Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

Der Alte · May 20, 2020

agapelove said:
The flames should be taken as literally as Abraham's bosom. BOTH the Rich Man and Lazarus are in sheol. In death everything is evened out by way of reversal.
Isaiah 40:4 Every valley shall be raised up,
every mountain and hill made low;
the rough ground shall become level,
the rugged places a plain.

Abraham's bosom is literal if one understands what the Jews meant by it. In Jesus' day people did not sit down on a chair facing a table, they reclined on their left elbow with their feet pointing away for the low table.
That is how the woman was able to wash Jesus' feet with with her tears. A woman did not crawl around under a table like we use at the feet of men she did not know.
The position of honor at such a table was "in the bosom" of the host. That is the seat immediately to the right or in front of the host, who in this case would have been Abraham.
In order to look at the host while speaking to him, the guest of honor would lean back placing his head on the breast of the host John 21:20.
"In Abraham's bosom" was a position not a place and certainly not literally in his bosom.
Hope this helps.

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith · May 20, 2020

ClementofA said:
In scripture it often speaks of a - person - going to the grave. Rather than a body. So the issue is whether or not David meant he would join his child in the graveyard or elsewhere. AFAIK he didn't say one way or the other.

As for me, I Will See Your Face In Righteousness;
I Shall Be Satisfied When I Awake In Your Likeness.

• Psalms 17:14

.

ClementofA · May 20, 2020

GirdYourLoins said:
Everyone is given the chance to accept or reject Jesus. That includes unborn babies. Any that dont get the chance in this life are given the opportunity in Hades/I always remember a sermon years ago that taught on this so have taken an interest in the subject since (I dont hold that all sermons are infallible as they are given by people). The book/film "Heaven is for Real" included that the boy met his miscarried sister he didnt know about in heaven. This fits with my belief that unborn babies would be given the opportunity to accept Jesus and go to heaven.

I enjoyed that film.

ClementofA · May 20, 2020

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:
As for me, I Will See Your Face In Righteousness;
I Shall Be Satisfied When I Awake In Your Likeness.

• Psalms 17:14

.

Different context, so not relevant to the subject.

Basil the Great · May 20, 2020

ClementofA said:
What happens to murdered aborted babies?

If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven

Church Father Augustine taught that the unbaptized babies cannot enter the gates of Heaven, but rather go to Limbo, often called the Outer Edge of Hell. I doubt that he was correct in his teaching, but I guess it is a possibility.

ClementofA · May 20, 2020

Der Alte said:
Abraham's bosom is literal if one understands what the Jews meant by it. In Jesus' day people did not sit down on a chair facing a table, they reclined on their left elbow with their feet pointing away for the low table.
That is how the woman was able to wash Jesus' feet with with her tears. A woman did not crawl around under a table like we use at the feet of men she did not know.
The position of honor at such a table was "in the bosom" of the host. That is the seat immediately to the right or in front of the host, who in this case would have been Abraham.
In order to look at the host while speaking to him, the guest of honor would lean back placing his head on the breast of the host John 21:20.
"In Abraham's bosom" was a position not a place and certainly not literally in his bosom.
Hope this helps.

Source? Your "irrefutable" Jewish Encyclopedia?

agapelove · May 20, 2020

Der Alte said:
"In Abraham's bosom" was a position not a place and certainly not literally in his bosom.
Hope this helps.

If we can take "Abraham's bosom" as a figure of speech then we can take the flames as a figure of speech as well.

Basil the Great · May 20, 2020

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:
“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side.
The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, WHERE HE WAS IN TORMENT, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue,
Because I AM IN AGONY IN THIS FIRE.’ “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us. “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers.
Let Him Warn Them, So That They Will Not Also Come TO THIS PLACE OF TORMENT.’

• Luke 16:19-28

Some people say that Jesus was speaking to people using Parables when He was mentioning Hades, But He also mentions Hades when He wasn't speaking in parables :

And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven ? No, you will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty deeds done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
• Matthew 11:23

And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church,
and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
• Matthew 16:18

.

Pope John Paul II, now a canonized saint in the Catholic Church, taught that the New Testament's descriptions of torment in Hell/Hades were not meant to be taken literally. We can only hope that he was correct.

ClementofA · May 20, 2020

Basil the Great said:
Church Father Augustine taught that the unbaptized babies cannot enter the gates of Heaven, but rather go to Limbo, often called the Outer Edge of Hell. I doubt that he was correct in his teaching, but I guess it is a possibility.

