabba 45).

As to why she was the first and only to give God a name, I'll have to do some more praying pondering and studying about that. I do remember reading a point that Sarah/Sarai was the first person God, stood up for, or defended, in the Bible -
(Gen 12:17 And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.)
So maybe there is a deeper lesson in these two stories? Thank you for asking the question - it gave me a direction to study for the day!:oldthumbsup:

Refreshing input ... can't wait for what follows ...
 
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Noxot

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Hagar in one picture is the labor of our soul, in relationship to the son we are, another form of Adam's wife.

Theres not much difference between saying Hagar named god, and don't eat of that tree ...


he looked and she looked, they are at one.

I see hagar as a supreme symbol because she was the only one in the bible to name God and her own name might mean "flight" or it is an unknown egyptian name... which has great significance because of how God gives us a new name that he knows and we know but it is a secret from all others. meanwhile sarai at that point has a filthy name - "dominative".

but the popular people and ways of the world always end up being the most esteemed to the world meanwhile Christ is despised and rejected just like hagar is to this day even though God chooses her first because she was the first to have a child and she was not old but she was young. and being old (sarai) is a symbol of spiritual weakness and frailty while being young is a symbol of Christ-health.


Gen 16:13-14 (KJV)
And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me? Wherefore the well was called Beerlahairoi; behold, it is between Kadesh and Bered.


kadesh means sanctuary and bered means hail which to me sounds like a blessing and a curse. for hail would seem like divine punishment but I see it in the higher sense of what I call divine fury or intense consuming fire love. and in a higher sense it is a twofold blessing that flesh can not receive because hail comes from above but is harsh to the creatures and crops and yet all things that come from heaven are good. Beerlahairoi means well of a living (One) my Seer. parts of the verses here appears confusing to the translators so it's hard to tell the exact meaning. but to me I see the well of a living as the entering into the kingdom because it is the life and the seeing part as the "seeing the kingdom"

below are other translations, interesting. seeing the back of God who says to follow him is a great sign and she seems to be seeing that everything is of order. you can not see the face of God and live because it would be like you are opposing him but to see his back means you follow him. then again when you see the face of God you die and live, for it's God face. and for us to behold Gods back is good for that too is God and it denotes our relationship with him, one of trust, because a king of humans always has his back straight up against a wall for fear of attack. but God is not fearful, he loves his beloved. one more thought is that seeing a face you might be looking into a mirror but seeing a back you see an other. 'even here have I looked behind my beholder?" sounds like divine union to a crazy degree and it fits because she was the ONLY person to have given God a name in the bible...:

Gen 16:13 (YLT)
And she calleth the name of Jehovah who is speaking unto her, `Thou art , O God, my beholder;' for she said, `Even here have I looked behind my beholder?'

Genesis 16:13 New International Version (NIV)
She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen[a] the One who sees me.”

a - Or seen the back of

Gen 16:13 (SLT)
And she will call the name of Jehovah, having spoken to her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Here also I looked after him seeing me.

Gen 16:13 (ESV2011)
So she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, “You are a God of seeing,”4 for she said, “Truly here I have seen him who looks after me.”5
4 - Or You are a God who sees me
5 - Hebrew Have I really seen him here who sees me? or Would I have looked here for the one who sees me?

Gen 16:13 (ASV)

And she called the name of Jehovah that spake unto her 4, Thou art 5 a God that seeth: for she said, Have I even here looked after him that seeth me?
4 - Or, Thou God seest me
5 - Hebrew: El roi, that is, God of seeing.


Gen 16:13 (HCSB)


So she called the LORD who spoke to her: The God Who Sees
8 , for she said, “In this place, have I actually seen the One who sees me? ” 9
8 - 16:13 Lit her: You God Who Sees
9 - 16:13 Hb obscure

Gen 16:13 (NET)
So Hagar named the LORD who spoke to her, “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “Here I have seen one who sees me!”


here in the 13th verse it is fit that a person be the only one in the entire bible to name God. for most are content to be named by God and they do not dare to name God out of love just as God named her out of love. of course 13 is one of the holiest of numbers. it means: my father, one, void, and love. and is also a number representing the Trinity as 1 and 3. the void is one of the words in the beginning of the bible, the "without form and void" and thus it is tied to that mystery and it is in relation to being named by God but of also naming God but remaining free because a formlessness and a void are not creations and so denote a deeper part of reality, the freedom of the Spirit.

Gen 16:7 (YLT)
And a messenger of Jehovah findeth her by the fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur,

I imagine that the first thing he saw was her back because she was probably busying herself by the fountain of water. shur means, though it is unclear to me what the fullness of the meaning is, I have a vague sense because it almost seems related to travel but I won't say anything because i'm not sure, I just know that travelling with God is one of my main themes and to form a wall behind such just means our paths make walls.

