Guns

[Blackguard_]

Oi mate... telly... flat...

I think I smell a Commonwealth rat...

 

[mjmcmillan]

Thinking about these kind of things.....

I visited my brother today-- the one I mentioned earlier shouldn't have any kind of gun. He has read books on hand-to-hand combat and thinks that because he's read these books that he can actually do the stuff he's read. He's never been in a fight, but thinks he can kill somebody. Personally, knowing him as I do, I think there's a pretty good chance he'll be the casualty if he tries something.

I've had some of the same feelings about some of the pro-gun people. How many think, or seem to think, that just having a gun makes you safer? All together too many if the posts I've been reading are any indication. Look, it takes some serious instruction time and some serious time on the range learning your weapon before you're much good with it. You'll spend some money on ammunition down at the range--- don't doubt that for a second. You have to spend some time cleaning and taking the weapon apart and putting it back together again--- it's really the only way you learn the weapon. Then you have to do some really serious soul-searching.

"Do I really have what it takes to take a human life? Why would I do this? What reason would justify downing a man? Even if absolutely justified, can I live with myself after I do this?" These are just some of the questions you need to think on and answer in advance of need. The heat of the moment is no time to suddenly decide you really can't shoot to kill, especially if the bad guy is advancing on you and showing no qualms about killing you because, after all, you're "heeled" and you drew on him first.

Ruckhard, being a cop who has trained with a weapon, can tell you straight that taking a man's life is no light thing. Anybody who's seen close-up battle while in the services can tell you the same thing. Maybe after a while you get battle-hardened if you're in regular firefights, but the first time around has got to be rough on the soul. It's not for nothing we have counselors and chaplains in our military, after all.

The average man doesn't have battle experience, so thinking that having a gun makes you safer is likely to be at least as big a mistake as my brother would make picking a fight with somebody just because he read some books on hand-to-hand combat and he thinks he can do it. It takes something more than reading books, or having a gun to make you safe.

 

[CoSteve]

Their guns are, at best, as dangerous to them as they are to any would be mugger.

I think there are plenty of good points and arguments on both sides, but this one is ridiculous hyperbole. There certainly are situations you can make worse with a weapon of any kind, but as can be seen by the real life experiences of citizen CCW holders here in the states ... AT BEST an attack is averted or defeated, and AT WORST someone uninvolved gets hurt (though that latter is extremely rare). And that's not theory, it's historical fact. Civilian CCW has been in place for well over 20 years in many states, and no problems like that.

In any case ... all of these recent arguments are very much secular opinion and the same as you'll find on any gun bulletin board ... I'm more interested at this board of the biblical/Christian POV.

 

[Sketcher]

Given the nature of most weapons that are realistic for conceal carry a 9mm is a large round. And of course, everyone with a CCW is an expert marksman that will, without fail, make clean head shots.....

This is exactly why John Doe on the bloody street doesn't need to carry a gun. The average CCW permit holder is untrained in proper use of weapons and doesn't put in the time at a range to be a decent shot anyway. Their guns are, at best, as dangerous to them as they are to any would be mugger.

You can solve that problem with one little word - practice.

 

[Ruckhard82]

You can solve that problem with one little word - practice.

If the issue solely revolved around marksmanship, maybe. In a stress situation like that people will sink to the level of their training. Which is, of the average CCW permit holder, absolutely no relevant weapons training. Leaving little more than a frightened child, just one that happens to be wielding a deadly weapon.

 

[Sketcher]

If the issue solely revolved around marksmanship, maybe. In a stress situation like that people will sink to the level of their training. Which is, of the average CCW permit holder, absolutely no relevant weapons training. Leaving little more than a frightened child, just one that happens to be wielding a deadly weapon.

Practice your draw and practice firing. If you're well practiced, you sink to that level of training and drill the perpetrator before he can touch you.

 

[Ruckhard82]

I think there are plenty of good points and arguments on both sides, but this one is ridiculous hyperbole. There certainly are situations you can make worse with a weapon of any kind, but as can be seen by the real life experiences of citizen CCW holders here in the states ... AT BEST an attack is averted or defeated, and AT WORST someone uninvolved gets hurt (though that latter is extremely rare). And that's not theory, it's historical fact. Civilian CCW has been in place for well over 20 years in many states, and no problems like that.

In any case ... all of these recent arguments are very much secular opinion and the same as you'll find on any gun bulletin board ... I'm more interested at this board of the biblical/Christian POV.

Since May of 2007 9 police officers have been killed by CCW permit holders. Of the 200+ people killed by CCW permit holders the majority involve criminal convictions against the shooters. Not to mention a number of high profile murders committed by CCW permit holders. The worst case is not someone uninvolved gets "hurt."

 

[Ruckhard82]

Practice your draw and practice firing. If you're well practiced, you sink to that level of training and drill the perpetrator before he can touch you.

Most civilian ranges do not permit individuals to practice draw firing. Nor does that in any way train a person to use a firearm as a weapon. Let alone prepare them for the stress of the situation. A blinding muzzle flash, the deafening sound of a weapon discharged in an enclose location, or any other reality of using a firearm in the real world.