Basil the Great said:
I have never heard of anyone who thinks that aborted babies will burn forever. You are probably referring to Augustine's position, widely held among Catholics until recently, though never definitively taught by the Catholic Church, that the unbaptized babies go to Limbo. Early Church Father Augustine taught that Limbo was not a bad place, but still not equal to Heaven. Limbo has often been referred to as the Outer Edge of Hell, but that description seems misleading, as it supposedly was/is not a place of torture or torment, but rather a place of natural happiness.

According to one source Augustine believed re the pains of endless hell that those "of children dying unbaptized will be 'most mild of all'; but for all the chastisement will be eternal" (Early Christian Doctrines, J.N.D. Kelly, p.485).

Full text of "103911481-J-N-D-Kelly-Early-Christian-Doctrines.pdf (PDFy mirror)"

Another source states:

"16. In countering Pelagius, Augustine was led to state that infants who die without Baptism are consigned to hell.[24] "

The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptised

Perhaps there are others who say otherwise.

Noxot · May 20, 2020

If deceptive Spirits can capture your cold and cruel Hearts enough you may very well find that they will be your tormentors after you are dead because this is what you think God is like. But those that have a great love to torture others can exist in no other place than in hell. Satan caused Jesus to be tortured and crucified though God used it to draw crude souls to him. Hell loves to torture, it is incompatible with the kingdom of heaven. demons suffer when they are not allowed to torture others because they take pleasure in it so much that without doing it they feel horrible.

Hell Sees God as a torturer. because they have rejected goodness and Truth all that they can know of God are lies and evils to the degree that they do reject the true image of God. So spirit is different kinds of states of being. This is why it is so deadly to be cut off from God, who is our very life. And so hell last as long as we close ourselves off from the Divine truth and the divine love.

God is the demons Tormentor. they behold what they are because God is the truth. But God's intentions are to help them, not to let them remain in their evil and insane state. But they flee from the truth because they cannot bear themselves and try to hide in their evils to their own and others detriment.

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith · May 20, 2020

Noxot said:
those that believe that God Wills for others to be tortured have a very bad understanding of God and are already accepting doctrines of demons

he himself shall also drink of the wine of The Wrath Of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be Tormented With Fire And Brimstone In The Presence Of The Holy Angels And In The Presence Of The Lamb.

• Revelation 14:10

.

Basil the Great · May 20, 2020

Even if the Catholic Church never definitively taught that Limbo is the fate of the unbaptized babies and not Heaven, this must have been the commonly understood belief. Why? The Catholic Church in Ireland apologized recently for refusing to allow the unbaptized babies to be buried next to their parents in hallowed ground, but rather had them buried in sections of ground that were not part of the actual Catholic cemeteries.

ClementofA · May 20, 2020

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:
he himself shall also drink of the wine of The Wrath Of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be Tormented With Fire And Brimstone In The Presence Of The Holy Angels And In The Presence Of The Lamb.

• Revelation 14:10

.

Literal fire or figurative?

Tormented by God, or due to their sinfullness & from being in His holy presence?

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith · May 20, 2020

ClementofA said:
Different context, so not relevant to the subject.

The context is showing Where David will go after death :

But now he is dead; why should I fast ? Can I bring him back again ?
I Shall Go To Him, but he shall not return to me."

• 2 Samuel 12:23

As for me, I Will See Your Face In Righteousness;
I Shall Be Satisfied When I Awake In Your Likeness.

• Psalms 17:14

.

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith · May 20, 2020

ClementofA said:
Literal fire or figurative?

Tormented by God, or due to their sinfullness & from being in His holy presence?

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

It probably has both physical and spiritual properties since the devil and his angels are also tormented in the same lake of fire.

.

ClementofA · May 20, 2020

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:
The context is showing Where David will go after death :

But now he is dead; why should I fast ? Can I bring him back again ?
I Shall Go To Him, but he shall not return to me."

• 2 Samuel 12:23

.

The words "Where David will go after death" aren't there in 2 Sam.12:23.

In scripture it often speaks of a - person - going to the grave. Rather than a body. So the issue is whether or not David meant he would join his child in the graveyard or elsewhere. AFAIK he didn't say one way or the other. If not then the verse looks like a - big fail - if you think it's a "proof text" that murdered aborted babies are forced into God's kingdom without a choice & or without being born again, which is required BTW as per John 3.

Noxot · May 20, 2020

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:
he himself shall also drink of the wine of The Wrath Of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be Tormented With Fire And Brimstone In The Presence Of The Holy Angels And In The Presence Of The Lamb.