H7791 שׁוּר shuwr (shoor) n-m.
1. a wall (as going about)

Gen 16:16 (YLT)
and Abram is a son of eighty and six years in Hagar's bearing Ishmael to Abram.


abram, whos name means "high father", was 86 years old when hagar gave birth to "God will hear" aka ishmael. I was born in 1986. anyways, 86 is a very holy number just as 13 is a very holy number. 86 is the number for Elohim. you can see the holiness of this number here if you want The Number 86 - Elohim
 
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Noxot

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though the symbols of what I tried to talk about are repeated in the bible in other ways, such as when a certain person said to not touch the tree, for she is Gods beloved and is holy and what she commands is Gods command as well seeing that she is married to God and so the twos commands could not be separated one from another.

this is the love that I know with God.
 
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chunkofcoal

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he looked and she looked, they are at one.

I see hagar as a supreme symbol because she was the only one in the bible to name God and her own name might mean "flight" or it is an unknown egyptian name... which has great significance because of how God gives us a new name that he knows and we know but it is a secret from all others. meanwhile sarai at that point has a filthy name - "dominative".

but the popular people and ways of the world always end up being the most esteemed to the world meanwhile Christ is despised and rejected just like hagar is to this day even though God chooses her first because she was the first to have a child and she was not old but she was young. and being old (sarai) is a symbol of spiritual weakness and frailty while being young is a symbol of Christ-health.

It sounds like you find a lot of meaning in Hagar's story.

But, Sarai didn't have a "filthy name - "domininative"" as you say - Sarai means "my princess". God changed it to "Sarah" which means "Princess."

Sarai/Sarah wasn't a "symbol of spiritual weakness and frailty" -
Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

There is a deeper story behind Sarah being old. She was 'past age', her womb was "dead" but she bore a child. Life came from a "dead" womb. A child came from the "dead".
Gen 21:1-3 And the LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did unto Sarah as he had spoken. (2) For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him. (3) And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, Isaac.

As for Hagar having a child first - God blessed Ishmael, but His covenant was/is with Isaac. -
Gen 17:18-21 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! (19) And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. (20) And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. (21) But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.


 
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mozo41

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to name is to give measure, which causes division of the one inheritance we are by way of a perception gathered from outside of the truth/son we are .... Hagar being a picture of a woman/soul with five husbands who spoke to her true husband by a well of water ....
 
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Aseyesee

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Hagar is Sari’s labor, as Sari is Hagar’s; between heaven and earth truths are reciprocal. The woman’s desire is towards her husband, just as the man cleaves to the woman, a truth of an internal process as much as it is the process of all things.
 
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brinny

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Hello my friend. God was being compassionate to Hagar and her son, for He intended that both should live for His purposes.

As a side note, a stickler for me is that Hagar mocked Sarah when Sarah was unable to bear children.

This did not bode well for Hagar.
 
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Aseyesee

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It sounds like you find a lot of meaning in Hagar's story.

But, Sarai didn't have a "filthy name - "domininative"" as you say - Sarai means "my princess". God changed it to "Sarah" which means "Princess."

Sarai/Sarah wasn't a "symbol of spiritual weakness and frailty" -
Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

There is a deeper story behind Sarah being old. She was 'past age', her womb was "dead" but she bore a child. Life came from a "dead" womb. A child came from the "dead".
Gen 21:1-3 And the LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did unto Sarah as he had spoken. (2) For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him. (3) And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, Isaac.

As for Hagar having a child first - God blessed Ishmael, but His covenant was/is with Isaac. -
Gen 17:18-21 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! (19) And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. (20) And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. (21) But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

Story's and how they apply to the process in us become more and more refined/defined, and elusive at the same time (so to speak), like an equation that terminates with infinity.

Abram's first born speaks to the kingdom (that suffers violence, and the violent who take it by force/as opposed to one freely given/appointed), just as his second son does in terms that are relative to our own soul that gives us the son we are.

Abraham's son is not of his country, kindred, or his father's house, and Sari the equivalent of Eve, or a Hagar, as the mountain that produces an Ishmael, yet the law of this son is good, yet even this must be departed from as a truth that makes the world a wilderness.
 
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Aseyesee

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Hello my friend. God was being compassionate to Hagar and her son, for He intended that both should live for His purposes.

As a side note, a stickler for me is that Hagar mocked Sarah when Sarah was unable to bear children.

This did not bode well for Hagar.