Tactically concealing weapons makes no sense. There's no deterring factor to a gun that cannot be seen. It puts the weapon in a clumsy location on your person that ensures you will not be able to get to it in a fashion that would actually allow you to respond to a surprise attack. It's beyond pointless to have untrained civilians wandering about the streets with guns hidden in their pants or handbags.

I have yet to see an argument that would outweigh the sheer body count CCW permit holders have piled up......

 

[K9_Trainer]

Compared to just how many gang members who carry and own firearms illegally who have killed cops and other people?

 

[Ruckhard82]

Compared to just how many gang members who carry and own firearms illegally who have killed cops and other people?

Because what we really need is more cross fire.

Are you really going to pursue the notion that creating an arms race between civilians and gang bangers is somehow going to solve problems?

 

[Blackguard_]

Leaving little more than a frightened child,

I guess I owe Macfall kind of an apology. I thought he was engaging in hyperbole when he said "he thinks we little children don't need to carry guns because the paternal god-state is going to take care of it for us."

 

[CoSteve]

Since May of 2007 9 police officers have been killed by CCW permit holders. Of the 200+ people killed by CCW permit holders the majority involve criminal convictions against the shooters. Not to mention a number of high profile murders committed by CCW permit holders. The worst case is not someone uninvolved gets "hurt."

At the core of your argument is that only highly trained police officers can use firearms effectively. The sad statistics you give disprove that, and prove my point that the ability to kill is inherent in the human state and requires little training (which should be obvious to anyone who's studied either history or the Bible). But do they prove that citizen CCW or gun ownership is bad?

Not at all. The fact that the civilian had a license to legally carry a firearm had nothing to do with his illegal actions. i.e. the piece of paper in his wallet didn't matter, he would have had a gun and did what he did anyway. People don't become magically better or worse when they get a license to carry a firearm, or even a badge.

So those murders would have happened anyway. Such as the case in PA where one white supremist shot 3 police officers with an AK47 -- not a concealable weapon, not a weapon you can legally conceal with a CCW -- but 1/3rd of the statistic you state.

People who are going to kill, be their targets cops or otherwise, could care less about facing a potential concealed weapons charge. While some people have murdered with CCW's, overall the murder rate has gone down since legal CCW has spread like wildfire. Probably not because of the CCW, but simply because CCW does one thing and only one thing:

It empowers law abiding citizens (you?) to carry weapons. For non law abiding citizens ... they never waited for a license. And even if they obtain one, it does nothing to make them more murderous.

There are somewhere around 4 million licensed civilians with CCW's in the U.S. The vast, vast majority of them law abiding and yes ... many have saved lives with their licensed weapons. Including the lives of police officers.

Here is a link that gives some details. *kc3.com/self_defense/ officers_peril.htm*. There are quite a few more polices officers helped there than the 9 you list that were murdered. Except in these cases it was the CCW the law abiding civilian had that helped them out, because the law abiding citizen won't carry if it's not legal. The murderer will. Again ... virtually nothing but positive for legal CCW.

This doesn't touch upon the biblical or Christian reaction to carrying a lethal weapon for defense of self and others ... but clearly it's a good and responsible thing to do. If you live in one of the 40 states where it's absolutely allowed, and feel you are a candidate for the responsibility of carrying one and have no religious belief that forbids it ... I highly recommend you get your license, own a firearm, and learn how to use it. Not because you necessarily want to carry on a regular basis, but because it's a good thing to have.

And whether you believe we are post trib or pre trib, the Bible speaks of difficult times to come and it's clear Christians aren't exempt from them. Don't limit your tools unnecesarily.

 

[MehGuy]

At the core of your argument is that only highly trained police officers can use firearms effectively. The sad statistics you give disprove that, and prove my point that the ability to kill is inherent in the human state and requires little training (which should be obvious to anyone who's studied either history or the Bible). But do they prove that citizen CCW or gun ownership is bad?

Not at all. The fact that the civilian had a license to legally carry a firearm had nothing to do with his illegal actions. i.e. the piece of paper in his wallet didn't matter, he would have had a gun and did what he did anyway. People don't become magically better or worse when they get a license to carry a firearm, or even a badge.

So those murders would have happened anyway. Such as the case in PA where one white supremist shot 3 police officers with an AK47 -- not a concealable weapon, not a weapon you can legally conceal with a CCW -- but 1/3rd of the statistic you state.

People who are going to kill, be their targets cops or otherwise, could care less about facing a potential concealed weapons charge. While some people have murdered with CCW's, overall the murder rate has gone down since legal CCW has spread like wildfire. Probably not because of the CCW, but simply because CCW does one thing and only one thing:

It empowers law abiding citizens (you?) to carry weapons. For non law abiding citizens ... they never waited for a license. And even if they obtain one, it does nothing to make them more murderous.

There are somewhere around 4 million licensed civilians with CCW's in the U.S. The vast, vast majority of them law abiding and yes ... many have saved lives with their licensed weapons. Including the lives of police officers.