• Revelation 14:10

.

Yes it is the Harlot that drinks of the wrath of God and she is drunk instead of sober-minded. I too have drank of the wrath of God and so has Jesus. We will all drink of the wrath of God because God cannot suffer evil and he will utterly destroy it all.

Der Alte · May 20, 2020

ClementofA said:
...

ClementofA said:
..Author = me = ClementofA. Wasn't it obvious.

How many semesters of Greek have you had which give you the requisite knowledge of what is/is not a reasonable translation of the Greek?

Context should not be used as a pretext to dismiss what God has plainly stated

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.
Doing that you can make the Bible say all kinds of crazy stuff.

Ignoring the immediate context to promote a preconceived position. Would you say that every believer should go out and build an Ark or was that written specifically for Noah and his family? What was written specifically to disobedient Israel is for but NOT to believers today.

You tried to discredit him similarly in the following thread. He's been reading the Bible in Greek for many years (see post #29 for more on that & his qualifications to translate):

Supposedly reading the Greek for many years does not qualify anyone to translate the Greek. Just another UR-ite writing UR propaganda for other UR-ites with no, zero, none qualifications. Versus a Bible sponsored by a major world denomination.

How about the Early Church Fathers who were universalists?
What are the theoligical biases of the EOB version? Endless tortures?
Would they sell the EOB to the public & get paid if they rendered aionion as eonian?
What spirit motivates them?

Quote some of the ECF and identify which of their works you quote.
Just copy/pasting from a pet UR website "This guy said this, that guy said that and some other guy said something else" is meaningless.
What was the theological bias of any UR-ite who "translated" the NT? We don't even have to ask they have a UR bias and they will "translate" the NT to suit their bias whether they could parse a Greek verb if their life depended on it and don't know an aorist from an apple cart.
Would your guy sell his "translation" to the general public, vice URs, & get paid if they rendered aionion as eonian?
What spirit motivates your guy? Whatever they write will be decidedly UR

"An argument from authority (argumentum ab auctoritate), also called an appeal to authority, or argumentum ad verecundiam, is a form of defeasible[1] argument in which the opinion of an authority on a topic is used as evidence to support an argument. It is well known as a fallacy,..."

Once again you don't know what you are talking about. If you think anything I quoted is "appeal to authority" then everything you quote is doubly so since you have repeatedly demonstrated you cannot support anything you say without quoting some anonymous UR writer.
Something occurred to me while I was returning from lunch today.
In the last 6 months you have posted something you claimed was said by Origen, You claim, eleven [11] times that "Origen spoke about 'life after eternal life?'" or "life beyond after life."
I have corrected you repeatedly but you persist in posting this patently false claim. Therefore I must ask myself if someone repeatedly posts something patently false can we trust anything he says?
Here is what Origen actually said.

Origen Commentary On The Gospel Of John Book Thirteen[1]
(18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, so here the fountain that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
(19) And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life; but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.20[2] Pg. 23
[1] Origen. (1993). Commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13–32. (T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (Vol. 89, pp. 67–69). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press.

Note Origen did NOT say "life after eternal life" or "life beyond eternal life"
In context, Origen said 'the fountain that appears ... leaps into eternal life. And after [leaping into] eternal life, perhaps it [the fountain only] will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life."
There is nothing in any of Origen's writings which says anything about "life after eternal life" for any believers. "Also leap" must refer back to "leap into eternal life" The only thing after eternal life is the father and perhaps the fountain.
If we can get this one irrefutable fact straight we might have some basis for continuing.

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith · May 20, 2020

Noxot said:
Yes it is the Harlot that drinks of the wrath of God and she is drunk instead of sober-minded. I too have drank of the wrath of God and so has Jesus. We will all drink of the wrath of God because God cannot suffer evil and he will utterly destroy it all.

No.

The verse is referring to People Who Take The Mark Of The Beast And Worship The Beast :

Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice,
"If Anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He Shall Be Tormented With Fire And Brimstone In The Presence Of The Holy Angels And In The Presence Of The Lamb.

And the smoke of their Torment ascends Forever And Ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

• Revelation 14:9-11

.

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith · May 20, 2020

ClementofA said:
The words "Where David will go after death" aren't there in 2 Sam.12:23.

David is "Going" to "Where" the child Is.

I Shall Go TO Him .....

• 2 Samuel 12:23

.... I Shall Be Satisfied When I AWAKE In Your Likeness.

• Psalms 17:14

.

Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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