I agree, and also it is a stickler for me as well,;but the truth that lies in the son is not a truth of the mother (as one who does the mocking).
 
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brinny

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I agree, and also it is a stickler for me as well,;but the truth that lies in the son is not a truth of the mother (as one who does the mocking).

Hagar's legacy, and her son's legacy, was to be very different than Sarah's. God preserved Hagar and her son, for a specific reason, but Jesus the Christ, His only begotten Son, was to come from Sarah's and Abraham's lineage.
 
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Aseyesee

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Hagar's legacy, and her son's legacy, was to be very different than Sarah's. God preserved Hagar and her son, for a specific reason, but Jesus the Christ, His only begotten Son, was to come from Sarah's and Abraham's lineage.

Hagars son is a picture of Israel when they were in the wilderness, confusion they took with them which in the end the land spewed out.

Hagar never mocks Sarah, instead one son mocks the other, which this mentality that begins in Adam hinders us in a way that prevents us from remaining in the house forever, being a duality, or an eye not single, which relates to the soul as does an only begotten does to spirit (the feminie and masculine view of the same one truth) which plays out inccesantly through out scripture).
 
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brinny

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Hagar s sin is a picture of Israel when they were in the wilderness, confusion they took with them which in the the land spewed out.

Hagar never mocks Sarah, instead one son mocks the other, which this mentality that begins with Adam hinders us in a way that prevents us from remaining in the house forever, being a duality, or an eye not single, which relates to the soul as does an only begotten does to spirit (the feminie and masculine view of the same one truth) which plays out inccesantly through out scripture).

Aah, my friend, but Hagar was contemptuous of Sarah when Sarah was unable to bear children, and Hagar herself was. Regarding Hagar's son, if he was mocking Isaac, it was because he was taught this or under the impression that it was a "norm" because contempt for Isaac and his mother was so prevalent and he was acting out what he heard, etc.

Hagar was never a "picture" or a representative of Israel. Only the lineage of Christ up through Jacob -and beyond (who was re-named "Israel") has ever been representative or a "picture" of Israel.
 
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Aseyesee

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Aah, my friend, but Hagar was contemptuous of Sarah when Sarah was unable to bear children, and Hagar herself was. Regarding Hagar's son, if he was mocking Isaac, it was because he was taught this or under the impression that it was a "norm" because contempt for Isaac and his mother was so prevalent and he was acting out what he heard, etc.

Hagar was never a "picture" or a representative of Israel. Only the lineage of Christ up through Jacob -and beyond (who was re-named "Israel") has ever been representative or a "picture" of Israel.

Sari becomes vile to her (different word then mocking), and now ... I didn't say Hagar was Israel, but the mother of a son in relationship to bondage, one not born free, which both women speak to the cities of these respective truths that speak to our soul.

And Sarah laughed (mocked God as Ishmael did to Isaac ) ... was Abraham's Adam and Eve moment ...

I am very nickpicidy ...:D
 
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brinny

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Sari becomes vile to her (different word then mocking), and now ... I didn't say Hagar was Israel, but the mother of a son in relationship to bondage, one not born free, which both women speak to the cities of these respective truths that speak to our soul.

And Sarah laughed (mocked God as Ishmael did to Isaac ) ... was Abraham's Adam and Eve moment ...

I am very nickpicidy ...:D

LOL! No problem my friend, for so am i.

Sarah did not mock God. And the "vile" thing? Hagar should've counted her blessings that she was even allowed to be in that household or anywhere in the vicinity as long as she was (if Sarah became "vile" to Hagar).
 
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Aseyesee

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LOL! No problem my friend, for so am i.

Sarah did not mock God. And the "vile" thing? Hagar should've counted her blessings that she was even allowed to be in that household or anywhere in the vicinity as long as she was (if Sarah became "vile" to Hagar).

I see you despise Hagar like Hagar despised Sari (object lesson), that she was a vile (one of the words this word means in english) person ... the word used in Sarah laughed is the same word used in the mocking Sarah's son.
 
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brinny

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I see you despise Hagar like Hagar despised Sari (object lesson), that she was a vile (one of the words this word means in english) person ... the word used in Sarah laughed is the same word used in the mocking Sarah's son.

No, my friend, i have issues with how she related to and thought about Sarah in the midst of Sarah's heartbreak. Sarah was not mocking God. She was honestly responding to the idea that she would have children well past her child-bearing years. The "vileness" that Hagar felt towards Sarah must have been seeping out in taunting ways and possibly made Sarah's life a living nightmare.

There's a similar story of heartache, with Hannah, and how her "taunters" made her life so nightmarish that Hannah could not eat, etc.
 
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