Here is a link that gives some details. *kc3.com/self_defense/ officers_peril.htm*. There are quite a few more polices officers helped there than the 9 you list that were murdered. Except in these cases it was the CCW the law abiding civilian had that helped them out, because the law abiding citizen won't carry if it's not legal. The murderer will. Again ... virtually nothing but positive for legal CCW.

This doesn't touch upon the biblical or Christian reaction to carrying a lethal weapon for defense of self and others ... but clearly it's a good and responsible thing to do. If you live in one of the 40 states where it's absolutely allowed, and feel you are a candidate for the responsibility of carrying one and have no religious belief that forbids it ... I highly recommend you get your license, own a firearm, and learn how to use it. Not because you necessarily want to carry on a regular basis, but because it's a good thing to have.

And whether you believe we are post trib or pre trib, the Bible speaks of difficult times to come and it's clear Christians aren't exempt from them. Don't limit your tools unnecesarily.

Steve you're scaring me. Don't talk like that.

 

[Im_A]

Here you all go:
Fla. dealership offers free AK-47 for truck buyers - Yahoo! News

 

[mjmcmillan]

Here you all go:
Fla. dealership offers free AK-47 for truck buyers - Yahoo! News

AK-47s???? I thought Fla. pickups came with a shotgun rack and a 'coon dog as standard equipment anyway. I guess they're upgrading the firepower needed for hunting in the backwoods.

 

[Gym]

Because what we really need is more cross fire.

Are you really going to pursue the notion that creating an arms race between civilians and gang bangers is somehow going to solve problems?

I'd much rather put up a fight the next time a gang comes for me than go quietly into the night...
Gangs kill people every day.. mutilate people everyday... yet you'd rather I what? say please or please don't hurt me?
ridiculous

 

[wildthing]

Co Steve you don't scare me at all. I agree with you whole heartedly.

When I was 17 my parents live out in secluded part of a county. It normally took the police between 20 and 30 minutes to get to the home site. Because of the time element dad insited that I qwould have firearms training. we just happen to have a friend that was a Marine small arms train officer. So I was trained by him. I was left home for the weekend my parents had to go out of town on business. The next county over had experince a murder. Before my parent left they reminded me that I knew what to do if someone would break in. That is to get away if I could but if I was connered and had to defend myself to make sure that I would shoot to kill. Will the next night I heard a a loud crash someone had put a cement block through a window wall. When I got up to find what the problem was I found a unknow person with a pictch fork aim at my chest. I told him to leave but all he did was laugh and stab at me with his pitch fork. I had no place to run, the only action was to shoot. I did and he hit the floor dead. I then called the police at report a shooting 30 minutes later they showed up. They did the investiagtion and found that I had acted properly. Firearms do save lives without them it would be doubtful that I would be here.

 

[Tehchad]

The great thing about martial arts of whatever type, if you're young enough, fit enough, and have the time and money to learn them (few of us meet all those requirements) is it gives you an option for all situations, and it's an option that is less likely to get you arrested.

I'm not sure how many people know this.... In the US, 6 months of MA training gives you the title of a lethal weapon and you CAN go to jail just like using a firearm.
just FYI

 

[MacFall]

This is exactly why John Doe on the bloody street doesn't need to carry a gun. The average CCW permit holder is untrained in proper use of weapons and doesn't put in the time at a range to be a decent shot anyway. Their guns are, at best, as dangerous to them as they are to any would be mugger.

How fortunate you are, to know the details of hundreds of millions of people's proficiency with firearms. Did God Himself give you this superhuman power?

I hope it also came with other superhuman powers which will allow you to get to the scene of every single crime before it actually happens, unlike every other cop in the world who will be lucky to get there before the victim's blood dries.*







*Lest someone be personally offended by this, as I've mentioned before I don't blame individual police for the failure of the system to provide the service it is supposedly meant to provide. It's not their fault they are supposed to deal with five hundred non-violent "criminals" for every actual one.

 

[Tehchad]

You can solve that problem with one little word - practice.

Yes with a very big BUT. But you must incorporate situational stress into that. Without it, practice becomes merely plinking with paper targets.
Practice in a legit real life scenario is tough to fake unless it is your job. I'll default to Ruck's opinion here as I've never been in a situation like that.
I remember reading about a sniper competition recently that was held around Fort Carson. It was built to be a semi-real life test of shooters. In the dead of winter they worked for three days. It included full battle dress and timed (I'd say marches, but they were running) runs with dynamic targets. I'm sure there are ways to incorporate stress into training, but, other than this and 1 other, I have yet to see it.

Adrenaline does crazy things to the human body. To say that you can do xyz in given situation is pretty arrogant IMO.

I know a guy who has served in a unit similar to my father. He started teaching classes - mostly tactical/close quarters/etc - bc he was irate that men in his own unit would freeze in stressful situations. These are some of the elite in the US military and THEY are freezing up. These guys have seen battle.

Alright I'll /rant for now.